Love Rebirth - Should I play X3:TC?

Blightedmythos · Post by **Blightedmythos** » Tue, 17. May 16, 23:25

Been mostly enjoying the game. Sure there are a lot of little clunky things and the learning curve was really steep (mostly due to bad UI design), but I can't help but love the game. I mostly enjoy the capital ships, station design, and trading elements.

So my question is, what's different in X3:TC that is worth checking out? I tried to google differences and couldn't find any. So I am asking you guys to help me out. I don't mind a few spoilers and please add anything else you can think of.

How does the trading differ?

How about station building? Is it more elaborate and profitable? How so?

How about the different ships? Are there more of them?

Post by **Alan Phipps** » Tue, 17. May 16, 23:37

Moved to gameplay forum for X3TC.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 18. May 16, 00:35

Wow, talk about a tricky question - and the "other way round" to the norm, too

Answering it thoroughly is too big of a job, especially as it will keep me out of my X3 game

But I'll at least try to tackle some of the specifics you asked:

SHIPS

Yes, there are more of them, but not only more ships, but more TYPES of ships, and more roles. So, your combat ships include: scouts, light figther/interceptors, fighters, heavy fighters, bombers/missile gunships, corvettes, heavy corvettes, frigates, light-carrier frigates, missile frigates, destroyers, super-destroyers, carriers, super-carriers. You also get a variety of freighters, troop transports, and military transports. IMPORTANT: you can personally pilot/captain ANY ship (with the exception of a couple of exotic alien ships - a handful out of almost 300 ships.)

Each race has its own very distinctive feel and flavour, both visually AND thematically/functionally - so, for instance, one of the races has ships that are faster than most, with aggressive weapons, but is lighter on shields - ideal for skilled dogfighters; on the other hand, another race favours heavier shields and larger cargo and the use of ammo-based weapons at the cost of speed - good for tanks/turtlers.

Also of significance is the much greater degree of weapon loadout customisation - some weapons are available to (almost) all races, while others are race-specific. There are different weapons with different functions, such as guns that only drain shields but inflict insignificant hull damage, others that are balanced, one that ignores shields altogether and goes straight through to score the hull, special anti-fighter flak guns, dedicated anti-capital guns, a variety of missiles (both single-munition and swarm types) for various target types and sizes.

STATIONS

Stations work rather differently, and some prefer the old system while others prefer the new (Rebirth). Stations build instantly instead of gradually as they do in Rebirth (personally, I like the Rebirth construction style, in this regard.) They are generally smaller and MUCH more modular - when you build a complex, you decide EXACTLY how many of what you put in - and you're not committed, you an always add more. In terms of profitability, it's not really practical to try to compare the two, as the economy scales are rather different - I find it generally easier (too easy, in fact) to make money in Rebirth, but far more satisfying in X3TC/AP - more sense of accomplishment.

While you don't get station managers per se in X3 (other than a few buy/sell settings, and such), you can exert far greater control over how your stations operate and trade, by means of the trade commands available to the ships serving your stations. Also, you can turn individual factories on/off, which can be really handy if a factory in a complex is unbalancing your resource usage and you need to suspend it for a while.

You can hangar your inactive ships inside stations, both your own and those of NP factions.

TRADE

How trading differs could fill a book, quite literally. In some ways it's more extensive and controllable, and in some ways less so. For instance, there's no trade screen and deal-finder computer like there are in Rebirth, both very powerful tools, and so personally managed trading can be a bit more difficult (but very doable). On the other hand, there are various ways to set up automated trading and logistics, both station-bound and free-roaming (without having to resort to third-party mods). The universe is larger and populated with FAR more stations ie. suppliers and customers, so you can grow your trading empire far more before you start saturating markets.

I'll stop there WRT trade, as it's like I said - one could go on forever. Suffice to say, there are a lot of differences in this aspect, some better some worse.

