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Should missiles be long range weapons ?????
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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 22:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
Of course I understand! You think I'm stupid? Rolling Eyes

My point is that Egosoft shouldn't be using kludges to fix the ramming issues, they should be working to improve the AI. We are talking about the future here, you know, since the past won't be changed. Wink

And for the record, I found the collision issues in the X3 games far less aggravating than the bouncy-bounce nonsense we now have. Try hopping aboard a capital ship and flying through Toride sometime. Razz


ROFL, see my edit2 in my previous post, btw, I don't think you are stupid, I was just exagerating my expressions.

Cheers pal Very Happy


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So true... We can just hope.. and let our hopes be crushed in a near future again hehe (but really hope not)


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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 23:30    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

mr.WHO wrote:
I mean they need 2+ years to fix Sucellus properly use it's main weapon - it yet to be fixed in upcoming 4.10 patch.

It doesn't seem try to perma-stafe, if that's what you mean, but it is at least lining up and using the IHC periodically during a battle.


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 01:00    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
Even X3 dogfighting wore much more fun than in XR

Got to disagree with that. Dogfighting in X3 was trivially easy - enemies generally flew in predictable flight paths at constant speed. ...


Gotta agree with Nikola515. While the enemy fighters may be a bit more sneaky in XR, they're paper thin with unimpressive weapons. A few Astrobees, Sunstalkers and Starflashes, and you can easily weed out most of a large pack before engaging. Once the Skunk has good shields and weapons, killing packs of fighters in XR is child's play. If you're having difficulty with them, you're not doing it right. Razz

As for TC and AP, you seem to forget how challenging it could be to take out a pack of enemy M3's, especially those armed with PBG's. Not to mention their ability to shoot down most of your missiles with their turrets.

I'm with Nikola and Nanook here. I also find X3 fighting both more challenging and interesting, and I'm playing it again at the moment, so I'm not subject to vague faded recollections Smile In Rebirth the fighters may be sneakier, yes, but not only are they very squishy, the Skunk's built-in booster also swings the battle heavily in the player's favour, and the recent(ish) addition of boosting for AI enemy ships doesn't even come close to compensating. In Rebirth "Oh I seem to be in a spot of trouble" - no problem, hit boost and I'm outta there, and if using shield boosting drones this is even more readily available. Yes, I know that you also get the Turbo Booster in the previous Xs, but firstly it's an expensive upgrade that you need to go buy (from one race only, so in some starts it's not even available to the player without considerable work first), and it's also a bit trickier to use than the almost-no-skill-required (so long as you don't leave it too late, shields-wise) boosting in XR. Ultimately, in X3 I find that I have to pick my battles carefully, especially when flying a fighter, so as not to be surprised by PBGs, MDs, PBEs (these even bothersome to a corvette being swarmed by Ms and Ls, for instance - shield disappears in no time at all, followed by installed components), whereas I find XR dogfighting trivially and boringly easy.


Nanook wrote:
ezra-r wrote:
Gotta disagree with you all lot both etc etc.. Laughing

There is not much difference between both games in dogfighting, the real difference is in Rebirth at least they don't explode when they bump into you (any more). ...


Which they should, btw! Ramming should be a valid tactic; bouncing billiard balls is just silly. In other words, the AI hasn't really changed. Egosoft dealt with it by removing the last vestiges of realism. Rolling Eyes

+1. Make that +100! I also find rubber bumper-ships to be silly beyond belief - collision damage is among the things I miss the most (along with my mind, of course...) As for this "approach" to "dealing with" the issue: it's much the same as Egg-O'Soft's "solution" to bugs with reassigning architects - instead of fixing the underlying problem, they made it impossible to reassign an architect once placed on a CV. That's not "fixing", that's "sweeping under the rug". Same thing with the removal of collision damage, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 23:08    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic. All though some missiles wore sluggish in X3 ships couldn't simply boost or run away as easy from combat. Also game was more balanced and you couldn't take on capital ships as easy as in XR.

Personally in my opinion they should develop strong and effective missiles as well as missiles defenses. In XR I think that they intentually made missiles infective and useless (ships can easy doge and run away from them) because they don't have any countermeasures.

I think this is just lazy way of attempting to fix problem that actually made more damage than good in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 23:23    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic


i have never seen an NPC Ship Strafing. or reacting to Incoming Projectiles which did not hit yet. or, when they had a faster Ship, fly far away so all Enemies are nicely lined up and could be takan care of one after another instead of simultaneously. or avoid being the victim of that tactic.


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 23:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

UniTrader wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic


i have never seen an NPC Ship Strafing. or reacting to Incoming Projectiles which did not hit yet. or, when they had a faster Ship, fly far away so all Enemies are nicely lined up and could be takan care of one after another instead of simultaneously. or avoid being the victim of that tactic.


