NEWS: X Rebirth VR Edition, Updates and X4

[Dupin]

You can't compare the X series with Elite Dangerous or Star Citizen. They're very different games.

All the games are different, so what? But Elite Dangerous, SC and X are Elite-like games, spacesims and sandboxes. I'm a fan of the X-series and I believe that the series has needed changes long time ago. And personally I am pleased with the changes that have occurred. But of course I would like it to be done at a higher level of quality.

This is partially the reason why X Rebirth was so negatively received by the fans.

No, it is not. Speak for yourself! I think that the real reason is that all features were performed not at the level that should be and bugs.

Nobody asked for the ability to walk around in space stations and ships (especially when most of the environments were going to be cookie-cutter interiors anyways), and the fans certainly didn't want a role playing experience forced upon using a single ship.

Nobody or just you? Again, speak for yourself, please. Personally, I always wanted this. And it is not "a role playing experience", these are just the features that a space simulator needs in current gen.

That's the core gameplay of what X series is all about

To be honest, core gameplay is freedom, which will not be if the game turns into a 4X-strategy. Empire manage mechanics were added to the games little by little. I advise you to play in the earlier games of the series (X Beyond the Frontier, X Tension, X2 The Threat).

I will be happy if X4 is basically X3 with better interfaces and graphics.

Realy? So play to X3, who is in the way?

[blazin419]

All the games are different, so what? But Elite Dangerous, SC and X are Elite-like games, spacesims and sandboxes. I'm a fan of the X-series and I believe that the series has needed changes long time ago. And personally I am pleased with the changes that have occurred. But of course I would like it to be done at a higher level of quality.

What do you mean so what? You're comparing apples to oranges, that's what. If you're a fan of the X-series and you're pleased with the "changes" with X Rebirth then I can hardly imagine you a fan of the X series. You're telling me to go play the earlier titles of X (which I have) and the X series' strong points have always been about the 4X aspects. Even in the earliest X game, X-BTF the player worked towards buying factories. Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous both have their strong points, which is a more personalised gameplay like a traditional role playing game. In contrast, people have always played the X series for the empire building gameplay that no other game offered (until EVE Online came along, but even then you can't manage multiple ships in EVE). If people wanted a personalised experience like in Elite or Star Citizen they would just go and play those games, because frankly, every aspect of that gameplay like combat, flight-model, etc. are done much better in those games.

No, it is not. Speak for yourself! I think that the real reason is that all features were performed not at the level that should be and bugs.

No, it's not, speak for yourself! The overwhelming criticisms about the game in X-Rebirth, even after many of the bugs were patched post-release, was that it was a step back from X3 gameplay-wise. Egosoft admits this and even from reading the original post of this thread, "While I cannot say much about its features yet, what I can tell you about it so far is that it will allow you to fly many different ships, it will give you an all-new interface to manage large fleets, and it will give you full freedom when building stations from individual modules.", the developers themselves know the strong points of the X series and wish to bring that back in X4.

Nobody or just you? Again, speak for yourself, please. Personally, I always wanted this. And it is not "a role playing experience", these are just the features that a space simulator needs in current gen.

Nobody as in the overwhelming majority of fans. The scale of the X series' gameplay has always been about the bigger picture, with the ability to manage extremely large ships, build space stations, and create an empire. You cannot achieve the level of quality of interiors that a game like Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous has when ships are literally a kilometer in length, and it's a complete waste of resources and time. All the interiors in X Rebirth are basically copy and pastes, it's a waste of time for the player to go into these stations to trade, and it's a waste of time for the developers to create such cookie-cutter interiors to begin with. They add absolutely no meaningful gameplay to the game. If you want to go explore interiors go play Star Citizen.

To be honest, core gameplay is freedom, which will not be if the game turns into a 4X-strategy. Empire manage mechanics were added to the games little by little. I advise you to play in the earlier games of the series (X Beyond the Frontier, X Tension, X2 The Threat).

Are you joking? You're telling me to play the earlier games but you sound like you've never even played those games. Judging by your registration date and your label of calling the gameplay elements that literally created the X brand, "4X-strategy", you've probably never even played X3 to a meaningful level.

Realy? So play to X3, who is in the way?

The hypocrisy here. I'm here arguing for preserving the core gameplay of the X brand, while you're here arguing for trying to change the X series into Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous. So why don't you go play those games? I'm saying this as a Golden Ticket Holder and concierge backer for Star Citizen. The X series has a completely different experience compared to Star Citizen, if I want to play Star Citizen I'll play Star Citizen. Thankfully, as I quoted from the original thread post above, Egosoft isn't going to listen to you and knows what pulls people to the X brand and will focus on improving those elements for X4 rather than creating gimmicks and changing the formula.

[MegaJohnny]

these are just the features that a space simulator needs in current gen.

