So i've almost mapped the entire univers

[pref]

I can't see why you can't have both a procedurally generated universe AND custom content. It should be perfectly possible to use a seed to create the base layer of the universe and then the hand built "map" just contains what's been added to it to make each place more unique and interesting.

Because of hardware requirements. Procgen's point would be a huge number of zones (thousands or mills) which is well beyond our PCs capability if it comes to the simulation of the objects within.
A smaller number of zones is quicker to handcraft then writing a proper algorithm that can generate them (lets say a couple 100 considering HW limits and XR's CPU & mem consumption).
Either way its just about manhours even if we assume the algorithm has just as good results as handcrafted content and lacks the usual boeredom factor entirely - meaning it has no real effect on the game except for a lower price perhaps in the ideal case where ES is really quick, intuitive and lucky writing that generation routine.

But X zones/sectors dont need too much time, anyone can design a couple 10 zones in few days that makes sense economically and satisfies lore conditions. Place a few stations, pick some background objects done by the art team and define local ship spawns perhaps. And it needs no dev skills, so costs are a bit lower then sending your coders on a procgen routine.

But if that makes anyone more happy im pretty sure roids are procgen'd so X series has this feature already xD

Where i would LOVE procgen though is X3 style Xenon ships.
Those could look really good with that art style, and would match lore so much while making Xenon ships more varied looking - and if capabilities would depend on the routine as well maybe more interesting to fight even.
XRs insectoids just dont fit for me nowhere near as much as the X3 'bauhaus' design.

[Ezarkal]

But if that makes anyone more happy im pretty sure roids are procgen'd so X series has this feature already xD

I'm not sure about that point. My usual spacefly egg farming spots are the same from game to game. Unless I'm hallucinating, it's always the same number of nvidium roid in the same spots from game to game. (At the very least for Albion and OL)

[UniTrader]

But if that makes anyone more happy im pretty sure roids are procgen'd so X series has this feature already xD

I'm not sure about that point. My usual spacefly egg farming spots are the same from game to game. Unless I'm hallucinating, it's always the same number of nvidium roid in the same spots from game to game. (At the very least for Albion and OL)

well, there are only very few static asteroids defined in the game files (if at all) - they are all defined via fields based on things like seeds, noisefactors and yield ranges. which is procedural generation.

[RAVEN.myst]

Where i would LOVE procgen though is X3 style Xenon ships.
Those could look really good with that art style, and would match lore so much while making Xenon ships more varied looking - and if capabilities would depend on the routine as well maybe more interesting to fight even.
XRs insectoids just dont fit for me nowhere near as much as the X3 'bauhaus' design.

Ooo, I LOVE this idea! Mix'n'match jaggedy blocks yielding variations on the J and K designs, and why not. And as you say, the weapon configuration of a ship could serve as seed or part thereof, influencing the overall look, so true veterans could eventually start discerning some of what they're up against from a visual inspection before scans. I, too, don't like the supposedly ominous-looking bug motif.

But if that makes anyone more happy im pretty sure roids are procgen'd so X series has this feature already xD

I'm not sure about that point. My usual spacefly egg farming spots are the same from game to game. Unless I'm hallucinating, it's always the same number of nvidium roid in the same spots from game to game. (At the very least for Albion and OL)

There is a common misconception that "procedurally generated" equals "random-generated" - this is not necessarily true, and in fact some of the best examples of well executed procgen yield consistent, predictable results. One such example is the original Elite, arguably the granddaddy of our beloved genre - the seed plus the generation algorithm resulted in a specific universe geometry, and in so doing saving huge amounts of memory that the hardware of the time was nowhere near even being able to deliver, allowing a 2048-system (each with a star, a planet, a station, a dozen+ socio-economic stats that affected local prices and NPCs, a procelist of wares, and a local NPC population) universe to be created to play in, on a machine with 10s of KILOBYTES of RAM. Even the system names were procedurally generated out of component syllables, yet you always knew that you would be starting in the cluster of Lave, Diso and Leesti, and once familiar you would know what economies and what political/government types to expect. And the universe was the same every time, which was its STRENGTH - when exchanging anecdotes with a friend who also played, you were both playing in the same universe, even if different instances of it. Also, a consistent universe adds greatly to immersion, as well as providing opportunities for lore-building (in some cases, the reverse is the case - the lore shapes areas/aspects of the universe.)

