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Should missiles be long range weapons ?????
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GCU Grey Area



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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 18:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
we need to get behind ship and fire missiles point blank in order to hit target

Pretty much sums up how I used missiles in all the old X games, but then my favourite X2 ship was the Hydra. With front mounted Ion-D (& rear anti-missile A-PSG) it was rather lacking in hull cracking capabilities. Thankfully it also had a comparatively huge hold into which I could cram several hundred missiles - zap shields, launch missile, find another victim. Even in the later games when I flew ships with substantially heavier weaponry still used the same tactics. It's very helpful for conserving weapon energy and/or ammo (EBCs etc) if you're not using guns to chew through the hull. It's also a very fast way of destroying ships, really helps to up the kill count in situations where that matters (e.g. missions which pay a bonus per kill). Worked like a treat in every X game until XR - only Starflash has the speed to reliably hit fighters & it has all the stopping power of a snowball.

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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 21:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Were there ever these problems in Freespace 2 or Wing Commander? I don't seem to recall being frustrated with missiles in those games.

In fact, there were missiles that you would use close up and then there were missiles that you shot from greater range. Wing Commander Prophecy probably had it quite close to perfect with some really innovative missile types. I remember there was a large dumbfire that you could launch from extreme range to close near a group of enemy fighters, then activate to split into 4 FoF missiles for instance. There were close rance swarm missiles for taking down bombers and just generally better missile design and countermeasures! Sweet, sweet countermeasures!

The key was clearly defined ship and fighter roles. The same for Freespace 2.

The best thing for X4 or whatever it is that comes next is going to be forgetting that the Skunk ever existed and starting from there to redefine combat. Drones and fighters are going to need work, cap ships are going to need work and weapons are going to need work.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 00:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

GCU Grey Area wrote:
only Starflash has the speed to reliably hit fighters & it has all the stopping power of a snowball.


Unfortunately, this is oh-so-true - if you mean a fairly SMALL snowball. Very Happy The Sunstalkers have more appropriate damage stats for fighter-vs-fighter combat, but I hardly ever saw them hit - not only are they too slow to reliably hit a target, but they are too sluggish turning-wise, so a fighter changes direction once and shakes off the Sunstalker, which is thereafter turning a wide, lazy arc until its fuel runs out...


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 02:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:

and all fighters are using dumb fire missiles

Some fighters were just attacking me near the AL gate in DV and after I received the "Incoming Missile" warning, I changed direction and watched the 2 missile icons home in on my via the HUD's mini-map.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 03:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

A good tactic is to fire guided missiles as fighters go across the Skunk, they work really well in that way, they will vector correctly and rarely fail to impact.

For single warhead missiles it does not work if you fire to fighters approaching you head on, seems the missile will lock on the engines, and that I think is the reason they go around the target and try, and fail to chase it down.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 03:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@GCU Grey Area

Actually X3 games had much more effective missiles than XR.... I always used missiles to take out those fast M5 and M4 from distance because my M3 (Eclipse) was not quick enough to keep up. Missiles wore slow but at least they could hit their target from distance and they had their uses.

@Sparky

Only ships that can fire homing missiles are Balor and that M size bomber (cant remember the name). Perhaps it was one of those M bombers that attacked you (i seen them in OL i think) ? As far as i know all fighters use V-Crushes unless you have mod or it has been changed with patch when i was not playing.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 04:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I thought it was a Small Fighter but maybe it was the bomber. I'll try and force a repeat test tomorrow!


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 05:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

when i tested the Missile Defense behavior there were many incoming Sunstalkers im my Log, so there must be ships using them. but dont askt me which ones - didnt log that and this log is long gone..


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 06:29    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?

Edit: Maybe they switched Drostan (bomber) from Novas to Sunstalkers ? I remember at one point Drostan wore flying death stars and destroying everything in its path OOZ. It is possible that they nerffed missiles in order to prevent this from happening ?

Edit2: I just checked Roguey and it seem Golem is the only ship that can use Sunstalkers missiles...


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Last edited by Nikola515 on Fri, 17. Feb 17, 12:17; edited 2 times in total
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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 10:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?


Nah - it's just that Sunstalkers are so useless even the AI doesn't get anything out of them Very Happy Sunstalkers are too slow and clumsy to keep up with Skunk with any engine upgrades and a little booster use.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 12:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?


Nah - it's just that Sunstalkers are so useless even the AI doesn't get anything out of them Very Happy Sunstalkers are too slow and clumsy to keep up with Skunk with any engine upgrades and a little booster use.


