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Small ships escort kills themselves on capships, and some other questions
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Godzii





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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 03:39    Post subject: Small ships escort kills themselves on capships, and some other questions Reply with quote Print

Greetings, fellow X enthousiasts,

I recently managed to swallow my disappointment, took me 3 years, and decided to try X:Rebirth. I was very pleasantly surprised, but not by everything.

I did not come to make a review though, I have some questions :

(main client, 100% vanilla : no mods, no DLC, no beta / free play start)


1°) I bought 20 small ships and put them under the control of a capital ship. I then put the capital ship under the lead of (the defence officer of) a construction ship, so that the group would protect the construction site. I was also IS (more specifically in zone, right next to them), to protect the site myself.

What ended up happening however is this : the escort of small ships began to furiously ram the leading capital ship, which was very slowly patroling over the construction ship. In fact, they killed themselves on its hull. After 1 hour, and without being attacked by anything, I had lost 3 small ships. Head banged too hard, it seems. Many of them had damaged hull, <50% or so. But full shield.

I figured I may have bought too many (20), so I sold the damaged ones and kept only 10. But they kept exploding, without any attack yet. When I was down to 7, I sold every small ships back.

-> What's up with that? What did I do wrong?


2°) The said construction operation was conducted on an empty zone. I'm playing on very hard, so I was terrified to go there, expecting marauders waves to pose a very serious threat to my endeavour. Which also was... the interesting part.

But it never happened.

When I build in regular zones (zones with npc stations in them), I get swarmed by marauders, it's insane. I lost 25M worth of military on my first station, lost the construction ship on the second one... it's good, I like it. We have a game going, I picked very hard, bring it on.

However, when I build in an empty zone, where I was expecting things to get REAL, with no npc station to go hide to... nothing. Nothing happened. I built 3 stations in 2 empty zones in Albion, and never got attacked once. Not once. Not even the odd nps ship flying with 20% hull left, nothing. No enemy whatsoever. Very hard.

-> What's up with that? Is it intended, is my game acting?


3°) What is a welder drone, why do my engineers have a welder drone counter (0/50), and where can I find one?!!


4°) Can one use the enemy escape pods? Can we hire/force the pilots to work for us?


5°) Is there a way to repair small ships in bulk? One by one + not being able to queue the commands but having to wait for each of them is... I mean, come on. Also, is the repair price bugged? It looks extremely high, maybe even higher than buying a new one?!


Any help/infos would be appreciated Smile



Last edited by Godzii on Tue, 7. Feb 17, 16:05; edited 1 time in total
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RodentofDoom





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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 04:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

1) small ships are crap.

2) marauders are spawned in (by the space_pirate fairy), i'm guessing they are only scripted to 'appear' in preset zones, ie the ones with npc stations in them, but that partly guessing.

3) it's the construction drone, they allegedly speed up repair times
you might need to be ooz for that to actually happen tho.

4) small ship pilots will escape, all you can do however is blow them up AGAIN, cap ship crew 'go down with the ship'.

5) no.
you can mod it tho ..

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Godzii





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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 15:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks for the follow up!

Couple of things :


1° & 5) It's not "just" crap. A crap piece of hardware, or car, would still work, just... poorly.

I mean sure, small ships have very bad value (especially compared to capships), they melt like butter, they can't jump, they have an unbelievably tedious/costly repair procedure, and in that they are crap, but... above all that, they simply do not work.

They kill themselves on the ship they are supposed to protect. That's not just crap imo, that's straight up broken.


2°) I'd guess the same... That's very unfortunate, for a very hard mode.

The enemies are not spawning. Hello? Devs?


3°) I should have been more precise here, I'm talking about engineers on the skunk. When, on the crew quarters, you hail them, the menu shows a line with welder drone, and a number (0/50).

What is this, am I supposed to be able to give them welder drones - skunk drones then, like beholder, hacking drones etc, but there's only 8 slots for the skunk drones, not 50, and I can't find a "welder drone" anywhere.

I can't equip construction URVs on the skunk.

