Was XRebirth just a proof of concept ?

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Was XRebirth just a proof of concept ?

Post by Browser_ice » Sat, 12. Nov 16, 15:19

I was thinking of how XRebirth came to be, how it is different then the usual X Universe and how nothing is being done on it anymore.

This made me wonder if XRebirth is not just a proof of concept for the next X Universe game. That would make sense.
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Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 12. Nov 16, 15:45

Isn't any first game written on a brand new game engine broadly a proof of concept release that benefits any of the games intended to follow it on that engine?

Also I don't see how being a proof of concept excludes or diminishes its potential for being a commercial success nor why it implies any earlier abandonment than would likely have happened with any stage of an ongoing series.

Rebirth is probably different from the previous X games for two main reasons: firstly the new engine allows it to be different and with more potential for expansion, and secondly (and probably more importantly) the developers had a different intent for the new game. Just my personal opinions here though.

How popular that intent was/would be and to what extent and how well that intent has been achieved has been the subject of many, many previous threads and is probably not worth dragging up again here.
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Sat, 12. Nov 16, 22:24

Alan Phipps wrote:How popular that intent was/would be and to what extent and how well that intent has been achieved has been the subject of many, many previous threads and is probably not worth dragging up again here.
How true - and yet it's quite interesting to see that *constantly* we get X-veterans trying out Rebirth, then coming here to scratch their heads about "WTF happened/is going on?" (And I speak as one of those who did exactly that, myself, heheh.) I find this fact very telling, revealing to us that, very likely, there was more "miss" than "hit" happening with XR... (my opinion) It's not limited to a wave of outcry upon release, hashing itself out over the course of a few months, which happens with almost any new title in an ongoing game series - rather, years down the line, we still keep seeing X-veterans consistently being perplexed (and often disappointed - though some are too polite to show it, heheheh.)

"Where there's smoke, there's fire..." (and boy, does it keep on smoking and smoking and smoking and...)
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Post by ezra-r » Sun, 13. Nov 16, 12:33

whatever it is/was.

Hope the next game gets actually "played" by someone not just speed tested before release so appropiate bug reporting reaches Egosoft.

And I hope Egosoft organizes the resulting game a bit better so the game gets actually playable and enjoyable since its first iterations.

After so long playing Rebirth the feeling one gets is, that it is a lots of pieces of different puzzles put together with duct and tape without making too much sense in the ending result and most importantly, no devs seem to actually play the game or have played the game to "feel" the results in playability, so no wonder they end not understanding the community too much either and sometimes add ridiculous changes (asteroid cap ship pinball, etc..)
Last edited by ezra-r on Mon, 14. Nov 16, 13:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by carran » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 10:41

After trying X:R briefly and not getting on with it I decided to wait and see - unfortunately in the mean time, the forum has dwindled to a trickle of activity

I *think* the market is more X-BTF and derivatives than X:R - the forum usage certainly indicates so

I can't imagine any company would commit commercial suicide by pursuing a product either not wanted or appreciated by a dedicated fan-base

Just my $0.02 worth - and if anyone from Egosoft is listening - please give us more of what we want... yeah I know, lots of others have said the same

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Post by zazie » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 16:37

I HAVE to jump into this discussion.
After purchasing ReBirth I waited installing it, first, because XTC 'needed my attention', second, because of the rather devastating 'echo' the game got after its publication (iirc ReBirth was the first game ever with a refund on Steam...) .

I started playing RB seriously with 4.0, Vanilla, and (as I think) very much in the style Egosoft wants the players to play: doing a lot of things by them-selves: scanning stations, collecting crates, collecting station commercial information (aka trading computer inputs), doing minigames for info, profit or NPC-skills, boarding ships and repairing them with own engineers etc.

I have reached 10 IG-days, I am proud owner of about 12 fully equipped stations, several real big ships (mostly boarded), ~400 Mio credits in cash.
It works, I am having fun, no crashes - but the more I dive into the game the stronger the feeling I get:
This game does not WANT the player to play his own style. I am completely serious here: IMO, the development of Rebirth was strongly influenced by the will to prevent the player from reaching certain game goals. In this sense it's not an open world game, but a game with a lot of dead end streets.