Huh? There's no particular reason you "need" to add an activity to a game, least of all because it's trendy. The time you spend walking on stations could have been spent on any of the game's other activities on offer. It has to pull its weight, and the frustration is that it doesn't really pull its weight in XR.

Even if it did, though, I would be a bit turned off anyway, because walking on stations isn't to my taste in these games. I prefer to play X as a pure space sim. It's fine that you like to have it, but it's your assertion that new space sims "need" it that irks me.

[Dupin]

What do you mean so what?

I mean, there's nothing to stop me from comparing certain aspects of the game. For example, the graphics or the power of immersion. Nevertheless, I did not compare anything, just giving a little faith and fun. But someone came and said that I did it... What is it called, eh?

Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous both have their strong points, which is a more personalised gameplay like a traditional role playing game.

Exactly, that's what I'm talking about. This does not mean that I'm comparing something or I want one game to turn into another. All these strong points are what the late games of the X-series lack. That's all.

In contrast, people have always played...

All I can say is "You know nothing, John Snow".

If people wanted a personalised experience like in Elite or Star Citizen they would just go and play those games, because frankly, every aspect of that gameplay like combat, flight-model, etc. are done much better in those games.

Unfortunately for Egosoft, many have done so.

...the developers themselves know the strong points of the X series...

Fortunately for Ego, they also know weak points.

The scale of the X series' gameplay has always been about the bigger picture, with the ability to manage extremely large ships, build space stations, and create an empire.

This is not all gameplay, it's part of the gameplay that some players like, but there are other players that are more interesting in other thing to do. Is it so difficult to realize such a simple thing?
"It is all up to you... Fight, Build, Trade, Think."

You're telling me to play the earlier games but you sound like you've never even played those games. Judging by your registration date and your label of calling the gameplay elements that literally created the X brand, "4X-strategy", you've probably never even played X3 to a meaningful level.
The hypocrisy here. I'm here arguing for preserving the core gameplay of the X brand, while you're here arguing for trying to change the X series into Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous.

The person who uses such tricks accuses me of hypocrisy ... Not bad, not bad at all!
Play to X only on meaningful level, otherwise don't even mention this holy name!

It's fine that you like to have it, but it's your assertion that new space sims "need" it that irks me.

I agree that this is not the most appropriate word. Plus I agree that now walking on stations (except for hacking) not very interesting, but on the other hand this can be made more interesting and also make it an optional part of the gameplay.

[gbjbaanb]

what I can tell you about it so far is that it will allow you to fly many different ships, it will give you an all-new interface to manage large fleets, and it will give you full freedom when building stations from individual modules.", the developers themselves know the strong points of the X series and wish to bring that back in X4.

Oh yes, and thank goodness they get it now. Looking forward to what Rebirth should have been all along.

[Vector_Gorgoth]

what I can tell you about it so far is that it will allow you to fly many different ships, it will give you an all-new interface to manage large fleets, and it will give you full freedom when building stations from individual modules.", the developers themselves know the strong points of the X series and wish to bring that back in X4.

Oh yes, and thank goodness they get it now. Looking forward to what Rebirth should have been all along.

This. I haven't touched Rebirth due to the "consolization" of the interface and gameplay. Also because of the paid DLC. If Egosoft continues to engage in that sort of thing with X4, I simply won't buy it.

[Nanook]

Dupin and blazin419, let's dial it back a bit. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and will lead to official warnings, or worse. Play nice, please.

[MegaJohnny]

I agree that this is not the most appropriate word. Plus I agree that now walking on stations (except for hacking) not very interesting, but on the other hand this can be made more interesting and also make it an optional part of the gameplay.

Right, I see what you mean now. It's about as optional as I could hope for right now, which I'm quite happy about. Especially since they took the time to implement this transfer pod stuff.

This. I haven't touched Rebirth due to the "consolization" of the interface and gameplay. Also because of the paid DLC. If Egosoft continues to engage in that sort of thing with X4, I simply won't buy it.

Out of interest, are you opposed to paid DLC as a whole, or the way Egosoft has approached it?

[YOYOMAN_MODDER]

useless dialog in upper posts. If Ego change engine, games will be better. Sad but true. IMHO and i dont want bump this. All paid dlc i have bought, becourse i want to support developers.

[refuse]

I looking forward to 2025

[Astra]

I do recall a lot of players asked for an option to land on a planet and walk on a station. Unfortunately it was badly implemented.

I have not bought XR (BORN DEAD - the only one of X I do not have in my collection) but the promo video showed that NPCs are very ugly/simplified. Highways with minigames was another disappointment removing the right atmosphere (an attempt of sales people to get kids to play? who is the target player?). Gates and Jumpdrives worked fine. And the third game disaster was tying up the pilot to the chair - no way to change the ship (I personally liked flying - and jumping into enemy sectors - capital ships with MARS set to PSG guns).

