Should missiles be long range weapons ?????

General discussions about X Rebirth.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7764
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Thu, 16. Feb 17, 17:57

Nikola515 wrote:we need to get behind ship and fire missiles point blank in order to hit target
Pretty much sums up how I used missiles in all the old X games, but then my favourite X2 ship was the Hydra. With front mounted Ion-D (& rear anti-missile A-PSG) it was rather lacking in hull cracking capabilities. Thankfully it also had a comparatively huge hold into which I could cram several hundred missiles - zap shields, launch missile, find another victim. Even in the later games when I flew ships with substantially heavier weaponry still used the same tactics. It's very helpful for conserving weapon energy and/or ammo (EBCs etc) if you're not using guns to chew through the hull. It's also a very fast way of destroying ships, really helps to up the kill count in situations where that matters (e.g. missions which pay a bonus per kill). Worked like a treat in every X game until XR - only Starflash has the speed to reliably hit fighters & it has all the stopping power of a snowball.

Slashman
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue, 12. Oct 10, 03:31
x4

Post by Slashman » Thu, 16. Feb 17, 20:22

Were there ever these problems in Freespace 2 or Wing Commander? I don't seem to recall being frustrated with missiles in those games.

In fact, there were missiles that you would use close up and then there were missiles that you shot from greater range. Wing Commander Prophecy probably had it quite close to perfect with some really innovative missile types. I remember there was a large dumbfire that you could launch from extreme range to close near a group of enemy fighters, then activate to split into 4 FoF missiles for instance. There were close rance swarm missiles for taking down bombers and just generally better missile design and countermeasures! Sweet, sweet countermeasures!

The key was clearly defined ship and fighter roles. The same for Freespace 2.

The best thing for X4 or whatever it is that comes next is going to be forgetting that the Skunk ever existed and starting from there to redefine combat. Drones and fighters are going to need work, cap ships are going to need work and weapons are going to need work.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Thu, 16. Feb 17, 23:53

GCU Grey Area wrote: only Starflash has the speed to reliably hit fighters & it has all the stopping power of a snowball.
Unfortunately, this is oh-so-true - if you mean a fairly SMALL snowball. :D The Sunstalkers have more appropriate damage stats for fighter-vs-fighter combat, but I hardly ever saw them hit - not only are they too slow to reliably hit a target, but they are too sluggish turning-wise, so a fighter changes direction once and shakes off the Sunstalker, which is thereafter turning a wide, lazy arc until its fuel runs out...
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 8074
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
x4

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 01:38

Nikola515 wrote: and all fighters are using dumb fire missiles
Some fighters were just attacking me near the AL gate in DV and after I received the "Incoming Missile" warning, I changed direction and watched the 2 missile icons home in on my via the HUD's mini-map.

User avatar
Santi
Moderator (DevNet)
Moderator (DevNet)
Posts: 4046
Joined: Tue, 13. Feb 07, 21:06
x4

Post by Santi » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 02:34

A good tactic is to fire guided missiles as fighters go across the Skunk, they work really well in that way, they will vector correctly and rarely fail to impact.

For single warhead missiles it does not work if you fire to fighters approaching you head on, seems the missile will lock on the engines, and that I think is the reason they go around the target and try, and fail to chase it down.
A por ellos que son pocos y cobardes

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 02:41

@GCU Grey Area

Actually X3 games had much more effective missiles than XR.... I always used missiles to take out those fast M5 and M4 from distance because my M3 (Eclipse) was not quick enough to keep up. Missiles wore slow but at least they could hit their target from distance and they had their uses.

@Sparky

Only ships that can fire homing missiles are Balor and that M size bomber (cant remember the name). Perhaps it was one of those M bombers that attacked you (i seen them in OL i think) ? As far as i know all fighters use V-Crushes unless you have mod or it has been changed with patch when i was not playing.
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 8074
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
x4

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 03:02

I thought it was a Small Fighter but maybe it was the bomber. I'll try and force a repeat test tomorrow!