You want examples?
- BUILD TRADE The economy is highly fragmentated, you need a lot of different stations to establish a closed supply chain. Good, needs some planning and patience, strategic priorization.
But for the sake of 'Hermes' 1: Why can't the player automate the trade between the stations of his supply-chain?
But for the sake of 'Hermes' 2: Why can't the player build its own shipyards to use the inevitable surplus-production of his stations?
But for the sake of 'Hermes' 3: If trading is based on AI, why is it not possible that player-owned Managers can communicate with stations in another part of the galaxy, but NPC-Managers can? (updating trade offers)

- TRADE Trading (with NPC-economy) would be fun and challenging. Take a Rahannas, buy some goods and deliver it to the NPC-stations in other sectors. Oh wait, you cannot do that, because you are stuck to the Skunk.

- FIGHT Even in Free Play it might be neccessary to get involved in a fight, if only for protecting-reasons during a difficult trade run.
But for the sake of 'Mars': Why is it impossible to give precise orders to the Captains of my fleet when I am IZ (in zone)? I understand that a simple "attack/defending/retreat-pattern" applies to OOS-actions. But when I am there personally ? I have the power to dismiss any personel even during fights, but have no means to attack following a strategy? I am God-like in this game but powerless for the actions of my soldiers.

- THINK Well,well, I might already know that my new station or my new shiny XL-ships needs a crew. It's even shown in the mission-log.
But for the sake of 'Athene': Why can't I hire that crew from abroad when the game has a communication system that allows me to interact with any station (if trade offers' update works) or to buy remotely any ship and transfering remotely 100 Mio credits ?

I have more examples, but enough for now. That's not a rant. I can accept it. But it is does not make sense in a game that claims to be open world and "Sandbox". No, it's not. There is Police in this Sandbox ...

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Post by ezra-r » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 18:36

quite a good read @zazie

As you say we are not here to rant, just to discuss our views friendly. I liked what you said and agreed with pretty much all of it.

Well, about the rahanas trading, I like my npcs to do that on my commands instead of having to actually do it (quite slow).

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 19:22

zazie: Well reasoned and very eloquent, articulate post - thank you.
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Post by carran » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 19:42

Thank you - very well put and informative, because if true, more reason to not persevere with X:R

Some questions if I may...

1) Is X:R still supported?

2) Are we waiting for TNBT - The Next Big Thing, which IIRC, was X2 - The Threat :)

3) Does anyone know if the new game engine would support an X-BTF / X-AP style game?

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Post by The Q » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 19:51

carran wrote:1) Is X:R still supported?
Yes, otherwise these forums would have been closed.
carran wrote:2) Are we waiting for TNBT - The Next Big Thing, which IIRC, was X2 - The Threat
I actually think we are waiting for TNGAXR - The next game after X Rebirth.
carran wrote:3) Does anyone know if the new game engine would support an X-BTF / X-AP style game?
Really depends on what you mean with "X-BTF / X-AP style game"? I would argue that X: Beyond the Frontier and X3: Albion Prelude are two different games.
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Post by carran » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 19:53

Err, no, because X:R is one game and the X Trilogy remains

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Post by The Q » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 19:56

Pardon? My question was what you understand under a "X-BTF / X-AP style game", because without question both games are notably different with regards to the gameplay, the modding, the graphics and so on.
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Post by Graaf » Mon, 14. Nov 16, 23:48

Why would the Rebirth Engine not be able to support the game mechanics of X2/X3?

It's the Game we have issues with, not the Engine.
Alan Phipps wrote:the new engine allows it to be different and with more potential for expansion
The current game design, not the engine, is mostly the reason for both the potential to expand and simultaneously to not allow any meaningful expansion. The crippling single ship limitation is a nice example of the latter.

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Post by Santi » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 01:36

I agree with most points from Zazie, once you reach a certain point within the game, the whole thing starts to crawl or being unwieldy, to the point that it is impossible to manage a lot of assets.