Random "procgen" is actually the sort that is likely to lead to boredom and blandness. Reproducible procgen (ie. with fixed seeding parameters) is the one with the potential for quality of design, especially if it is then refined and touched up by hand - the final edit, in my opinion, HAS to be taken out of the AGIs' hands

[Nanook]

...
Because of hardware requirements. Procgen's point would be a huge number of zones (thousands or mills) which is well beyond our PCs capability if it comes to the simulation of the objects within.....

It wouldn't have to be. That's just your interpretation. There have been plenty of well known and great games that take the procedurally generated route very successfully. Practically all 4X games are that way. Master of Orion would've been a one shot wonder without it, for example. And yet, many people continue to play it to this day.

It would be great, I think, if the X Universe world would get 'mixed up' a bit each time you played, just so you don't automatically know where everything is located from the very start. IMO, that's the real weakness of the X games; once you've learned the universe layout, there's no sense of exploration, and other aspects of the game become much easier.

[Andoulline]

It would be great, I think, if the X Universe world would get 'mixed up' a bit each time you played, just so you don't automatically know where everything is located from the very start. IMO, that's the real weakness of the X games; once you've learned the universe layout, there's no sense of exploration, and other aspects of the game become much easier.

Yeah I could see some randomized station locations working. Like have a few important stations in fixed places (shipyards, refueling stations if we're keeping those, equipment docks if we're going back to those ect...) But randomly distributing industrial stations, mining stations, in appropriate zones in the sector or system depending on how "lore appropriate" it is.

[RAVEN.myst]

I could also see a two-level treasure/Easter Egg system, where some (for example) abandoned ships are always in the same locations, while others are distributed randomly - and where even the number and types of those random ones can vary. The first category could be plot/lore related (I've personally always disliked fixed starting locations for high-value loot like that, as it feels like cheating going after them, so I end up pretending to myself that I don't know it's there and making a point of NOT going there at all, which is equally unrealistic - after all, the first time I found whatever it was, was by exploring that area!) and very limited in number. Personally, I approve of the change from TC to AP, where TC's fixed-location ownerless ships were removed in AP, and replaced by randomly placed Kha'ak vessels (I would have preferred more variation in the types of craft available, though.)

On an economic level, good ol' "GoD" has the effect of slightly reshaping the universe from one game to the next, but I think it's been nerfed too much in AP (and there's no analogue at all in Rebirth) - I think it ought to not touch vital singular entities such as shipyards and marine training barracks, but be a little more active with rearranging the low-tech stuff such as food, and fall somewhere between the two regarding high-tech stuff. Some exceptions could be made in order to build lore - for example, a particular area could be a vital and dominant agricultural centre, so farms would never be taken out of there, and certainly you'd see sectors/areas that are famous for their particular industries, such as weapons production or civilian high tech - these would, likewise, be relatively untouched. (Currently, Rebirth is ALL like this - in every game, all the same stations are always in the same places. This is one of the reasons I used to enjoy helping RoC and HoA build up their new stations in DV - but then all that resulted was that THOSE stations were always there, in the same places! hahahah) But more "generic" areas could look quite different from one game to the next; this wouldn't only be cosmetic, but would add a level of challenge and require some adaptability that I experienced to some extent in X3TC, where I would often find that a SPP (or some other station) that I tended to depend on was not present in its customary location in a new game, and I would have to work around that - do I build elsewhere? Do I build in the usual place and accept the fact that my supply lines may be somewhat longer? Do I fill in what's missing by building it myself?

[pref]

...
Because of hardware requirements. Procgen's point would be a huge number of zones (thousands or mills) which is well beyond our PCs capability if it comes to the simulation of the objects within.....

It would be great, I think, if the X Universe world would get 'mixed up' a bit each time you played, just so you don't automatically know where everything is located from the very start. IMO, that's the real weakness of the X games; once you've learned the universe layout, there's no sense of exploration, and other aspects of the game become much easier.

Well the feature you mention here already exists as GoD. I wouldnt call that procedural generation as it just mutates the map, and the topic wasnt raised in that context - more arose from the world size aspect, where the amount of objects would require a server park to run all usual X AI tasks on it. Or ES gives up on permanent objects (just generate a likely traffic on enter, ships ceize to exist when player leaves etc).