Engineers do NOT have this particular line, when placed on capships / stations (where they can be put, but seemingly do nothing).


4°) Meh, too bad, it would have been cool!


I'm still unclear on how/why this XR came to be. I'm trying not to compare it to X3 whatsoever, I think it's the only way.

Still, I mean come on, three years now... can we teach the black sheep how to walk? It's killing itself on my capship hull, atm. Can't be right.

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ezra-r





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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 18:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

mmmm, supposedly npc bumping damage was removed.

Don't tell me it is back on again? Shocked


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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

For the price of 20 fighters, you could've invested in a Balor or Light Sul to escort your primary capital ship. If you want to use fighters to protect a station, assign them to the station's defense officer.

As for the damage, I'm pretty sure that the damageless bumping 'feature' was added with the Home of Light DLC. Both DLC's add considerable territory to explore so if you can afford it, I'd highly recommend you get them. There are a lot of other features that come with them, too.

Finally, empty spaces are meant for players to build stations if they don't want NPC's to attack them constantly. If you want action, build in zones with NPC stations.

Good Luck! Very Happy

P.S. Note the bottom line of my signature. Wink


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PostPosted: Tue, 7. Feb 17, 20:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Maybe try changing the person the small ships are assigned to. Small ships tend to lag behind Capital ships, maybe as your Capital ship is moving slowly is causing an issue with them trying to keep more or less around the Capital ship.


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Godzii





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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 01:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Today I tried to reproduce the thing, to make a video capture. To no avail. So maybe (hopefully) it was just a bug.


What I originally had :

20 small ships under the lead of a Taranis, Taranis under the lead of the defence officer of a Construction ship. Taranis on "defend". The Construction ship was starting new station (from the very start - with lot of npcs capships coming to sell the 1 turret, etc.).

I also had npcs mining capships, because apparently there also were some asteroids to collect, right above the Construction ship (-_-) : the area was crowded, with capships, and a small amount of roids.

The Taranis would do slow circles over the construction ship, seemingly patrolling the area. After one hour or so, his escort would begin to spontaneously combust.

Sold a bunch, kept only 10. They would still explose. Sold everything.


What I had during the re-enactment :

Same ships, same leads, same command, same place.

The station is long finished though. This time, the Taranis just went and parked itself to the left of the Construction ship, and didn't move anymore (no matter the command, attack or defend : Taranis doesn't move). The escort of 20 ships stays around the Taranis, they don't move either, and all is well, nobody explodes.


So, maybe it was an issue with pathfinding, maybe there simply was too many things going on the first time, and the Taranis was not "patrolling", but was instead being very confused. And its escort AI broke.

I don't know!

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Sparky Sparkycorp
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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 01:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

1. Collision damage for ships other than the player ship (Skunk) was removed in version 3.51. I'm not sure why those fighters were popping initially but if it happens again, please report it.

3. The Skunk cannot equip Construction/Welder drones. The ones that can be equipped to the Skunk are all types of ROV, "fighting" URVs and "support" URVs (see wiki for details).


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hisazul





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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 15:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

As above posters mentioned fighters don't really work in Rebirth. Too fragile and very tedious to repair. No ability to jump or dock to ships/stations.

There are some "exceptions" but none of them truly work. Drosdan sounds good on paper... but doesn't work, like assault drones(that have NOT worked since 1.0 and still do not work in any capacity what so ever) Katana can stay alive longer but if you run into a fighter swarm it will melt like anything else, P is like Katana but ignores shields which is very interesting... sadly since it is yours the fake calculator difficulty renders it useless(on normal they are pretty deadly to all fighters and even some capitals when you have enough).

On the other hand non-capital miners and traders are in fact fairly decent and have their place, go figure.

Non-static zones can only get attacked by something that was passing through, otherwise they are the best sectors to build at. At least the horrid idea of tying half the stations functionality to an immobile ship stuck AWAY from station won't eat your time and money.