I was thinking more about stats such as speed,energy,shelads,weapons.... Skynk can use missiles that other ships can't use as same as weapons/shealds/boosts. Also NPC ships cant board other ships too but that is more AI problem....


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 23:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

UniTrader wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic


i have never seen an NPC Ship Strafing. or reacting to Incoming Projectiles which did not hit yet. or, when they had a faster Ship, fly far away so all Enemies are nicely lined up and could be takan care of one after another instead of simultaneously. or avoid being the victim of that tactic.


Yet most M3's and all larger ships in X3 had turrets that would shoot down missiles rather effectively. And in AP, the fighter AI was upgraded so that even those without turrets would attempt to shoot down missiles, too. In XR, there are no turrets, not even on the P, a supposed M6-class 'fighter', or the Skunk. The reason missiles are made so ineffective in XR is because there are no defenses against them.

And you might want to go back and play a bit of AP to refresh your memory. Fighter groups are much more likely to stay together rather than get "nicely lined up" than in previous games. The only way to get them separated is to individually aggravate each of the ships in a group. That even sometimes works in XR, btw. Wink


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PostPosted: Wed, 15. Feb 17, 23:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic.

The Skunk's ability to boost out of trouble, assuming it has enough shield at the point it wants to, is less of a player-perk than manual and automatic emergency jumps. In X3 we can jump around to pick fights, leave fights or re-position for re-engaging on a whim, even if we don't use the Turbo Boost. Other things like ramming and strafing have already been covered.


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 00:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

And so can the NPC's, btw. Not to mention they can simply spawn new ships at will. The ability of the player to escape was absolutely necessary due to the game mechanics. Fly through X-472 sometime and start killing Q's. It's not long after one dies that a new one appears. As for the so-called emergency jumps - half the time they didn't even happen because the AI couldn't find a free gate. Any ship entering or leaving a gate prevented an E-jump from happening. So none of that really gave the player much of an advantage as you seem to imply.


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 00:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
The ability of the player to escape was absolutely necessary due to the game mechanics.

I agree. This lines up with my own view that X3's combat is a lot "less forgiving" than XR's - there's less margin for error - make a mistake (especially in a dogfight ie. combat in a fighter) and chances are, that's that, you're dead. But I guess I can only speak to my own experience, which is: despite the fact that I've played a LOT more X3s than I have XR, and thus it can be assumed that I've had a lot "more practice" in those games, I still find the combat in them far more engrossing and challenging than in XR - the latter I find absurdly easy (even despite having had so much less "practice" - and even despite the fact that I only play XR on the hardest setting, while TC and AP don't even have such a setting) and downright "arcadey" (although in most arcade games, at least the ones I grew up with, you took one hit and that was a life down... so in fact I find XR dogfighting even less than 'arcadey'.) Ultimately, the point-counterpoint is really not that relevant (imo), in light of the personal player experience - for instance, the fact remains that to me XR's combat is lame and easy, regardless of the supposedly "objective" comparisons of individual points and aspects. However, seeing just how much easier I find XR (as in "absolutely no contest"), I very much struggle to understand how some people can find XR's combat more difficult than X3's... it seems utterly inconceivable to me. (Talk about "different strokes", eh? Very Happy )


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 01:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
In X3 NPC ships could do everything same as player ships. Only thing that mattered was players skill. This was a part that that made things fun and made combat more realistic.

The Skunk's ability to boost out of trouble, assuming it has enough shield at the point it wants to, is less of a player-perk than manual and automatic emergency jumps. In X3 we can jump around to pick fights, leave fights or re-position for re-engaging on a whim, even if we don't use the Turbo Boost. Other things like ramming and strafing have already been covered.


You can boost without problem only with 5 to 10% shields left to safe distance (i do it all the time). While in X3 there is charging time and you can't evade weapons as easy as fleeing with boost. It was still more challenging in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 11:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
I very much struggle to understand how some people can find XR's combat more difficult than X3's... it seems utterly inconceivable to me. (Talk about "different strokes", eh? Very Happy )

Essentially, in X3 I had access to ships with firepower of an entirely different order of magnitude.

In my last game of AP this was a Heavy Dragon with 6x ISR + 2x PBG for main guns & a 4x PBE turret. Fighter class enemies would evaporate in seconds, often while they were still well outside effective range for their own weapons. Didn't really need missiles as a finishing move in that ship, but if I ever wanted to I had a good selection of missiles to choose from, depending on target's speed & hull strength.

In contrast in XR the only missile I've found in any way reliable in a dogfight is the Starflash & it's severely lacking in punch. Despite having a hypothetical 9k warhead, it generally takes at least half a dozen of them to slowly chew through e.g. a Maelchon with a 29k hull.