GoD was a nice feature, i could turn barren sectors all around using it - build a couple of stations for missions, ensure a nice coverage with trade ships and the sectors went on an economic boom - instead of 3-5 have 20-30 stations in it over a few days play time. And it worked the other way around too.
Expanding this feature would make way more sense then procgen that's for sure.
Reshuffling the map right at start would also be welcome in specific game starts - but sometimes it feels good to jump back into that 'same old world' imo.

[spankahontis]

...
Because of hardware requirements. Procgen's point would be a huge number of zones (thousands or mills) which is well beyond our PCs capability if it comes to the simulation of the objects within.....

It wouldn't have to be. That's just your interpretation. There have been plenty of well known and great games that take the procedurally generated route very successfully. Practically all 4X games are that way. Master of Orion would've been a one shot wonder without it, for example. And yet, many people continue to play it to this day.

It would be great, I think, if the X Universe world would get 'mixed up' a bit each time you played, just so you don't automatically know where everything is located from the very start. IMO, that's the real weakness of the X games; once you've learned the universe layout, there's no sense of exploration, and other aspects of the game become much easier.

I agree here.. I feel myself playing Rebirth less and less because I've discovered everything.
Even the Disco Mine Cat Easter Egg lol

There is nothing left but random spawns of Pirates, Xenon and Lockboxes.

I hear what Pref is saying and respect the Herculean task it would probably be.
But, personally I think Egosoft can pull off something that isn't as massive as No Mans Sky or Elite: Dangerous.

Just 20 -30 Random Unknown Systems with Worlds you can build Colonies the way you build Stations would be massive.

Even if from Orbit to the Planet Surface was a load screen style switch.

Or even special Capital Ships that take you to the Planet Surface, You can walk around on a small stretch of the Planet Surface, turn it into a Colony.
Image even building special colony station modules like building space stations where ships can land and trade in what goods you make.
Add residential modules that feed on your produce giving you a guaranteed revenue.

[RAVEN.myst]

Yes, I would also enjoy having a "fluid space" portion of the universe that is mostly randomized (with the occasional hand-crafted item spawned here or there - that could provide a specific mapping objective) and which is outside of the lore-world, and totally ignorable if desired. Hell, lore could even be built around it, to explain WHY this area of the universe can never be fully mapped (by NPCs, at any rate), as being anomalous, perhaps as a side-effect of supernova/black hole. It could even be implemented in two ways: some areas that are randomly generated at game-start and remain stable thereafter, and other areas that are actually fluid, and thus can change between visits.

I take back the "totally ignorable" bit, partially: the plot could have the player make one or two forays into this space in a manner to advance the narrative (and also to introduce the player to the area) - this could be analogous, in a sense, to how the UFJD sectors in TC/AP are largely optional and irrelevant, but are used briefly in both titles' plots, and also provide the potential for a unique collectable (Aran). However, I would like such an area of "tormented space" or whatever to be designed a lot better than the UFJD sectors were - other than completing plot objectives and capturing an Aran, I never went to those, as they were a bland, repetitive yawn-fest of pointlessness - largely because they were instances that despawned after being left, so there was no permanence, no mapping prospects, no development possibilities.

[Nanook]

...
Because of hardware requirements. Procgen's point would be a huge number of zones (thousands or mills) which is well beyond our PCs capability if it comes to the simulation of the objects within.....

It would be great, I think, if the X Universe world would get 'mixed up' a bit each time you played, just so you don't automatically know where everything is located from the very start. IMO, that's the real weakness of the X games; once you've learned the universe layout, there's no sense of exploration, and other aspects of the game become much easier.

Well the feature you mention here already exists as GoD....

Nope. GoD is something totally different. As it exists in AP, it does nothing very much, only removing/replacing a few stations at most. I don't even see any real evidence of it in Rebirth, since stations can never be destroyed.

No, what I'm talking about is mixing up the sectors a bit, giving the various races control over different regions of space, etc. And I wouldn't really worry about the 'lore' since that seems to be highly variable throughout the various iterations of the games anyway. There are very few lore items that would prevent such a mixing, and those could be worked around.

Besides, the biggest piece of the lore is about the so-called Ancients changing the gates around on a whim.