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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 16:30    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I think the simple answer to the question, "why don't hostiles attack me in empty space zone?" is probably simply:

Until v3.00, we couldn't build stations in empty space and since then, Devs have worked on alternatives to making hostiles use empty space (which would probably create balancing and CPU issues).

hisazul wrote:

P is like Katana but ignores shields which is very interesting... sadly since it is yours the fake calculator difficulty renders it useless(on normal they are pretty deadly to all fighters and even some capitals when you have enough).

If this occurs, it would be worth reporting it as a bug because a general understanding of difficulty settings is that it only affects damage done to, or recieved by, the Skunk. I don't think it's meant to affect any player-owned ships.

http://www.egosoft.com:8292/confluence/display/XRWIKI/Difficulty+settings


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Godzii





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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 18:11    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
1. Collision damage for ships other than the player ship (Skunk) was removed in version 3.51. I'm not sure why those fighters were popping initially but if it happens again, please report it.

3. The Skunk cannot equip Construction/Welder drones. The ones that can be equipped to the Skunk are all types of ROV, "fighting" URVs and "support" URVs (see wiki for details).


Will do. With a video, that time.

Thanks for the welder drones, I guess my question is half honest. As far as I understand, there is no such thing as a welder drone in the game. Yet, early, you get mission asking you to find some (boy did I look for them...), and then, engineers that are in the crew quarters of the skunk do have a line mentioning welder drones. And another line, mentioning construction URV (...).

i. Employed engineer asked to show his skills, in the Skunk crew quarters :



The last line (Constuction URV) is reactive, but not functional. Despite what it seems, you cannot access the encyclopedia from it either. In other words : it will react, but does nothing.


ii. Employed engineer asked to show her skills, in a capship (Taranis here) docking pad :



This is especially weird because, on the contrary to the Skunk, the Taranis CAN and in fact DOES HAVE construction drones currently equipped. They work fine, too. But the engineer doesn't acknowledge their existence.


iii. Employed engineer asked to show his skills, in a station :

Yes. Because I already had an engineer in a station, before I read you're not supposed to put one there.

Made a video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKbmn9EsoTI


So yeah. There's definitely something fishy with welder drones.


hisazul wrote:
As above posters mentioned fighters don't really work in Rebirth. Too fragile and very tedious to repair. No ability to jump or dock to ships/stations.

There are some "exceptions" but none of them truly work. Drosdan sounds good on paper... but doesn't work, like assault drones(that have NOT worked since 1.0 and still do not work in any capacity what so ever) Katana can stay alive longer but if you run into a fighter swarm it will melt like anything else, P is like Katana but ignores shields which is very interesting... sadly since it is yours the fake calculator difficulty renders it useless(on normal they are pretty deadly to all fighters and even some capitals when you have enough).

On the other hand non-capital miners and traders are in fact fairly decent and have their place, go figure.

Non-static zones can only get attacked by something that was passing through, otherwise they are the best sectors to build at. At least the horrid idea of tying half the stations functionality to an immobile ship stuck AWAY from station won't eat your time and money.


I love the construction ships! The idea is very good, and I love the way they look (the DA is fantastic in this game), the way they slowly move, the way they deploy and interact with other ships : its all very cinematic. They make sense, and they also give a weak point to the whole operation, which I like - well, provided you don't build in an empty zone, it seems... (Zzzzzzzz)

Only thing is once the station is done, then... yeah, they do become awkward. I'd rather have some sort of crew transfer, as in, a proper engineer working in the station, maybe along the architect, who would repair the hull with construction URVS/drones, with same material cost as before, sure.

And get rid of the construction ship, at this stage*. Maybe even make them reusable, or sell-able, I mean, they do have a deploy/undeploy animation already, and they're only worth 1M anyway, which is not game-breaking by any means (when you just spent at least 50M+ in a station...).

I don't know, would seem reasonable to me...


* I guess the notion of "at this stage" can vary. Untill now, I've always built my stations with full options, because I picked "very hard" and got absolutely destroyed the first 2 times. So I've been very cautious (and loving it). For no reason, because apparently npcs do not spawn in empty spaces, but I didn't know that.

Anyways, yeah, the "final stage" would have to be determined. Everything done, or just modules done, and then, how to upgrade... but I'm sure this could be figured out (eg. just bring another CV if you want to upgrade, like you'd do when a CV has blown up - you just get another one).



