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How I want Egosoft to manage games (split from X4 wishlist thread. AP)
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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Tue, 10. Jan 17, 15:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

CBJ wrote:
To give his suggestion some context, graphs were added in X3AP largely because they had been suggested by players with an interest in the economy side of the game at various times in the past. As sometimes happens, when a feature players have been suggesting actually makes it into the game, it tuns out that people are not as interested in it as they apparently thought they were.

Just so you know: some of us DO appreciate those graphs in X3AP (very much so, in fact!) Smile For that matter, I welcomed the ones that were introduced into Rebirth, too. I think that some features (I don't necessarily mean this specific one, I'm speaking in broad terms - but quite possibly it applies to this example) will appeal most to those people who are not as likely to make a noise here on the forums one way or another - consequently, if those features "hit the spot", that fact may well go largely (and tragically) unnoticed. Many people get distracted by the flashy stuff, but it's often the more subtle things that can have a profound impact on so-called "quality of life" aspects.

EDIT: Also, sometimes these subtle features become so integrated with our game experience, that they become practically invisibly transparent, and thus we end up taking them for granted, and may altogether forget to give them the credit they deserve. (This holds true for me with AP's graphs - I simply can't imagine playing without them, and so I forget about them as a distinct entity. When I went back to re-play TC, I suddenly remembered, alright! Very Happy )


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PostPosted: Tue, 10. Jan 17, 16:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Only because there is no one praying because of a working feature it doesn't means nobody likes it, so what about graphs requires feedback: Nothing They work you know how they work done.
Graphes were pretty nice in AP trough station were still standardized and therefore you only need to count them to get your needed information, in XR they are essential if you want to know which is the best station to build somewhere.


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PostPosted: Tue, 10. Jan 17, 16:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

birdtable wrote:
To ask for ideas and suggestions .... then state we can do a graph nobody wanted then let the ideas be submitted for a further 55 pages (granted they did vary from the outlandish to the very good) with no feedback. It now appears no intention of any being realised does suggest a cynical approach.. At some stage within the hierarchy at Egosoft realisation that no such update was going to occur then an honest statement saying so would have been appropriate and would have saved Santi defending the indefensible.....
"Graph or nothing" .mmmmmm !!!


But there are feedback in the thread from the Devs and as things changed they let people know what was going on with the update.

Feedback like this: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4504358#4504358 reinforcing the scope of it.

This one http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4573610#4573610 that talks about the uncertainties regarding the patch.

Another one http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4580039#4580039 confirming that they are following the thread.

Or this one when another small update was made http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4616836#4616836 regarding the suggestion thread.

More http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4630698#4630698

The latest one http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4641476#4641476

Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.


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birdtable





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PostPosted: Tue, 10. Jan 17, 18:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thank you Santi for your time taken to highlight those feedbacks from the devs, after 2 years bar two months I see no reference to any idea/requests, just generalisations that things may or may not happen. Since 2 years have passed I can assume no such patch will be forthcoming that contains any of the ideas/requests submitted..... Understandable with the workload of VR and X4 plus any additions to Rebirth.
55 pages of suggestions did not appear overnight, approx 2 pages a month... It could have been handled better and avoided any disappointment in what was finally offered.
Graphs may be popular but it appears not when it comes to requests unless you count the silent viewers of this forum.
The original request was for ideas and wishes (I will admit only considered) for any future patch, it appears non were entered for the race.

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CBJ
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PostPosted: Tue, 10. Jan 17, 19:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

birdtable wrote:
Since 2 years have passed I can assume no such patch will be forthcoming that contains any of the ideas/requests submitted.....

I appear to be wasting my time responding to these threads then, because you have reached that assumption despite the fact that I have clearly stated, several times in the thread under discussion and again on the previous page of this one, that doing something with some of those suggestions is still on the cards. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 00:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Santi wrote:
More http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4630698#4630698

Also read the posts that follow.


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Santi
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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 08:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Graaf wrote:
Santi wrote:
More http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4630698#4630698

Also read the posts that follow.


I just read it, waiting patiently for something to happen.

Quoting myself as it seems it is not getting through.

Santi wrote:
Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.



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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 15:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

As a software developer I would not want any users to be involved in testing the early versions of any but the most trivial applications.

We have a dedicated team of testers. From my viewpoint the most deadly boring job I know of.

If you really want to check software to the level that these people do, then you really need to get trained up.