UNIVERSE "GEOGRAPHY"

OK, it's space, so GEOgraphy isn't strictly speaking correct, but I think you get my drift - I refer to the relative structure of the universe. Here, I find (personally) that Rebirth is more interesting, with its multi-tiered hierarchy of locations. Previous X titles all share a flat arrangement - the entire map is representable on a flat plane, a latticework of sorts. While I find this arrangement less interesting, many prefer it for its greater accessibility/simplicity. Navigation is certainly simpler.

PERSONAL OPINION/SUMMATION

For me, Rebirth has not yet (and is unlikely to, not in its current generation) reached anywhere near the levels of enjoyment I get from the older Xs (I've played several 100s hrs of Rebirth, 1000s of the rest, mostly X3TC+AP) - I find that the previous Xs give me far more freedom to choose how to get things done in-game, and also more choices of WHO TO BE in the game: in X3TC or AP, it's viable to "role-play" an Argon, a Terran, a Boron, a Paranid, a Teladi, a Split... and any of those can be played as a warmonger, a trader, a station-builder, or any combination of the above and more - and any of those options can be played in various different ways. How do I make money as a warrior? Do I accept ever more lucrative missions? Or do I focus on developing a strong boarding party to capture ships? As a merchant, do I focus on free-trading universe traders, or do I set up a commerce hub and run a network of commercial agents from there? Do I build standalone factories or complexes? What goods to I focus on? Or do I generalise? How do I assmeble my fleets? Do I use missile-artillery based forces, thus do I build missile forges to supply my fleet? I could go on and on - the options are practically limitless.

My own, biased, subjective experience: while I have really enjoyed Rebirth, I played several months of it over several visits - every time a major update comes out I play it, enjoy it more than the last time, but ultimately put it down in favour of X3AP (though TC would do just as well, in the absence of AP).

So, the short answer is: Yes, personally I highly recommend you to try it, if you're considering it. Word of caution: expect a VERY different game!

PS: please be aware that, although quite lengthy, my answer is FAR from comprehensive. Also, while I tried to be as objective as possible, I think my bias in favour of Egosoft's earlier work is quite plain to see.

Blightedmythos · Post by **Blightedmythos** » Wed, 18. May 16, 02:55

Thanks for the super in depth reply. I guess everytime I attempt to play it I feel so overwhelmed. I don't really get this since of feeling with Rebirth. Not sure why. Sounds like I should give the game a try again. Is the campaign worth slugging through, I liked Rebirths but X3:TC's I find boring. Maybe it gets better? Any tips to make it better would be great.

I'm excited for more customization and ship options. I really like the current station design in Rebirth, not sure if I'll like the changes going back. No auto trading drives me crazy, excited for that.

Is there a point to having Capital ships and super carriers? Do I need to protect my assets? In Rebirth I haven't really needed defences which I find a bummer.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 18. May 16, 03:54

X3TC has the longest plots among all of the X titles, however they don't exactly comprise a "campaign" in the traditional sense. There is one plot that is the "main campaign" of sorts, but it's not even the longest of the plots (not by a long shot!) Personally, I really enjoy the long plots. However, their downside is that they lack the video presentation of the earlier titles (especially The Threat and Reunion), and the character attachment of those and Rebirth (though for me Rebirth rather fails in that department too, with "Ren Otani" being something of a non-entity to me, and don't even get me started on Annoyisha! heheheh)

Some players, however, aren't that keen on the long plots in X3TC. Nevertheless, to your questions of "is it worth doing them?", the simple answer is "pretty much", as they provide a variety of rewards and benefits that you can't get any other way. Some of these are desirable, some are important, and some are totally optional (some players don't care about having a sector named after them, especially given the price tag, and so are able to save themselves a lot of scratch.) Plot rewards include unique and non-unique ships, unique facilities/stations (including the super-useful and versatile Xenon Hub), the abovementioned personalised territory, access to unique sectors, as well as access to further plots, and more.

I'm currently re-playing the whole X series, right from X: Beyond the Frontier, and am currently up to Reunion, the one right before X3TC - and I'm VERY MUCH looking forward to the next one, as I look forward to re-playing all those plots. But again, this is a matter of personal preference.