Last edited by Godzii on Wed, 8. Feb 17, 18:57; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 18:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Godzii wrote:
...As far as I understand, there is no such thing as a welder drone in the game. ...


Welder drones are the same thing as construction drones. I'm guessing at some point in the development of the game, they were called welder drones, but then changed to construction drones. Apparently the 'welder' term didn't get changed everywhere and no one's bothered to fix it.


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Godzii





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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 19:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yeah, I'd guess the same.

It's quite messy though, especially the "show me your skills" menu of the engineers in the Skunk crew quarters.

Also, again, early in the game you get a mission asking you to find "welder drones", which... only the Skunk seem to make use of, but can't be equipped or even carried with. And are nowhere to be found... ?!

It's all very confusing, is what I'm saying I guess. This topic is also intended as a feedback (hopefully...).

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Godzii





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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 19:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
I think the simple answer to the question, "why don't hostiles attack me in empty space zone?" is probably simply:

Until v3.00, we couldn't build stations in empty space and since then, Devs have worked on alternatives to making hostiles use empty space (which would probably create balancing and CPU issues).


Well, maybe. But from a strict player point of view, it's a shame. I mean I picked very hard, please give me a challenge. I was terrified to go and build in an empty space, seeing how hard it was to build with the protection of a close npc station. So I over-prepared and bought a (for the time) massive military force to protect the site. As, you know, one would expect to have to do, in a "very hard" setting. I liked it.

But then it turned out to be the easiest thing ever, because enemies do not spawn...??! Say again, empty zone = godmode?

Should we not report that? It is by far the worst issue here (assuming the small ships explosion was an unusual bug). I mean, I understand this is probably an oversight, but does it matter?

It doesn't work, this is the official forum : what can be done to make it work?

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
hisazul wrote:

P is like Katana but ignores shields which is very interesting... sadly since it is yours the fake calculator difficulty renders it useless(on normal they are pretty deadly to all fighters and even some capitals when you have enough).

If this occurs, it would be worth reporting it as a bug because a general understanding of difficulty settings is that it only affects damage done to, or recieved by, the Skunk. I don't think it's meant to affect any player-owned ships.

http://www.egosoft.com:8292/confluence/display/XRWIKI/Difficulty+settings


?

How a difficulty setting affecting the whole game could be considered a bug? Would it be fun if the difficulty only affected the Skunk and nothing else?

Imo, it has to have an impact on the player_owned ships, and on the enemies (which, to my understanding, it does : numbers and spawn frequency) otherwise it's just... I don't know, terrible?


Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
1. Collision damage for ships other than the player ship (Skunk) was removed in version 3.51.


Just a quick word about that, I don't recall taking any collision damage with the Skunk. Not that I ram into things all the time, but I did ram some stations / ships here and there, and I don't recall taking any damage doing so...?

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Sparky Sparkycorp
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PostPosted: Wed, 8. Feb 17, 21:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Godzii wrote:

But then it turned out to be the easiest thing ever, because enemies do not spawn...??! Say again, empty zone = godmode?

Should we not report that? It is by far the worst issue here (assuming the small ships explosion was an unusual bug). I mean, I understand this is probably an oversight, but does it matter?

Your feedback here is perfectly valid and Devs do read threads. Thank you for providing it. I wasn't providing an argument in favour of the status quo, just providing a potential explanation for it other than the possibility that safety was intentional (which it could be).

Godzii wrote:

How a difficulty setting affecting the whole game could be considered a bug? Would it be fun if the difficulty only affected the Skunk and nothing else?

I was just replying to the specific case of damage done by NPCs on player-owned ships. Please follow the link I posted above for other global effects of Difficulty Settings.

Godzii wrote:

Just a quick word about that, I don't recall taking any collision damage with the Skunk. Not that I ram into things all the time, but I did ram some stations / ships here and there, and I don't recall taking any damage doing so...?

Good point, I think you're right. I focused too much on finding the NPC collision patch note and forgot about common sense Smile


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