As for running away, not only did I have a jumpdrive in X3 (essential in X3 because mission timers tended to assume you had one, they don't in XR so never got round to building one), but also had a superior booster which ran on e-cells (rather than draining shield energy) which made it much more reliable for evasion if a dogfight was going badly.

In general, in XR I feel much less well armed & the universe feels like a much more dangerous place (by the way, this is a good thing IMO). Pirate swarms of 30-40 ships are a frequent sight often including capital ships, whereas in X3 I'd only see those sort of numbers if they were spawned for a mission. Otherwise the X3 universe was a remarkably peaceful place, so much so I'd often go out of my way to antagonise one of the main species (generally either Paranid or Split, often both) just so I'd have some sort of persistent threat out there.

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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 12:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

GCU Grey Area wrote:
RAVEN.myst wrote:
I very much struggle to understand how some people can find XR's combat more difficult than X3's... it seems utterly inconceivable to me. (Talk about "different strokes", eh? Very Happy )

Essentially, in X3 I had access to ships with firepower of an entirely different order of magnitude.

In my last game of AP this was a Heavy Dragon with 6x ISR + 2x PBG for main guns & a 4x PBE turret. Fighter class enemies would evaporate in seconds, often while they were still well outside effective range for their own weapons. Didn't really need missiles as a finishing move in that ship, but if I ever wanted to I had a good selection of missiles to choose from, depending on target's speed & hull strength.

In contrast in XR the only missile I've found in any way reliable in a dogfight is the Starflash & it's severely lacking in punch. Despite having a hypothetical 9k warhead, it generally takes at least half a dozen of them to slowly chew through e.g. a Maelchon with a 29k hull.

As for running away, not only did I have a jumpdrive in X3 (essential in X3 because mission timers tended to assume you had one, they don't in XR so never got round to building one), but also had a superior booster which ran on e-cells (rather than draining shield energy) which made it much more reliable for evasion if a dogfight was going badly.

In general, in XR I feel much less well armed & the universe feels like a much more dangerous place (by the way, this is a good thing IMO). Pirate swarms of 30-40 ships are a frequent sight often including capital ships, whereas in X3 I'd only see those sort of numbers if they were spawned for a mission. Otherwise the X3 universe was a remarkably peaceful place, so much so I'd often go out of my way to antagonise one of the main species (generally either Paranid or Split, often both) just so I'd have some sort of persistent threat out there.


[WARNING: For "dramatic effect" and (and hopefully some small entertainment value), the following is delivered in a sort of "impassioned" tone - no offence is intended. Wink ]

Aaaaaand yet AGAIN come the (IMO) irrelevant specifics - like I said, these are meaningless in the face of the (subjective, as previously noted) experience of it: in the previous (dare I say "true") Xs, I find the combat more challenging and interesting, and no amount of analyzing or arguing the point is going to change that fact (the only thing that COULD change it, would be if XR's combat were to be made a lot more nuanced, but beyond simply adding more numbers or even improving AI - an overhaul would be needed, probably to the entire engine.) Also, I don't really consider bullying fighters from within a heavy corvette as "dogfighting", so to me the comparison is hardly fair - of COURSE you have a whole higher order of magnitude of firepower available at that level, but that's not the case if you keep it to fighters (yes, I know - my definition, not yours - but arguably closer to the generally accepted meaning of "dogfight".)

Regarding tactical jumps: this has already been covered by Nikola - yes, they are available, but sometimes having to survive those 10 seconds is the problem, a lot tougher than keeping an eye on shield capacity and boosting sensibly; *also as previously covered* (this time by me), the Turbo Booster in the previous Xs is *not universally available*, but rather is a costly upgrade with restricted availability (so, if playing as an enemy of Split, it's not even available) - unlike the Skunk's booster which is built-in by default and for free (though, of course, affected implicitly by shield upgrades.) Also, I find the Freelancer-style booster on the Skunk to be easier to use than its older counterpart (in terms of its response dynamics) and easier to keep flying with (I'm not, however, saying that this is a bad thing - in this case I'd have to concede that "easier" is in fact "better", IMO) - the previous TB really puts you very nearly into a linear ballistic trajectory. Granted, it IS very powerful - as it damn well should be, given that it costs about the same as or more than the fighter it's fitted onto! And even though it's using ECs instead of shields, those are also used by the JD, and they use up cargo space which may be needed for missiles/ammo - so it's not free to use, while the shield-based one can be kept topped up more or less indefinitely by rotating through a handful of shield support drones, which very seldom get killed.