Regarding capital ships and whether it's worth having them: in X3TC you will pretty much end up needing some to complete some of the more advanced plots (well, occasional parts of them). Regarding protection your assets (especially such as stations) - it mostly depends on where you build, but for the most part I find enemy actions vs stations to be equally deficient, sadly, but because X3TC stations don't pack their own guns, they do need some ships to pick up the slack (small attacks do happen, and if ignored CAN cause grievous damage.)

If you decide to make war on any of the factions, you will certainly need powerful ships, and that's where they can be great fun to own. On another note (ships in general, not just capitals) - if you are the sort who likes to collect stuff, especially unique stuff, then X3TC is great, as it's teeming with opportunities to snag, by various means, a serious variety of vessels.

As for "any tips to make it better", I can point you at this bit from another thread, about TM ships, which I find to be a HUGE quality of life enhancer in the early to mid-game: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=4

Good hunting!

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Wed, 18. May 16, 04:09

Having not played Rebirth I can't speak to comparing the learning curves, but I've compared the learning curve of X3TC to a cliff that never ends. The biggest reason to play through at least the Terran Defender plot is that it gives you at least a glimpse of major handholds on that cliff. It may not show you how to do things, but it at least tells you a lot of the major things that you can set out to figure out how to try.

Triaxx2 · Post by **Triaxx2** » Wed, 18. May 16, 05:47

TC isn't about the campaign. TC is about the freedom to play the game how you choose. I've had far more fun playing the game as a pirate than I ever have playing the plots. Which isn't quite a fair comparison, because the plots are generally a lot of fun. But making my own fun outside of them is just that much better.

Pick a race, and harass them exclusively. Pirate their ships, steal their cargo, destroy their stations. Wage total war upon them. Or defend your race from all others. Befriend pirates. Take control of Xenon Sectors from them. Lay WASTE TO ALL BEFORE YOU!

And then start into the harder stuff. Empire management. Trading. Mods.

Blightedmythos · Post by **Blightedmythos** » Wed, 18. May 16, 15:22

Lastly, the age old debate of do I start with X3:TC or X3:AP. I have both from a bundle. I am concerned X3:TC will be too easy with the ability to trade more freely (something that I can do in X Rebirth that annoys me). On the other hand, X3:TC may be easier to get into. I'm just not sure I'll ever get around to playing both, so I want to make sure I pick the right one.

Sirrobert · Post by **Sirrobert** » Wed, 18. May 16, 15:34

There's very little difference between AP and TC, you won't find any trouble with 'starting the wrong one'

AP has a couple of quality of life improvements that I personally can't live without anymore. Though it's been a long time since I played TC, so I can't remember the details

Honved · Post by **Honved** » Wed, 18. May 16, 15:41

X3, both TC and AP, are essentially complete sandboxes to do virtually anything you want. There are plots, but they're optional. Unfortunately, the main plot is generally required in order to access or complete some of the other plots.

In TC, the initial Terran sector crawl is frustrating. You've got a semi-slow ship traversing the largest sectors of the game, and the tedium borders on lethal. After the first few missions, it picks up. The "purpose" of the main plot is that it introduces you to a variety of concepts, functions, and regions with different races. You learn to fight, deliver cargo and trade, pick up and drop off passengers, set up a small network of satellites to monitor traffic, and even conduct boarding operations.

The game has a rather clunky interface, with a disproportionate share of the more useful and frequently accessed functions under the "Advanced" tab. This is apparently because of the incremental design of the game with more and more features being tacked on, rather than being designed from scratch as a functional whole. The game mechanics are good, the user interface....not so much.

While the initial stages of the game seem to be interminably slow, once you've set up a couple of freighters, and use remote trading software to control them, you'll have plenty to do during those long transits across sectors. Incidentally, putting two of those "manually operated remote traders" (MORTs) into your left and right upper corner video screens can allow you to access them quickly, or check up on their progress easily. Once you've got a fleet, putting two of those ships in the monitors serves as a kind of "hot key" to access them.