[pref]

What i would like to see is if GoD was also linked with military actions on top of economy - continuous similar outcome battles could change faction borders, and then this could affect a plot, and have different paths based on what side the player interferes on frequently (or doesnt at all).
Even if it could only affect a handful of border zones it would still grant some weight to npc and player actions and make the universe more dynamic in a way that is tied to the player and not to random.

In most cases the game benefits more imo if such changes are a result of gameplay and not result of a semi random function, as 'alive' more or less means a higher number of sensible reactions to player actions throughout the whole game world - not just a huge number of different but similar possible configurations.

Nope. GoD is something totally different. As it exists in AP, it does nothing very much, only removing/replacing a few stations at most. I don't even see any real evidence of it in Rebirth, since stations can never be destroyed.

Yeah XR has nothing even comparable to GoD - whole place is completely static (duh), but what GoD did was changing the sectors' layout and it was a function of economic variables.
Its essentially the same procedure what we discussed in past 2 posts, it just wasnt nearly as powerful as it should have been, and had less ties to player actions then it should have.
If i understand it right i promote the same thing as you or raven.

[RAVEN.myst]

If i understand it right i promote the same thing as you or raven.

Yes, you and I are indeed seeing eye to eye on this I, too, would love a more responsive universe, with the GoD enhancements you mention, as well as (perhaps a tad ambitious, but this is done routinely in other games - though admittedly those games tend to be ABOUT this sort of thing) factions/races actually disputing areas and taking control of them. I envision a universe wherein, say, the Split take a sector from the Boron (let's assume that total war hostilities flare up again over a border), and after levelling most of it (trying, perhaps, to save any SPPs and asteroid mines in the sector), start gradually rebuilding, replacing what they blew up with their own equivalents - so, BoFu chem-labs get replaced with rastar refineries, and so forth... In addition to the obvious racial relation implications on access to the system, such changes would have far-reaching effects on economic balance and the availability of certain techs (for example, fewer IonDs but more mass drivers being manufactured, SQUASH mines instead of ion mines, etc.)

[spankahontis]

If i understand it right i promote the same thing as you or raven.

Yes, you and I are indeed seeing eye to eye on this I, too, would love a more responsive universe, with the GoD enhancements you mention, as well as (perhaps a tad ambitious, but this is done routinely in other games - though admittedly those games tend to be ABOUT this sort of thing) factions/races actually disputing areas and taking control of them. I envision a universe wherein, say, the Split take a sector from the Boron (let's assume that total war hostilities flare up again over a border), and after levelling most of it (trying, perhaps, to save any SPPs and asteroid mines in the sector), start gradually rebuilding, replacing what they blew up with their own equivalents - so, BoFu chem-labs get replaced with rastar refineries, and so forth... In addition to the obvious racial relation implications on access to the system, such changes would have far-reaching effects on economic balance and the availability of certain techs (for example, fewer IonDs but more mass drivers being manufactured, SQUASH mines instead of ion mines, etc.)

I think a great idea for what you put with waring factions is the ability to do the Diplomatic Relations Chain missions to broker a Ceasefire between the 2 Factions.

And this is where the "choose a side and provide them with arms or deal arms to both sides of the war" selling point (that Egosoft pitched to us before Rebirth even came out) would truly shine.

You see the Boron are losing the war, so you can either help along their demise by arms dealing with the Split, or you can help broker Peace through a Diplomatic Aid Chain Mission or help the Boron by supplying them what they need to win the arms race or just take advantage of the war and help both sides.

[RAVEN.myst]

Indeed - for the concept to really shine, the player needs to be able to influence it, in ways small and large, rather than be a mere spectator in a randomly decided (or pre-scripted) course of events. In addition to economic aid or diplomatic influence, one could also meddle in a purely military fashion: rock up at a big battle with a fully loaded carrier, a couple of destroyers, a missile frigate or five, a bunch of superfreighters filled to the gills with ammo, and decide the battle for one side or the other, with lasting consequences. Of course, this (and the weapons aid you propose) would depend on the game tracking economies and assets of factions in a meaningful way, in other words, no more magic spawning/despawning of materiel - since that is something we have yet to see even a hint of in any X title, I figure it would involve not only an overhaul of game engines, but of Egosoft's entire philosophy and way of thinking...