Only ship i can hit with it is Xenon P Rolling Eyes I think someone with good moding skills should create missile rebalance mod where missiles would be more effective.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 12:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
@GCU Grey Area

Actually X3 games had much more effective missiles than XR.... I always used missiles to take out those fast M5 and M4 from distance because my M3 (Eclipse) was not quick enough to keep up. Missiles wore slow but at least they could hit their target from distance and they had their uses.

Yeah - X3 definitely had better missiles than XR, well mostly. Still remember being very disappointed to find out the X3 RGW was just a another bog standard 100k yield missile & it didn't actually have that fancy remote guided facility mentioned in it's encyclopedia description. Was very happy when I started playing XR that they'd finally made an RGW that worked properly (i.e. Novadrone).

Despite more effective missiles in X3 still preferred to use them primarily at point blank range. Always seemed a bit of a waste to fire them at targets which still had intact shields. Most X3 ships have substantially heavier shielding than hull strength. Would often take several missiles to hammer through both, whereas a single missile could take out the ship if it didn't have any shielding left. Conversely most guns were significantly more effective against shields than bare hull - hence the shoot shields, then missile hull approach. Do need a fast ship for that though - works great with a Mamba Raider, doubt it would work well with something as slow as an Eclipse.

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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 13:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Would often take several missiles to hammer through both, whereas a single missile could take out the ship if it didn't have any shielding left.

Not *necessarily* true - it's a matter of picking the right missile for the job - I typically (speaking X3TC/AP here, not XR) use missiles that will 1-shot-kill whenever possible - otherwise, I feel much as you do, that it's rather wasteful, and then I'd rather shield-strip first with guns, at which point I may as well finish the job with guns, too. Very Happy

One-shotters (non-exhaustive list) :
- M5: Hurricane, Wasp, Wilfdire (only if slowish M5), Disruptor (usually fast enough, except for the faster M5s)
- M4: Tempest, Banshee (shortish range, though)
- M3: RGW (I used to only ever sell them - then I realised just how good these are vs many M3s - not all, though), Beluga (same as RGW, pretty much), Thunderbolt (except vs well-shielded M3)
- M3+: As far as I'm concerned, forget it Very Happy Front and rear turrets to shoot with, and tougher shields...
Of course, there are some exceptions, and particularly Terran fat shields mess with ALL of the above, pretty much ^^ However, in pretty much every case the result is stripped shield and enough hull damage to seriously slow the target so it can be finished off with a bayonet or boot-knife.

OK, so back to Rebirth (especially since this is its forum - d'oh!) - erm... no one-shotters to be found anywhere, sorry! Oops Of course, the ship classes have been redefined, so even a Xenon N is a far cry from what it used to be! Still, as you and pretty much everyone else concurs... the new missiles are snowballs (which haven't been properly packed, either) Razz


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wwdragon





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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 15:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MIssiles should be LONG range.

They should also be FAR faster and FAR more maneuverable then what they are intended to kill.

A medium fighter missile should be able to easily chase down and hit a medium fighter for example.

They should also do enough damage to take down the shields in one hit.
Then two more hits to waste the hull.


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PostPosted: Fri, 17. Feb 17, 16:45    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I really don't understand this argument about missiles.

I was talking to a deer hunter one day who was bragging about the deer he shot at 300 yards. I did admit it was a "good" shot; however, there was exactly zero hunting prowess exhibited. I asked him to come back and tell me of the story of how he shot a deer at 30 feet, and then I would be impressed. With that in mind...

Quote:
MIssiles should be LONG range.

They should also be FAR faster and FAR more maneuverable then what they are intended to kill.

A medium fighter missile should be able to easily chase down and hit a medium fighter for example.

They should also do enough damage to take down the shields in one hit.
Then two more hits to waste the hull.


Press backspace to come to all stop. Left click over target box, press "R" three times - poof! Rinse, repeat. Absolutely zero chance of being in any danger whatsoever. Wow, that sounds like fun; let's all do it together now, <backspace-click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r...> Wohoo! That was what, fun?

Really? You guys want to take your overpowered Skunk with overpowered missiles that cannot miss into a fight you have absolutely no chance of loosing and then have the nerve to complain that Egosoft can't program smart enough AI? Am I the only one on the forum who can see the hypocracy in that? Are you all really that small-minded?

No, when you ladies take your skunk armed with a single mk1 weapon (not inertial hammer), with mk1 shields and engines, into a fight with a riot squad that is far enough away from a station you can't RSLG to, pry your hand off your joystick or mouse and come start a new thread and write about how you survived. I promise, we'll talk, I'll be impressed.

Until then,
TTFN
Thu

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