Half of the random missions available at stations are very useful, half are broken or mostly pointless. A lot of the Trade missions, for instance, will generally require a ship that's about 25% larger than what you've got available, so you really can't do them without all sorts of advanced equipment and some experience at the game. Convoy escorts are cakewalks at starting level, but the opponents get increasingly tougher, until they can waste the freighters you're escorting with little more than a shot in passing, making the missions almost impossible. The opponents get a lot tougher, but the convoys remain fragile. Recovering stolen ships can be lucrative if you've got the tools to meet the deadline (such as transferring a Jumpdrive to the abandoned ship, jumping it to the destination sector, and then transferring your drive to another ship of yours waiting there), or far more difficult without.

Overall, the game gives you a wide range of tools, many with overlapping functions, and it's up to you to learn how to use at least a modest share of them to get the job done. Most tasks can be done in more than one way, such as getting past a pesky Xenon war fleet with overwhelming firepower of your own, or by racing around it in a fast scout (possibly with a Navigational Satellite) so you can drop that and jump your big ships into the sector later. After several years of frequent play, I still haven't "mastered" more than a tiny fraction of the tools, although I'm familiar enough with most to "get by" with them.

The balance of trade versus combat is flexible, and the game tracks your progress in each of them (and sets the difficulty level) independently. Probably the biggest difference between Rebirth and X3 is that in the earlier games, you can fly almost ANY ship, from small M5 scouts and light TS (transport, small) freighters, through heavy M8 torpedo bombers and M6 Corvettes (the size of the "Skunk"), to large M1 and M2 class capitals (up to M0 class in AP) and TL class station-building freighters. The tactics, handling characteristics, and useable equipment for each class can be widely different from one to the other. Ultimately, you end up flying what you prefer most of the time, and occasionally switching to other ships for specific situations.

[ Edit - As for TC or AP, the one complaint about AP is that the plots are too short. There's a mod to add most or all of the TC plots to AP, which gives you closer to a "best of both worlds" game, although I still haven't played AP. ]

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 18. May 16, 15:46

This second question (ie. TC or AP?) is relatively easy: if you want to sink your teeth into some lengthy plot-lines, then go with TC (and then later, you can go on to AP.) If, however, plots aren't that much of a priority for you, then I highly recommend AP: as mentioned by others, AP offers some "quality of life" improvements, and also an even wider variety of ships and ship types/subtypes; also, some faction inventory gaps are filled in (Terrans were missing TMs, for one thing, and Boron lacked M8 in TC). AP also adds a couple of micro- and macro-mechanics, and generally smooths out most of the few remaining rough edges. It has much shorter plots, though still enough to keep you entertained in that manner for some time, and you get access to vital things like the X-Hub and the personal Headquarters MUCH sooner, opening up a "mature-level" game much earlier.

Triaxx2 · Post by **Triaxx2** » Wed, 18. May 16, 18:00

One thing to remember: If you play AP, stay away from the Stock Market until you're flying a Frigate you bought/boarded. That system is too easily exploited for it's own good. When the game came out, we had a spate of new players, who did: This game is hard>This stock exchange is an easy way to earn money>I bought a destroyer.>I don't know how to fly a Destroyer.>This ship sucks.>This game sucks.>I quit.

Personally I like TC. AP's boosted hulls make most fights take a little longer but the race response forces and the fact that they really, really like M7M's means if they get involved it's a very short fight.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Wed, 18. May 16, 18:57

+1 to Triaxx2 - very good point. After I started playing AP, I obviously discovered the stock exchange, and soon after how easy it is to abuse. I kept adding restrictions to my use of it until they added up to... not using the SE at all.

"This game is hard>This stock exchange is an easy way to earn money>I bought a destroyer.>I don't know how to fly a Destroyer.>This ship sucks.>This game sucks.>I quit."