Speaking of missiles: yes, I totally agree that the Rebirth missiles are lame - and STILL the combat is too easy for me (ie. just as in your Heavy Dragon, I don't need them as an offensive weapon - they make an adequate defensive measure, though, forcing an enemy into an evasive pattern instead of focusing on me), so just as well, as more effective missiles would make it even more of a joke. On the other hand, the Skunk can carry, on average, way more missiles than a fighter can, after installed shields, guns, ammo (if applicable), ECs for jumping/boosting (if applicable), drones (if opted for), and any other sundries that may be carried - therefore, the "decoy" functionality of the missiles is very extensive, ie. I can use them to keep fighters off my back for very long, ie. again making for easier combat.

I totally agree that feeling small and the universe being a dangerous place is a good thing (VERY good, IMO) in a game - my point is, Rebirth totally fails to deliver this feeling to me - I never feel threatened in Rebirth, not even in the early game before upgrades, unless I am strafing a Plasma Jet wielding capital in my Skunk - but then again, strafe any M1 or M2 or most M7s in previous games in a fighter, and you'll be crapping bricks just as much. On the other hand, flying a starting ship in most gamestarts through Pirate Highway can be an utterly hair-raising experience, and often results in being forced to turn back or be destroyed.

As for pirate swarms: thank you for cutting to the heart of it - here's the thing: I find a Carrack or a Galleon and a handful of fighters (which CAN DESTROY MY STATIONS/PLEXES, by the way, and all the ships I have docked therein, let's not forget) a damn sight more lethal than a 30-40 pirate swarm (with or without capital ships) in Rebirth. Again, please understand that this is MY SUBJECTIVE, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, and trying to change my mind by proffering pseudo-facts is a complete waste of time - yours AND mine. Razz Conversely, all I've just explained is likewise probably irrelevant to your point of view (and likewise a comparable waste of time - mine AND yours Very Happy .)

My point here is this: I've just counterpointed all your points - was it worth it? Did it accomplish anything? Did it change your mind, or your perception? Did, in fact, either of us learn anything from this? I'm guessing the likely answer to all of those is 'no'. Your personal perspective remains unchanged (you still find XR combat more challenging, inexplicably to me), as does mine (I still find X2/X3 combat more challenging - probably equally inexplicably to you) - so why even bother? Why waste the time and effort? [Well, actually, perhaps for the fun of it...] Like I said in the very line you quoted: "different strokes..." Wink [OK, that's the end of the wild-eyed "ranty" bit, hehehe. I put away my wooden spoon, now...]

Btw, yes I do agree that it's generally necessary to antagonize factions to make things more lively in X3 (incidentally, Paranid are also often the object of my... "mischief", with Split a frequent second Very Happy heheh. However, I also always add either Terran or Argon to the mix, depending on what side I'm playing) - but then, I used to have to do the same in Rebirth (before I got bored of it - never took more than 5 weeks, and that was the one-time record - the rest of the times, bell tolled after about 2 weeks), so that's a wash in any case - those "cancel each other out".

So go on, enjoy whichever game's combat tickles your fancy the most - regardless of how little sense it makes to me or anyone else. Just don't try to convince me that it makes sense - because it really doesn't, you know... Razz *ducks*
Good hunting Wink


EDIT: Just to get myself on topic for a brief second: my answer to the OP question is: yes, I think the missiles should have better range (even though that would make the combat even easier) - at the moment, their puny ranges don't make a whole lot of sense to me. Unless they're only meant to be used on New Year (Chinese or otherwise), 4th of July, and the like...


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 16:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The moment missiles are made long range, is the moment that a whole load of people turn up and complain that they now hate how missiles are used in Rebirth.

I should imagine that lots of people like to get up close and personal with their weapons and missiles.

In real life the whole aim is to protect the aircraft by being able to destroy a target at the greatest possible distance. This may not give rise to great gameplay. Thought that is a question of personal preference.

Sure have some long range powerful and fast missiles for those that want them.


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PostPosted: Thu, 16. Feb 17, 17:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
The moment missiles are made long range, is the moment that a whole load of people turn up and complain that they now hate how missiles are used in Rebirth.

I should imagine that lots of people like to get up close and personal with their weapons and missiles.

In real life the whole aim is to protect the aircraft by being able to destroy a target at the greatest possible distance. This may not give rise to great gameplay. Thought that is a question of personal preference.

Sure have some long range powerful and fast missiles for those that want them.


What is the point of having missiles in XR when main weapons can do the job than ?

If you look at market when it comes to aircraft or space combat simulations (at least successful ones) missile are used as fast long or mid range weapons. We are not talking about 200 to 300km (like in real life) but around 5 to 10 km.

Edit: This whole thing reminds me on that stupid highway mini game (thank God it was removed) where we need to get behind small ship to get faster Rolling Eyes But in this case we need to get behind ship and fire missiles point blank in order to hit target Laughing

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