One of good examples of doing it fine was in Privateer 2: The Darkening (it was 20 years ago!!!)/ Yes, "The game featured live-action video scenes" and it was awesome. Also landing on a planet was possible and it was nicely done . It is probably too early for egosoft to make walking on a planet addition (it will be a different game and there are many such as Mass effect, SC). But...
what VR is about? If you put VR helmet on, you probably will not see much difference - big distances of universe renders 3D images not very different from 2D (the bigger distance, the less 3D effect). Moving head around does not move your ship, so it is not very practical in combat if you ride a small fighter (it shoots directly where the ship is heading). Yes, it was possible in X3 to look around using a small joystick on the gaming pad. But how many of us use it in the combat? Yes, it was nice to look around while slowly moving through the universe. VR helmet really gives an edge when you talk about close encounters - in the corridors of space stations or barracks on a planet.

I fully support the move of Egosoft to add VR to X and believe it will be great but thinking of that I do realize how difficult is the task they took to make it awesome rather than just a simple "we did it in VR/ check-box".

Looking forward for X4. Hopefully it will be based on X3 (TC, Albion) rather than BornDead.

[Astra]

X4 is what the players are excited about.
what I would expect (my whishes may be contrary to someone else but what a hack tell what you want and Egosoft was good to hear its customers)?

1. Based on X3 (no highways, minigames, piloting one ship)
2. Possibility to build huge complexes compacting modules (XR, modes to X3) but also putting a stand alone stations with unique race specific appearance.
3. Possibility to take a capital ship by abordage and possibility leading the group as 1st person with hired marines. Here VR should be great! Here is one more path for development - equip yourself with better guns, suits. DLC.
4. If landing on stations, planets, well designed graphics with various themes. NPCs on planets/stations look better made and behave less predictably - may attack and fight if discussions go wrong, offer better deals when talked face to face rather than without landing through intercom.
DLC for more stations (new races) with unique themes.
5. Possibility to build and equip all ships when progress through (exist).
6. Possibility to ride any ship in the game. If capital ship, you may hire co-pilots, weapon masters, etc. and you can see them in the command room (VR). Interact, gaining levels as go through combat or missions (with you as a star pilot).
7. Full control over your fleet, factories, etc. (exist in X3)
8. It was nice to see a visual response of pilots who you are attacking, communicating. 18+ mode (rude language is fine).
9. Claiming a small ship if pilot ejected.
10 Scripting!!! Moding! options.
11. all good things left: mining, traders MK, segmentation (peaceful trading sectors and warzone with constant fight and hostile alien)
12. A new exciting plot perhaps with landing on planets (not ugly made but cinematic quality), multipathes, unique upgrades to ships, personal weapons.

[carran]

X4 is what the players are excited about.
what I would expect (my whishes may be contrary to someone else but what a hack tell what you want and Egosoft was good to hear its customers)?

1. Based on X3 (no highways, minigames, piloting one ship)
2. Possibility to build huge complexes compacting modules (XR, modes to X3) but also putting a stand alone stations with unique race specific appearance.
3. Possibility to take a capital ship by abordage and possibility leading the group as 1st person with hired marines. Here VR should be great! Here is one more path for development - equip yourself with better guns, suits. DLC.
4. If landing on stations, planets, well designed graphics with various themes. NPCs on planets/stations look better made and behave less predictably - may attack and fight if discussions go wrong, offer better deals when talked face to face rather than without landing through intercom.
DLC for more stations (new races) with unique themes.
5. Possibility to build and equip all ships when progress through (exist).
6. Possibility to ride any ship in the game. If capital ship, you may hire co-pilots, weapon masters, etc. and you can see them in the command room (VR). Interact, gaining levels as go through combat or missions (with you as a star pilot).
7. Full control over your fleet, factories, etc. (exist in X3)
8. It was nice to see a visual response of pilots who you are attacking, communicating. 18+ mode (rude language is fine).
9. Claiming a small ship if pilot ejected.
10 Scripting!!! Moding! options.
11. all good things left: mining, traders MK, segmentation (peaceful trading sectors and warzone with constant fight and hostile alien)
12. A new exciting plot perhaps with landing on planets (not ugly made but cinematic quality), multipathes, unique upgrades to ships, personal weapons.

That's a pretty good wish list though naturally some things are harder than others

Item 4. For example, and I note the prefix "If". Given the choice of more space object interaction ie ships, astronauts, laser towers etc OR stations, planets etc I'll take the former over the latter any day

I haven't played in a long while but given the amount of excellent mods out there, I'd like X4 to be X3 with the best mods / scripts incorporated along with menu rethink AND then add new content. Iterative game play development makes sense regardless of the graphics engine change along the way

[gbjbaanb]

X4 is what the players are excited about.
what I would expect (my whishes may be contrary to someone else but what a hack tell what you want and Egosoft was good to hear its customers)?