I've seen similar in MMORPGs: new players in too much of a hurry to play "at the top", so they do whatever they can to power-level, get mentors to rush them through the levelling process - then find themselves at max-level without a clue as to how to actually play - and then quit.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Wed, 18. May 16, 19:36

Having just started AP after years playing TC, I have this to say about the stock markets.

I will cheerfully manipulate stock markets, as long as it is within the normal path of play.

For example: I have always set up trade networks. One way that I have set them up in the past and undoubtedly will in the future involves producing (and gathering from NPC suppliers) in one region. Say cahoonas in Argon Prime. I distribute the cahoonas locally at average to make sure that any NPC that buys them has nowhere to sell and is stuck with flying away, generally through pirate space. This drives the price at bakeries down to minimum. My network dumps the excess cahoonas into a Mammoth.

At the same time, I will do everything I can to suppress production of cahoonas in the Aladana Hill region, and make sure that whatever production I cannot stop I buy up. In that region I set up a distribution network selling cahoonas at near maximum price out of another Mammoth. In TC I would connect the two Mammoths with an automated Elephant.

In AP I can already see that I will not automate that Elephant. I'll let the Aladana Hill system run totally dry, sell my cahoona shares, then manually fill that Mammoth and buy the shares back, holding them until it runs dry again. Being able to manipulate commodity prices is what cornering a market is all about, and I would consider that an indication of success on the goal and the extra profits a well earned reward.

To load up a ship and fly it about to demonstrate "yep, this is an exploit" is just a waste of a good game, as has already been noted. But to not use the stock markets at all just because the implementation of them can be exploited seems extreme.

Triaxx2 · Post by **Triaxx2** » Thu, 19. May 16, 12:33

I can totally see your point, but the Stock Exchange is just numbers to play with. If I wanted to play Spreadsheet: The Game, I'd play EVE. But manually setting up trade routes, and moving goods and commodities? That's FUN. The threat of pirates, needing fleets of ships to fly around and defend my traders, or crush those who dared destroy them? That's fun.

For me the Stock Exchange is about what does this sector need. Cahoona shares are expensive? Bring in a TL full until the price plummets. It's all about screwing over anyone trying to make money on it. If the game were competitive, I'd be busy trying to make sure you never earned a single credit on the SE.

Timsup2nothin · Post by **Timsup2nothin** » Thu, 19. May 16, 16:25

Triaxx2 wrote:I can totally see your point, but the Stock Exchange is just numbers to play with. If I wanted to play Spreadsheet: The Game, I'd play EVE. But manually setting up trade routes, and moving goods and commodities? That's FUN. The threat of pirates, needing fleets of ships to fly around and defend my traders, or crush those who dared destroy them? That's fun.

For me the Stock Exchange is about what does this sector need. Cahoona shares are expensive? Bring in a TL full until the price plummets. It's all about screwing over anyone trying to make money on it. If the game were competitive, I'd be busy trying to make sure you never earned a single credit on the SE.

Crushing the NPC traders and forcing them to slink off to the depths of Split space has always given me great satisfaction.

Triaxx2 · Post by **Triaxx2** » Thu, 19. May 16, 16:39

Split say quit it! Can't kill them fast enough!

This is the kind of fun TC/AP inspires. So many characters to create, So many ways to play. So yes, it's worth the initial time investment.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Thu, 19. May 16, 18:05

Triaxx2 wrote:This is the kind of fun TC/AP inspires. So many characters to create, So many ways to play. So yes, it's worth the initial time investment.

+1
Hell, make that +1000!

Blightedmythos · Post by **Blightedmythos** » Sat, 21. May 16, 01:27

Lastly, the graphics while great for their time, leave a lot to be desired at this stage in it's life. Are there any good texture or graphic mods? Any must have mods in general? Thanks again!

Sirrobert · Post by **Sirrobert** » Sat, 21. May 16, 01:29

Blightedmythos wrote:Lastly, the graphics while great for their time, leave a lot to be desired at this stage in it's life. Are there any good texture or graphic mods? Any must have mods in general? Thanks again!

IEX makes the sectors look really good
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=312645

I don't think it looks that bad though