What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)

With games like the X series, the developer has to make the descisions on what features will appear in the game. Over the past 3 years I have seen some people banging there own drum as what is required in Rebirth, or what should be removed as a waste of time.

The number of times I have disagreed with posters is almost as high as the number I agree with them.


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 15:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
As a software developer I would not want any users to be involved in testing the early versions of any but the most trivial applications.

We have a dedicated team of testers. From my viewpoint the most deadly boring job I know of.


We're really not talking about testing. Mostly about making suggestions and giving ideas and getting feedback on those ideas.


Quote:
What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)


I've seen some very rough games in EA that I would consider alpha. This might be mostly quibbling over semantics at this point though.

Quote:
With games like the X series, the developer has to make the descisions on what features will appear in the game. Over the past 3 years I have seen some people banging there own drum as what is required in Rebirth, or what should be removed as a waste of time.

The number of times I have disagreed with posters is almost as high as the number I agree with them.


Everyone has things they lean to more than others and things that they dislike. Sometimes you just may not get a desired feature because of whatever reason. That's fine. I really just want an X game that launches and doesn't require a year of patches to be decently playable with most of the bits working as intended.


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ZaphodBeeblebrox





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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 16:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

And the best way to achieve that?

Get a lot more dedicated testers involved in the early stages of development.

Which is not cheap.

On the topic of requests and responses. If a player has a request, then they should at least try to be civil in the formulation of that request.

I for one would not be inclined to respond to any post that started off with:

Such and such is a pile of S*** why don't you ******* well do something about it. Make it do this instead. Too many so called requests are just rants about some feature a player particularly dislikes.


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 18:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
And the best way to achieve that?

Get a lot more dedicated testers involved in the early stages of development.

Which is not cheap.


Maybe not, but then the alternative is more angry/dissatisfied customers. I guess choices get made and they have consequences.

Quote:
On the topic of requests and responses. If a player has a request, then they should at least try to be civil in the formulation of that request.

I for one would not be inclined to respond to any post that started off with:

Such and such is a pile of S*** why don't you ******* well do something about it. Make it do this instead. Too many so called requests are just rants about some feature a player particularly dislikes.


I absolutely agree. But I also have observed that there are much less of those types of posts if your game is stable, playable and has most features working from the get go.

Realistically, you will never stop those types of posts (it's the internet). However, if most of your other customers are happy, they will usually be the first to explain to that ranter why they might be wrong or what they might be missing. The better received your game, the more those ranters are going to stick out and look like the socially challenged individuals they are.


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 18:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Santi wrote:
Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

You make it sound like they haven't done anything about the thread at all, which isn't true either.


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 19:11    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Graaf wrote:
Santi wrote:
Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

You make it sound like they haven't done anything about the thread at all, which isn't true either.


Ok, first I read the posts and nothing happened, now this. Could you please elaborate a bit in what you are trying to say and give it a bit of context because I honestly do not get what you mean. Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 19:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:

What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)


Subjective - yes and no it depends on the person and purpose. The most imporant point though (even if you subscribe to it being wholly subective) is that there is a subjective PoV and influence to be made and are you capable of making it internally? Imho this is a potential danger of DevNet because people who think the same way naturally attract the same audience. So what you risk ending up with is niche thoughts and opinions being supported by a niche group of players/supporters.

Or if you want to put it another way does an engineer make their own desicions subjectively as to how a product is developed.... Sometimes yes, sometimes no they need the input from an artist or architect.

You need to be very careful not to use the term subjective as a reason not to do something implying it has little to no value. The collective subjective opinion is ultimately what will define the quality of a product. Sure not everyone will agree but you do need a critical mass of positive reception to maintain/grow a customer base.

It is Egosoft's risk at the end of the day I'd like to see them be successful as much as the next person. They get some good advice and thoughts from the community as well as garbage its down to them to navigate the complexities and what works for them. We can but make suggestions... Cool


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PostPosted: Wed, 11. Jan 17, 20:01    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

BigBANGtheory wrote:
It is Egosoft's risk at the end of the day I'd like to see them be successful as much as the next person. They get some good advice and thoughts from the community as well as garbage its down to them to navigate the complexities and what works for them. We can but make suggestions... Cool

This line should also be made into a banner, as it assumes you have the notion of your place in the universe and thus can do sensible sugestions.

Unless its ranting about the lack of RTS style fleet management... Laughing *hides*

MFG

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