1. Based on X3 (no highways, minigames, piloting one ship)
2. Possibility to build huge complexes compacting modules (XR, modes to X3) but also putting a stand alone stations with unique race specific appearance.
3. Possibility to take a capital ship by abordage

absolutely.

and possibility leading the group as 1st person with hired marines. Here VR should be great! Here is one more path for development - equip yourself with better guns, suits. DLC.
4. If landing on stations, planets, well designed graphics with various themes. NPCs on planets/stations look better made and behave less predictably - may attack and fight if discussions go wrong, offer better deals when talked face to face rather than without landing through intercom.
DLC for more stations (new races) with unique themes.

Ah, you were doing so well.. and then suddenly dropped an entirely new games; worth of development onto the devs. All nice things, but I'd like a perfect game that does everything - but practicalities come into it, and implementing a FPS, with a full set of planetary complexes with enough variety to stop it looking dull, is just too much work to do. This is what screwed Rebirth, lets not make the same mistake.

Oh, and it also takes away focus from the core of the game - keep the devs and designed concentrating on making a cool space game, the moment you start "oh, and can we have..." means they stop thinking abotu the space game, and start thinking about cool new things that they don;t haver time to add in. A double hit on productivity.

5. Possibility to build and equip all ships when progress through (exist).
6. Possibility to ride any ship in the game. If capital ship, you may hire co-pilots, weapon masters, etc. and you can see them in the command room (VR). Interact, gaining levels as go through combat or missions (with you as a star pilot).
7. Full control over your fleet, factories, etc. (exist in X3)
8. It was nice to see a visual response of pilots who you are attacking, communicating. 18+ mode (rude language is fine).
9. Claiming a small ship if pilot ejected.
10 Scripting!!! Moding! options.
11. all good things left: mining, traders MK, segmentation (peaceful trading sectors and warzone with constant fight and hostile alien)
12. A new exciting plot perhaps with landing on planets (not ugly made but cinematic quality), multipathes, unique upgrades to ships, personal weapons.

So really, we're just after a better X3. Forget the crazy stuff, we want a better X3, with better station handling, better UI, more trade options and features.

That's really possible, and cheap to implement in a way that any first-person stuff (like walking on planets or leading marines) isn't.

[Dupin]

This is what screwed Rebirth, lets not make the same mistake.

What is the mistake here? Do you really think that the interiors and the NPC model made the game worse? Yes, Egosoft not good at such things, but it is the studio that started the series as one big experiment, and it's good, when developers are starting to do something not peculiar, it must be maintained, because later developers can improve it. This is a more effective way than simply give up some features.

X3 is a good game. For example, such things as large complexes and multiple ships control should return to X4, but it is not necessary to return outdated game (in many other aspects), which is X3 at the moment. That was would really be a mistake.

[refuse]

I realy would like to come back classic flight controll with invert mouse support for better feeling from driving the ships and more ships to controll personally
also different type of cameras 1st person for combat, 3rd person (non combat) and also cinematic camera which good for long distances - its look good in X3
no stupid highways with stupid music

[gbjbaanb]

This is what screwed Rebirth, lets not make the same mistake.

What is the mistake here? Do you really think that the interiors and the NPC model made the game worse?

Yes. it wasn't well implemented, turned out to be repetitive and boring, and took a lot of development effort away from other areas (such as multiple ships) that we could have had instead.

What would you rather have - a developer creating station interiors or ship interiors? You can't have both as ES doesn't have the money to make both.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I would rather have both, obviously with more depth in both.

Personally I don't know anything about EGO's finances or their financial model or their ability to get additional capital.

Companies can grow in size and they can hire temporary staff, or get other companies to provide assets.

The argument that they can't do this or that or this and that based on size or ability to get cash is spurious.

[Dupin]

You can't have both as ES doesn't have the money to make both.

Nobody knows this, except for Egosoft himself. But given that X Rebirth sales were high, I tend to think that developers have no problems with finances. In fact, they work simultaneously on two new projects now!

This is not a question of money at all, but of people who know how to do certain things. Yes, Egosoft is a small studio, but firstly even small studios are able to make big projects (look at Infinity Battlescape, Space Engineers, Dual Universe etc.), and secondly, experienced and capable people work in Egosoft...

The argument that they can't do this or that or this and that based on size or ability to get cash is spurious.

Absolutely agree!

[CBJ]

This is not a question of money at all, but of people who know how to do certain things.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. While gbjbaanb may not be quite right about the details, the principle he is putting forward is absolutely correct. Every decision to include something in a game is a decision not to include something else. That is a fundamental fact in almost every game development project. It is also why players saying "no" to others' ideas about what should be in the game is not simply them being awkward, and why "make it an option" usually isn't a solution to that disagreement.