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 04:25

when i tested the Missile Defense behavior there were many incoming Sunstalkers im my Log, so there must be ships using them. but dont askt me which ones - didnt log that and this log is long gone..
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 05:29

It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?

Edit: Maybe they switched Drostan (bomber) from Novas to Sunstalkers ? I remember at one point Drostan wore flying death stars and destroying everything in its path OOZ. It is possible that they nerffed missiles in order to prevent this from happening ?

Edit2: I just checked Roguey and it seem Golem is the only ship that can use Sunstalkers missiles...
Last edited by Nikola515 on Fri, 17. Feb 17, 11:17, edited 2 times in total.
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 09:04

Nikola515 wrote:It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?
Nah - it's just that Sunstalkers are so useless even the AI doesn't get anything out of them :D Sunstalkers are too slow and clumsy to keep up with Skunk with any engine upgrades and a little booster use.
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

User avatar
Nikola515
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri, 4. May 12, 07:40
x4

Post by Nikola515 » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 11:02

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Nikola515 wrote:It would be interesting to know witch ships are using them ? Perhaps their aim is way off or they are acting like dumb fire missiles?
Nah - it's just that Sunstalkers are so useless even the AI doesn't get anything out of them :D Sunstalkers are too slow and clumsy to keep up with Skunk with any engine upgrades and a little booster use.
Only ship i can hit with it is Xenon P :roll: I think someone with good moding skills should create missile rebalance mod where missiles would be more effective.
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7764
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 11:46

Nikola515 wrote:@GCU Grey Area

Actually X3 games had much more effective missiles than XR.... I always used missiles to take out those fast M5 and M4 from distance because my M3 (Eclipse) was not quick enough to keep up. Missiles wore slow but at least they could hit their target from distance and they had their uses.
Yeah - X3 definitely had better missiles than XR, well mostly. Still remember being very disappointed to find out the X3 RGW was just a another bog standard 100k yield missile & it didn't actually have that fancy remote guided facility mentioned in it's encyclopedia description. Was very happy when I started playing XR that they'd finally made an RGW that worked properly (i.e. Novadrone).

Despite more effective missiles in X3 still preferred to use them primarily at point blank range. Always seemed a bit of a waste to fire them at targets which still had intact shields. Most X3 ships have substantially heavier shielding than hull strength. Would often take several missiles to hammer through both, whereas a single missile could take out the ship if it didn't have any shielding left. Conversely most guns were significantly more effective against shields than bare hull - hence the shoot shields, then missile hull approach. Do need a fast ship for that though - works great with a Mamba Raider, doubt it would work well with something as slow as an Eclipse.

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 12:09

GCU Grey Area wrote: Would often take several missiles to hammer through both, whereas a single missile could take out the ship if it didn't have any shielding left.
Not *necessarily* true - it's a matter of picking the right missile for the job - I typically (speaking X3TC/AP here, not XR) use missiles that will 1-shot-kill whenever possible - otherwise, I feel much as you do, that it's rather wasteful, and then I'd rather shield-strip first with guns, at which point I may as well finish the job with guns, too. :D

One-shotters (non-exhaustive list) :
- M5: Hurricane, Wasp, Wilfdire (only if slowish M5), Disruptor (usually fast enough, except for the faster M5s)
- M4: Tempest, Banshee (shortish range, though)
- M3: RGW (I used to only ever sell them - then I realised just how good these are vs many M3s - not all, though), Beluga (same as RGW, pretty much), Thunderbolt (except vs well-shielded M3)
- M3+: As far as I'm concerned, forget it :D Front and rear turrets to shoot with, and tougher shields...
Of course, there are some exceptions, and particularly Terran fat shields mess with ALL of the above, pretty much ^^ However, in pretty much every case the result is stripped shield and enough hull damage to seriously slow the target so it can be finished off with a bayonet or boot-knife.