Apart from Zazie comments, Nikola515 has bring many more in this thread about this issue and management commands:

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=392579

At the end of the day X Rebirth is something new, proof of concept? Yes of course, as there are so many new gameplay elements. I would rather like that they expand over what Rebirth does well, than go again and design everything from scratch.
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Post by BigBANGtheory » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 09:51

zazie wrote:This game does not WANT the player to play his own style. I am completely serious here: IMO, the development of Rebirth was strongly influenced by the will to prevent the player from reaching certain game goals. In this sense it's not an open world game, but a game with a lot of dead end streets.
...or simply forced that way but yes the principal stands you have to play XR their way and you are either tolerant to that or not frankly. Much of the promise and potential of what you think you could do just doesn't materialize.
Santi wrote:I agree with most points from Zazie, once you reach a certain point within the game, the whole thing starts to crawl or being unwieldy, to the point that it is impossible to manage a lot of assets.
just like X3:Reunion, X3:Terran Conflict, X3:Albion Prelude for different reasons perhaps but I'm seeing a trend here. Two different approaches that don't deliver:
- One where every command under the sun is exposed to the UI in a on/off fashion
- Two where the AI assumes control without the player able to exert much influence

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Post by eMYNOCK » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 10:37

Santi wrote:...
At the end of the day X Rebirth is something new, proof of concept? Yes of course, as there are so many new gameplay elements. I would rather like that they expand over what Rebirth does well, than go again and design everything from scratch.
Wasn't Beyond the Frontier a proof of concept as well?

Wasn't Beyond the Frontier the initial experiment for our entire, beloved, X Series?

Is Rebirth the initial Experiment for a new Series after Beyond the Frontier?

I compare Rebirth with Beyond the Frontier since its release... why are so many Vets comparing it with X3 or X2?

I simply can not understand this...

XBtF and XR are both the Start of a Series... you can not compare the Start of a Story with its final Chapter... that is literally impossible... or at last very spoiling.

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Post by Graaf » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 17:41

If you are going to buy a new car, do you look for improvements over your previous car or will you compare it to the model T Ford?

If Rebirth didn't have Station Building and Boarding, them maybe you can only compare it to X:BtF. But it does, so we compare it to the later editions.
Also the story continues from X3:Albion Prelude so why shouldn't we?

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Post by bambikaka » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 18:05

eMYNOCK wrote:
Santi wrote:...
At the end of the day X Rebirth is something new, proof of concept? Yes of course, as there are so many new gameplay elements. I would rather like that they expand over what Rebirth does well, than go again and design everything from scratch.
Wasn't Beyond the Frontier a proof of concept as well?

Wasn't Beyond the Frontier the initial experiment for our entire, beloved, X Series?

Is Rebirth the initial Experiment for a new Series after Beyond the Frontier?

I compare Rebirth with Beyond the Frontier since its release... why are so many Vets comparing it with X3 or X2?

I simply can not understand this...

XBtF and XR are both the Start of a Series... you can not compare the Start of a Story with its final Chapter... that is literally impossible... or at last very spoiling.
its not about comparing it to anything, this game is bad and lacking of gameplay no matter what game you compare it. its UI is bad independently if we compare it to xbtf or x3, its AI is horrible no matter if we compare it to xbtf or x3... etc etc etc. why ppl bring up x3 when discussing xr is because we already have seen what is possible in an x game and now we have got one that is, instead of improving on the prequel, it became far worse than that.

saying that ppl are stupid comparing xr to x3 is just pointless, we dont compare the two games, we dont have to compare the two games, if x3 would have never existed xr is still bad.

as graaf pointed out, when you buy a new car you dont want i to be an improved version of your last car, you want it to be something better or different but getting a car in 2016 that is on the level of a t model is just not acceptable though it was a miracle car a long time ago...

just imagine whenever your favourite mouse manufacturer release a new model they would say, ohh we wanted something new that is not like our last product so we removed right and mid button because our very first mouse had only left button as well, but at least we have recolored it. maybe a later iteration will have a right button... it would be stupid wouldnt it?

