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Should missiles be long range weapons ?????
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Nikola515





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PostPosted: Sun, 12. Feb 17, 11:26    Post subject: Should missiles be long range weapons ????? Reply with quote Print

One of reasons why i find XR combat boring is missiles it self. For example when im chasing small or medium fighters i need to be pretty much point blank behind ship to fire the missiles. And than it still misses becuse it keeps flying around ship instead of hitting it. Also some missiles are too slow to keep up with ships. Using missiles from long range is almost always miss unles you are targeting L or XL ships Evil or Very Mad
Majority of time Skunk is faster than any missile that it fires Rolling Eyes

Anyway i think missiles should be used as long range weapons like in real life or rest of games. Main weapons should be used as short or medium range weapons.... In addition to that missiles should be much more faster. At this point it takes too long for missiles to hit target making gameplay extremely boring after a while Crying or Very sad


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radcapricorn





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PostPosted: Sun, 12. Feb 17, 17:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

IMHO for this to be effective would require more versatility in ship classes, as well as some additional equipment. Also, what would you do if such "long range" missiles were fired at you? There are no rear turrets, nor Missile Defense Mosquito.
In short, I think this would only make sense in another game. X4 perhaps? Because the problem is not in the missiles, it's in the fact that we only have two types of ships: small and fast, and big and slow. Oh, and a standalone special type: the Skunk.

The only "long range" missile that's in the game (Novadrone) doesn't make much sense either, as it is a de-facto capital-cripple-killing device which the AI is too proud to waste firepower on.

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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Sun, 12. Feb 17, 18:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If AI was smarter... I think missiles are now on the same level as AI is, that's why they miss that often. Very Happy


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Nikola515





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PostPosted: Sun, 12. Feb 17, 19:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@radcapricorn

Ading some flares or missile jamming software would do the trick for now. But only hand full of capitals are using missiles and all fighters are using dumb fire missiles as majority of capitals( no need for skunk to worry).... Also missiles shouldn't be able to follow you like they do now. For example in real life if missile misses it wont be able to turn around and hunt you like in XR. I agree with you 100% Novas are way too OP. I would love to see them as fast dumb fire missiles with extreme low rate of fire. So we have one shot and hope that it hits (we will actually have to aim from distance). I think balancing missiles in XR(use XR as guinea pig for test) would help X4/XR2 as well as make enjoyable battle in future.

@ezra-r

Perhaps they should add small area of effects and proximity fuses instead of fixing AI ? I lost all hope in Ego when it comes of making better AI Crying or Very sad


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Slashman





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PostPosted: Mon, 13. Feb 17, 16:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:

Perhaps they should add small area of effects and proximity fuses instead of fixing AI ? I lost all hope in Ego when it comes of making better AI Crying or Very sad


This is kind of sad. I remember enemy ships in WC Prophecy and Freespace 2 using missiles and missile defenses in very convincing ways. In FS 2 especially, cap ships would shoot your torps or missiles down and you would actually sometimes need to clear an area of turrets before firing your torpedoes.

Both games also had special ships for intercepting torpedoes. Although I really liked the WC Prophecy interceptor with it's solid rocket booster for closing on bombers before they got into torp range of your cap ships.


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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Mon, 13. Feb 17, 23:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Even when I played wing commander 2, 13 diskettes? missiles were wonderful.

I think Egosoft keeps using the same programming for many of these type of things since ages, porting it from one engine to another, and thus AI keeps being crap and missiles keep being crap, and AI ship manuvering keep being crap and ships bumping crap and ships incapable of going in formation crap, etc.


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Nikola515





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 10:10    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I think they should start from the scratch when it comes to combat in general..... Even X3 dogfighting wore much more fun than in XR. Only thing i like in XR is destroyable modules.... Missiles should be more realistic as well as weapons and i would love to see lock on time as well as multilock for missiles. Also some hud animations would be nice as well(for the next title of course).


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GCU Grey Area



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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 12:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
Even X3 dogfighting wore much more fun than in XR

Got to disagree with that. Dogfighting in X3 was trivially easy - enemies generally flew in predictable flight paths at constant speed.

Not remotely difficult to take out an entire Xenon Invasion fleet with a single Mamba Raider, with logistical support from an Elephant parked on the other side of a gate & a second, unarmed, MR used as a high speed cargo pod for inflight rearmament - to conserve weapon energy I used a LOT of missiles in those missions (i.e. strip shields with guns, then finish with a missile). Also needed quite a few to deal with the Jumping Js.

In contrast in XR I have to think very carefully if I want to engage more than a handful of enemy fighters. At times they're downright sneaky, activating boosters just when I've got them in the crosshairs & in general are much more evasive in a dogfight.

However, do agree with this:
Nikola515 wrote:
Missiles should be more realistic as well as weapons and i would love to see lock on time as well as multilock for missiles.


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MegaJohnny





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 20:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Got to disagree with that. Dogfighting in X3 was trivially easy - enemies generally flew in predictable flight paths at constant speed.