OK, so back to Rebirth (especially since this is its forum - d'oh!) - erm... no one-shotters to be found anywhere, sorry! :S Of course, the ship classes have been redefined, so even a Xenon N is a far cry from what it used to be! Still, as you and pretty much everyone else concurs... the new missiles are snowballs (which haven't been properly packed, either) :P
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

wwdragon
Posts: 3746
Joined: Mon, 1. Oct 07, 02:18
x4

Post by wwdragon » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 14:39

MIssiles should be LONG range.

They should also be FAR faster and FAR more maneuverable then what they are intended to kill.

A medium fighter missile should be able to easily chase down and hit a medium fighter for example.

They should also do enough damage to take down the shields in one hit.
Then two more hits to waste the hull.
Editing posts since long before I remember.

Thufar
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Post by Thufar » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 15:45

I really don't understand this argument about missiles.

I was talking to a deer hunter one day who was bragging about the deer he shot at 300 yards. I did admit it was a "good" shot; however, there was exactly zero hunting prowess exhibited. I asked him to come back and tell me of the story of how he shot a deer at 30 feet, and then I would be impressed. With that in mind...
MIssiles should be LONG range.

They should also be FAR faster and FAR more maneuverable then what they are intended to kill.

A medium fighter missile should be able to easily chase down and hit a medium fighter for example.

They should also do enough damage to take down the shields in one hit.
Then two more hits to waste the hull.
Press backspace to come to all stop. Left click over target box, press "R" three times - poof! Rinse, repeat. Absolutely zero chance of being in any danger whatsoever. Wow, that sounds like fun; let's all do it together now, <backspace-click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r...> Wohoo! That was what, fun?

Really? You guys want to take your overpowered Skunk with overpowered missiles that cannot miss into a fight you have absolutely no chance of loosing and then have the nerve to complain that Egosoft can't program smart enough AI? Am I the only one on the forum who can see the hypocracy in that? Are you all really that small-minded?

No, when you ladies take your skunk armed with a single mk1 weapon (not inertial hammer), with mk1 shields and engines, into a fight with a riot squad that is far enough away from a station you can't RSLG to, pry your hand off your joystick or mouse and come start a new thread and write about how you survived. I promise, we'll talk, I'll be impressed.

Until then,
TTFN
Thu

Ezarkal
Posts: 1610
Joined: Wed, 22. Apr 15, 02:27
x4

Post by Ezarkal » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 16:45

Thufar wrote:I really don't understand this argument about missiles.

I was talking to a deer hunter one day who was bragging about the deer he shot at 300 yards. I did admit it was a "good" shot; however, there was exactly zero hunting prowess exhibited. I asked him to come back and tell me of the story of how he shot a deer at 30 feet, and then I would be impressed. With that in mind...
MIssiles should be LONG range.

They should also be FAR faster and FAR more maneuverable then what they are intended to kill.

A medium fighter missile should be able to easily chase down and hit a medium fighter for example.

They should also do enough damage to take down the shields in one hit.
Then two more hits to waste the hull.
Press backspace to come to all stop. Left click over target box, press "R" three times - poof! Rinse, repeat. Absolutely zero chance of being in any danger whatsoever. Wow, that sounds like fun; let's all do it together now, <backspace-click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r, click-r-r-r...> Wohoo! That was what, fun?

Really? You guys want to take your overpowered Skunk with overpowered missiles that cannot miss into a fight you have absolutely no chance of loosing and then have the nerve to complain that Egosoft can't program smart enough AI? Am I the only one on the forum who can see the hypocracy in that? Are you all really that small-minded?

No, when you ladies take your skunk armed with a single mk1 weapon (not inertial hammer), with mk1 shields and engines, into a fight with a riot squad that is far enough away from a station you can't RSLG to, pry your hand off your joystick or mouse and come start a new thread and write about how you survived. I promise, we'll talk, I'll be impressed.

Until then,
TTFN
Thu

...or, exactly the other way around. Get jumped by three tiny pirate fighters that will
-one-shot you from crazy range without you having any chances of doing anything to dodge or escape...
-or escape it by pressing a single button called "drop anti-missile measures" if any missile counter are ever implemented in the game. That would be fairly easy and boring, I think.