EDIT: I can see myself turning coat multiple times: siding with the underdog, helping them to take the upper hand, then switch to backing the new underdog, ad nauseam, heheheh. If properly implemented (in terms of wares and other assets being produced and consumed in a proper manner) I could see such a prolonged war both stimulating certain segments of the economy (weapons and munitions factories would be coining it) while others are put under strain (food being consumed rapidly by weapons factories might create shortages -which in turn can be exploitable opportunities-, and also factories and other stations that are war casualties would impact the economy.)

[pref]

I can see myself turning coat multiple times: siding with the underdog, helping them to take the upper hand, then switch to backing the new underdog, ad nauseam, heheheh. If properly implemented (in terms of wares and other assets being produced and consumed in a proper manner) I could see such a prolonged war both stimulating certain segments of the economy (weapons and munitions factories would be coining it) while others are put under strain (food being consumed rapidly by weapons factories might create shortages -which in turn can be exploitable opportunities-, and also factories and other stations that are war casualties would impact the economy.)

Would be nice if economic demand was altered according to events in the area. Could even be modded in XR so not that much out of scope. Nor is zone ownership change based on kill counts/ship presence.
Pity such routine's best place is in the engine - but it would be possible to mod something like these with more simple decision rules.
With this though it could already get pretty realistic, comparable to what big players in politics do nowdays xD

[phantomrock2]

The problem with procedural created Universes/Systems/Worlds is implementing actual gameplay content, till someone cracks the nut of procedural created content (missions and stuff to do), the cost of developing content in a fixed Universe will be a lot cheaper as compared to one able to cope with all the variables of a random Universe.

You either constraint the parameters for the procedural stuff as to fit the gameplay, hence limiting what can be created, or you run wild and risk the player being locked and forced to restart.

EXACTLY

[phantomrock2]

I disagree, following trends was never a thing I thought was a good idea. I always thought people who find their own (new) ways to things are to be encouraged, but then again I'm a nerd, so what do I know about trends.

From what I read in past posts I guess we all agree, some like partial crafting, some like full crafting and no one really likes full on robot made worlds. But just to be clear, partial implementation of "procedural" elements is quite a big difference from procedural generated game worlds/levels.

Some one mentioned the UFJD sectors, but those are hardly procedural, its a collection of manually crafted assets that are put together in a somewhat random fashion. Which is why I disagree with

except with algorithms you can add anything. diversity too. you know, you dont have to create EVERYTHING with procedural generation, the pieces you build the world up from can be real piece of arts

Thats is not how art works though, imagine you build a very nice location and put it in your so called algorithm, if it is found many times it will not be art, as its not special, it means nothing since its found often, possibly out of context. If you only use it once then its not procedural. The more you trim stuff so it can be used as procedural assets, the less character it will have, so you cant have both.

Which is why I though that MMO are possibly the only place where this type of algorithm makes some sense, due to scale, you can have infinite creation, with no character (or very poor) but that is OK given its not a main focus. In NMS you get lots of variation, but does anyone care about it, and is it truly different? Dont think so, I look at videos and I see the same building blocks shaped differently, but I see the blocks. Its as if I would go to watch a movie and they would show the film crew in the scenes.

Sadly, I think that much of pop music since the mid-80s and Stock Aitken Waterman has actually been too formulaic and almost "procedural" in a sense

Yes but its crap is it not? Not saying its not used, just that the outcome of formulaic/procedural creation hardly ever resulted in a masterpiece, other than in the field of creating the formulas.

MFG

Ketraar

I AGREE AS WELL! Art starts with the maker NOT copying someone else. Being a musician myself for over 20 years I often tell people & other musicians that when you sit & try to do something just to be accepted then you have lost about 60% of the fight. BE YOURSELF! That's the true artist right there the one who does whats coming from their heart not trying or doing something so they can be accepted by the norm & the masses. I notice that when I was in Europe the really true REAL ORIGINAL artists were there. However, when I came back across the pond...

[UniTrader]

I AGREE AS WELL! Art starts with the maker NOT consciously copying someone else.

fixed it for you because you can never be sure if there is already something similiar out there in the world or not. or if you have been inspired subconsciously by something you dont remember anymore (and there is quite a good chance that this is the case ^^)

[Ketraar]

I'd argue that if you make something similar without knowing, then its not copying, since making a copy kinda relys on the fact that you do it based on a template.

MFG

Ketraar