Not remotely difficult to take out an entire Xenon Invasion fleet with a single Mamba Raider, with logistical support from an Elephant parked on the other side of a gate & a second, unarmed, MR used as a high speed cargo pod for inflight rearmament - to conserve weapon energy I used a LOT of missiles in those missions (i.e. strip shields with guns, then finish with a missile). Also needed quite a few to deal with the Jumping Js.

In contrast in XR I have to think very carefully if I want to engage more than a handful of enemy fighters. At times they're downright sneaky, activating boosters just when I've got them in the crosshairs & in general are much more evasive in a dogfight.

However, do agree with this:

It's amazing how far a bit of corkscrewing and strafing will go for dogfighting. So happy Ego finally taught the AI how to use the strafe engines.

I was mucking around with AI scripts once, and got some fighters to join formation with me - when you turn the Skunk's nose, you can see them make use of both maneuvering and strafing to get into position. It looks really cool.


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Nanook
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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 20:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:
Even X3 dogfighting wore much more fun than in XR

Got to disagree with that. Dogfighting in X3 was trivially easy - enemies generally flew in predictable flight paths at constant speed. ...


Gotta agree with Nikola515. While the enemy fighters may be a bit more sneaky in XR, they're paper thin with unimpressive weapons. A few Astrobees, Sunstalkers and Starflashes, and you can easily weed out most of a large pack before engaging. Once the Skunk has good shields and weapons, killing packs of fighters in XR is child's play. If you're having difficulty with them, you're not doing it right. Razz

As for TC and AP, you seem to forget how challenging it could be to take out a pack of enemy M3's, especially those armed with PBG's. Not to mention their ability to shoot down most of your missiles with their turrets.


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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 20:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Gotta disagree with you all lot both etc etc.. Laughing

There is not much difference between both games in dogfighting, the real difference is in Rebirth at least they don't explode when they bump into you (any more). Dogfighting with numbers in rebirth can be lethal too, but you can boost out and keep shooting missiles at them from a distance, but the difference in AI of both is neglicable, booth go straight towards you and they turn around a bit in certain situations.


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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 21:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ezra-r wrote:
Gotta disagree with you all lot both etc etc.. Laughing

There is not much difference between both games in dogfighting, the real difference is in Rebirth at least they don't explode when they bump into you (any more). ...


Which they should, btw! Ramming should be a valid tactic; bouncing billiard balls is just silly. In other words, the AI hasn't really changed. Egosoft dealt with it by removing the last vestiges of realism. Rolling Eyes


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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 21:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
ezra-r wrote:
Gotta disagree with you all lot both etc etc.. Laughing

There is not much difference between both games in dogfighting, the real difference is in Rebirth at least they don't explode when they bump into you (any more). ...


Which they should, btw! Ramming should be a valid tactic; bouncing billiard balls is just silly. In other words, the AI hasn't really changed. Egosoft dealt with it by removing the last vestiges of realism. Rolling Eyes


We have discussed this previously, and I understand you but there is a HUGE reason why ramming should never be valid in present X games, which is:

Ramming could be a valid tactic if AI was smart and used that as a tactic, not beucase AI is dump and prone to ramming because of it.

See the difference? You see ramming as in pvp, both smart or semi smart oponents, and one of them see an advantage if ramming oponnent in a certain scenario, that is eons away from happening with current Egosoft AI, do you understand? Razz

Edit: If Egosoft added such realism, game would suck even more, they need to work around from the deficits of their AI, otherwise this would be like you driving a truck straight on and flies splashing all over your windshield.

Edit2: I have an example for you, in which they removed something in favour of realism, its not dogfighting but the example works to prove my point.

In the latest 4.x patch (the released one), someone in Egosoft, in a spark of genius idea (not), can't figure why on earth they did this, decided to add realsim to AI cap ships boosting, that is, they would not go through asteroids any more, at least while you are in zone. What happens? Go inside one of your cap ships and tell it to boost to darn hot air or around HoL, and you'll see an infamous pinball.

Now, I can understand such realism, if AI would know how to manuver and fly as we would, avoiding such rocky paths to not bump, but this "spark" or realism only makes me feel this is the most embarassing thing I have seen in a space game ever, I mean, it couldn't look crappier. Funny thing is they even decided to let that in the game (because they don't play it at all so they don't feel it like the players do).


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Last edited by ezra-r on Tue, 14. Feb 17, 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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Nanook
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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Of course I understand! You think I'm stupid? Rolling Eyes

My point is that Egosoft shouldn't be using kludges to fix the ramming issues, they should be working to improve the AI. We are talking about the future here, you know, since the past won't be changed. Wink

And for the record, I found the collision issues in the X3 games far less aggravating than the bouncy-bounce nonsense we now have. Try hopping aboard a capital ship and flying through Toride sometime. Razz


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mr.WHO





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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Feb 17, 22:00    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The problem is that the combat logic and mechanics haven't changed much since X2 - I'm very skeptical that they make it better in X4 Sad

I mean they need 2+ years to fix Sucellus properly use it's main weapon - it yet to be fixed in upcoming 4.10 patch.

If they couldn't fix someting THAT basic how can you expect they improve combat rarther than salvage that all broken AI logic that they already have since X2?

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