So in both offence and defense, it sounds like you'll just invert the present problem: Instead of having useless missiles, you'll get useless standard weapons. You'll never get the chance to use them because missiles will be way too powerful to make the use of anything else worth the try.

I agree with the fact that missiles need some boost, but I wouldn't go to that extent. It shouldn't ruin the dogfighting.

As I see it right now, the problem is there are no missiles that are truly suited to dogfighting. So the main issue would be tracking, but it must not become sure hit either.

I like the idea previously mentioned about proximity detonation. Warhead gets within 50m of the target, then distance to target increase (due to missing the direct hit), then your warhead detonates and the target gets AoE damage (moderate as compared to a direct hit, but still decent).
Or, within 150 m of the target, the warhead splits in smaller warheads that tracks the target like a swarm(similar to the astrobee, or even to the homeworld 2 torpedo frigates ammo)
Humans are deuterostomes, which means that when they develop in the womb the first opening they develop is the anus.
This means that at one point you were nothing but an asshole.

Some people never develop beyond this stage.

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7764
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 17:28

RAVEN.myst wrote:Not *necessarily* true - it's a matter of picking the right missile for the job - I typically (speaking X3TC/AP here, not XR) use missiles that will 1-shot-kill whenever possible - otherwise, I feel much as you do, that it's rather wasteful, and then I'd rather shield-strip first with guns, at which point I may as well finish the job with guns, too. :D
You certainly like using unnecessarily expensive missiles. Right missile for the job for me is the cheapest I can get away with. I use a lot of them (click the profile button at the bottom of this post if you're curious to see uplink stats including how many missiles I used in a typical TC game), so any savings on each missile certainly add up.

Broadly speaking, take those one-shotters you mentioned & shift their intended targets up a class if there are no shields in the way - e.g. Tempest is an M3 killer for me, for that matter even a crappy little Silkworm can finish off a lot of the M3s & they're cheap as chips.

As for RGWs, sell them? Horrified at the mere thought. Got to hoard those - they're precious. There are a number of ships with otherwise incredibly weak firepower which can use them to punch well above their weight. For example, if you're playing Lost Lar & want to run combat missions in your Angel TP (decidedly risky but bloody fun) they tend to go much better with some RGWs in the hold - recommend saving them for M6 targets.

OK, so back to Rebirth (especially since this is its forum - d'oh!) - erm... no one-shotters to be found anywhere, sorry! :S Of course, the ship classes have been redefined, so even a Xenon N is a far cry from what it used to be! Still, as you and pretty much everyone else concurs... the new missiles are snowballs (which haven't been properly packed, either) :P
Starflash is certainly a snowball, possibly a melted one at that. As for the rest of the single warhead anti-fighter stuff, their warheads are ok-ish (bit light-weight on V.Hard, but I could manage), reckon they just need more speed. Personally don't need longer range - they generally only have to go about 500m-1km, they just don't do it anywhere near fast enough to be reliable.

UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Posts: 14571
Joined: Sun, 20. Nov 05, 22:45
x4

Post by UniTrader » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 17:43

hmm, would anyone mind testing diffrent re-balancing settings for Missiles AND Missile Defenses in a Mod to see how they turn out in practice instead of just speculating about it? i would offer to start such a Project (willl be entirely based on User Feedback though so no feedback => no changes/improvements, but given enough feedback i could update at least weekly...

Asking because i made a Script which adds basic Missile Defense to the DO and his Drones, and both Missiles and the Defesne against them should be balanced against each other. also just increasing the Range of Missiles (which was the initial request) is certainly counter-prouctive if the Target runs this Script because i have a 99% intercept success if the Missile was fired further away than 5km (although i admit i have to cheat a bit - the drones are not maneuverable enough, which is silly because they should one of the best overall meneuverabilities)
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 20:35