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Post by The Q » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 18:18

bambikaka wrote:its not about comparing it to anything...its UI is bad independently if we compare it to xbtf or x3, its AI is horrible no matter if we compare it to xbtf or x3... etc etc etc.
"It's not about comparing, but hey let's compare it." :)
bambikaka wrote:saying that ppl are stupid comparing xr to x3 is just pointless...
Right, just that no one said that people comparing XR to X3 would be stupid in the first place. But thanks for bringing an aggressive tone into a discussion yet again, which was friendly beforehand.
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 15. Nov 16, 18:37

eMYNOCK wrote:I compare Rebirth with Beyond the Frontier since its release... why are so many Vets comparing it with X3 or X2?
I can tell you why I do that: it's because comparing it to X:BtF is, in my opinion, not relevant. Some ppl keep saying how "this is the launch of a new franchise, and should be considered separately from the most recent predecessors" - I say that's poppycock. I like what Graaf said: "If you are going to buy a new car, do you look for improvements over your previous car or will you compare it to the model T Ford?" What I've repeatedly pointed out is that just throwing out whatever innovations and techniques were implemented in the games following after X:BtF (so, X2, X3R, X3TC, and X3AP) makes no sense, even in a "brand new concept", not if its context is similar to those previous titles - they ARE all space flying/fighting/trading/building games, after all, aren't they? The so-called "full reset" argument is no argument at all - it's an excuse, nothing more.

If every time a company decided to change directions in a game but stay within the bounds of its genre, then every new FPS should be getting compared to, what, Quake? DOOM? Wolfenstein 3D? Every new RTS to Dune II or Warcraft: Humans vs Orcs, instead of to something like StarCraft II, or one of the more recent Command & Conquers (which are already quite aged in any case)? That's absurd. So I say it's equally absurd that a current(ish) space-sim release should be compared to an 18-yr old title, rather than to "the previous best thing" (arguably still THE best thing) of only several years ago, for crying out loud! So why this special treatment for Rebirth? Excessive protectiveness and unquestioning blind loyalty, perhaps? Because a logical rationale does not fit...

bambikaka wrote:...why ppl bring up x3 when discussing xr is because we already have seen what is possible in an x game
Well said!

Graaf wrote:Why would the Rebirth Engine not be able to support the game mechanics of X2/X3?

It's the Game we have issues with, not the Engine.

The current game design, not the engine, is mostly the reason for both the potential to expand and simultaneously to not allow any meaningful expansion. The crippling single ship limitation is a nice example of the latter.
100% agree. I will provide another couple of trivial examples. The fact that they are trivial in fact STRENGTHENS the point, as it means they would have been trivially easy to implement, but were omitted nonetheless:

For one thing, why are so many screens not toggled? For example, zone and sector map: in previous X titles, you hit . or , to bring up local or wide-area map, respectively, and then you could hit same key again to dismiss it. But not in Rebirth, oh no! No, instead, we have to travel across the keyboard to either Esc or Del - pointless and unnecessary. This has NOTHING to do with "new engines" - AND all the components are already there, they simply have not been linked properly: the keyboard control hook is there, and the map pop-up and removal are there - it would take a line of code or less to change that absolute ". = display zone map" to ". = TOGGLE zone map".

Here's another: it took till v3.5 or 3.6 (or was it 4.0?) before we could target a unit in the minimap - why?? Again, this had nothing to do with engines and newness, this was an oversight, pure and simple. The fact that it was corrected merely proves that it was doable (as if proof were needed!) I keep seeing some people defending ES with "arguments" about the new engine being unable to accommodate a variety of features and functions - to me, this is merely excuse-making by misguided blind loyalty. Yes, there are no doubt SOME elements that the engine cannot currently accommodate (though chances are, some of THOSE are not really excusable either, but should have been taken into account from the start - but that's another story for another day), but there are SO MANY omissions that don't fall in that category (some of them proven so by our talented modding community), and which to this day have been left unaddressed.

Btw, Egosoft, if you see this, please please PLEASE add a "highway music on/off" setting, or even splash out for an entire volume slider! ;) In fact, combat music could use its own volume slider, too. It really ticks me off, having the volume set so that I can enjoy the beautiful ambient music while travelling in sectors, only to have enemies pop up and the volume jumps, or enter a highway and get REALLY blasted! Not great for a game that likes to be played at night (space, you know...), when the options are to disturb the neighbours or be unable to hear the best of the soundtrack, only "enjoying" the rather less-good parts of it...

Good hunting :)
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