GCU Grey Area wrote:
RAVEN.myst wrote:Not *necessarily* true - it's a matter of picking the right missile for the job - I typically (speaking X3TC/AP here, not XR) use missiles that will 1-shot-kill whenever possible - otherwise, I feel much as you do, that it's rather wasteful, and then I'd rather shield-strip first with guns, at which point I may as well finish the job with guns, too. :D
You certainly like using unnecessarily expensive missiles. Right missile for the job for me is the cheapest I can get away with. I use a lot of them (click the profile button at the bottom of this post if you're curious to see uplink stats including how many missiles I used in a typical TC game), so any savings on each missile certainly add up.
I was expecting that retort :D But I play an economic game, always - which means that I have surpluses of credits that I can throw at any problem. My style is more about strategy than about tactics - plan ahead, prepare, over-prepare if possible, and overcome. This isn't to say that in the early game there aren't very entertaining and intense furballs (and I like to revisit that in the later game, when I get bored), but since I know that my economy is always going to come right and be able to subsidise me, it's not a problem. Also, considering the old adage that "time is money", killing enemies quickly means that I move on to the next task so much faster - in this way, the expensive missile pays for itself. Also, the "expensive" missile that 1-hit-kills its target is saving me time and potential repairs or other expenses. Furthermore, 3 or 4 "cheaper" missiles vs one "expensive" one? Sounds like a wash to me in any case.

GCU Grey Area wrote:As for RGWs, sell them? Horrified at the mere thought.
Erm, please re-read what I posted! I said "I USED TO only ever sell them" - past tense, but for a long time now I've been using them for more *cough* "constructive" (what's a prefix between friends, right?) *cough* purposes :D

GCU Grey Area wrote:Starflash is certainly a snowball, possibly a melted one at that. As for the rest of the single warhead anti-fighter stuff, their warheads are ok-ish (bit light-weight on V.Hard, but I could manage), reckon they just need more speed. Personally don't need longer range - they generally only have to go about 500m-1km, they just don't do it anywhere near fast enough to be reliable.
Yes, the speed and agility are definitely the salient issues - but I believe that the flight duration should not be shortened, so with improved speed would come greater range. This is not just (nor, in fact, mainly) for long-range bombardment, but rather to give the missile a longer pursuit time, to give it a better chance to chase down its target - a single dodge with a tight turning arc should not automatically defeat the missile - this is a matter of fun rather than "realism": I'd rather dodge the missile once but then not be out of the woods yet, needing to evade it perhaps two more times before I can breathe that sigh of relief - during which time, of course, more could be launched against me. Notice that I don't only want missiles to be more effective in order to hit NPC more consistently - I also want THEIR arsenal to be upgraded. :D

However, I do disagree with "only 500m - 1km" - that's not a missile, that's a short-range rocket. A missile SHOULD (imo) have some legs - I consider a missile weapons as an OPENING strike, not a finishing move. As soon as you launch that tracking warhead at the enemy, if you did so in a competent manner, that enemy MUST change plan/approach or suffer the consequences. Thus, it is a way to influence the enemy, to disrupt his/her attack vector.

EDIT: Hmm, an observation on the "melted snowballness", heheh: here I think I'm detecting an out-of-sync stat creep - the ships are getting tougher, but the missiles aren't evolving to keep pace. This isn't the first time we've seen this, either - missiles that used to be powerful in X2 became quite lame in Reunion, and even more so in TC and AP, as ship stats kept getting buffed (with some exceptions, of course - yes, Elephant, I'm looking at you!) but the missiles stats remained pretty, erm, static.
Last edited by RAVEN.myst on Fri, 17. Feb 17, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

User avatar
mr.WHO
Posts: 8534
Joined: Thu, 12. Oct 06, 17:19
x4

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 17. Feb 17, 20:39

To me having 99% accurate missile defence is as bad as having no missile defence.

IMO 99% accurate MD would be ok only if it would have limited capacity/fire rate so that it would be possible to overload MD with several missiles

As someone mentioned Freespace had good missile countermeasure system and AI was able to use it at to competend level (so no Godlike skill, nor retard level reflex).
Too bad something like this is waay beyond Egosoft scripting capabilities.

Post Reply

Return to “X Rebirth Universe”