the frailty of station NPC population(s) and smalltalk take-2

[donzi]

Playing vanilla I have become a smalltalk robot, fortunanty I don't have any ailment that makes doing it impossible.

First, I think it's a clever mini-game to facilitate the whole NPC/hireling skills system. Although it seems that the skills system in vanilla is not fully useful, it is a nice groundwork for modding in uses for skills like morale, etc. Also, the gifts system is a nice touch and is a huge time saver if just wanting to grab the best captain on a station with many of them.

On factions which I have <30 rep (all but cantaran) I just go ahead and smalltalk all potential hirelings except when in a hurry for one reason or another.

Some of the issues though which if 'fixed' or modified could help the established groundwork:

- multi station systems can respawn NPC population when traveling between stations -- note that both ARE in the zone proper, which is named. This shouldn't happen IMO. I know there are some problem zones which have stations on zone fringes and/or have forced too much into a named zone for it to work NPC population well. This is a particular problem when trying to reveal skills of NPC spread between stations in the zone... only to find that the ones on the other station have begun to vanish/change.

- at a faction rating of 30 maybe perk the system some.

EG:

? - Allow haze glit or one of the gifts or just cash force the NPC into smalltalk.
? - allow hirelings to be directly assigned to a ship in the same zone (getting around the skunk crew limit)
? - don't spawn NPC with less than 10 stars total

- add text or change color on the flashing NPC comms that can come up when talking to NPC on stations. This is a problem since the dialog and subtitle do not show when dealing with NPC on staions at the time the message comes in. Thus it's not easily determined if the message is about a ship being ripped apart or if it's just account sweeping. Just making the background flashing red for ship dangers would help.

- trickle out uses for the NPC skills as possible. Morale seems to be a perfect fit for the flee system now in place.

- make reasons to give any gift other than paranid jewelry


Overall the system seems like a 'casual' process. The problem is that as an empire grows the QTY of worthwhile NPC needed in haste grows and isn't well suited for a casual system of getting decent workers.

The virtial seminars are fine, I like them but that means zeroing in on an NPC with proper skills (to provide the desired virtual seminar) and waiting for them to speak.

I've stood/ran around crew quarters and other populated areas for more than 15 minutes waiting for them to speak just so I could get the ball rolling. This is extremely aggrevating. I can smalltalk in my sleep, never failing it, and just want to tidy up some old NPC skills with seminars or find a 5-star engineer among the 8 on the present dock for the captured ship outside.

Some rep based (or not) system to allow the player to initiate smalltalk would be a nice addition. I don't much care, 100M credits, okay. Whatever. While that would be a bit over the top IMO, at times I'd though it'd have been a fair trade.

I probably have forgot some of the things I'd thought about this topic, but the main thing is that I think it would be nice if vanilla could accomplish a 'casual' to 'mature empire' transition.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I personally think you should just be able to talk to NPCs

You should have the opportunity to hire them as a station representative.

So talk to NPC give them cash, or gift to give you station updates.

If you have no cash or gifts then use small talk mini-game to get it free.

For show skills again give them cash or gift or play a mini-game.

To find the best employee/s in the zone give them cash or gift or play mini-game.

Have alternatives let the player decide which method they want to use.

I also think you should be able to employ a station representative on any NP stations, a representative who keeps track of all trades done at that station on your behalf. So that as you trade more the better the discounts and information you get from a station. Maybe even becoming a preferred buyer or supplier.

[RAVEN.myst]

Yes, I also think that the player ought to be able to initiate a "smalltalk" session - it's absurd that Ren Otani, supposedly capable, outgoing hero, isn't able to break the ice! Maybe that's why he's single - he's too scared to ever approach a girl, waits for her to make the first move.

Some time ago, elsewhere on this forum I read some other user making a very good point: a game mechanic that forces the player to wait for no good reason, is detrimental to the game experience (I'm paraphrasing here.)

[Lander1979]

After countless new game starts during beta play testing, and sinking over 2000 hours into playing Rebirth in general, I have found a few sanity-preserving mods that make life a lot more convenient.

*100% Station Info Unlocks- just fly up to a docking port or I point and the station scans down to 100 % (or close to- doesn't scan secure modules, you will need a trojan or beholder drone for that). Action is same as scanning an unprotected node. Saves me from playing hide and seek with every I point on every station in game.

*Trade Agents Forever (TAF)- Lets me comm a trader from space and ask for trade offer updates, Costs 80k, and worth every penny, as it saves me from having to dock and then wait 15 minutes for a mini-game.

* Mini-Game Hack- For plot missions like scanning and hacking, this makes it possible for me to pass a mini-game where I was not able to due to erratic/low fps and control lag/delay. Also useful for those of us with poor reflex action or nerve injuries.

These mods can be found in the scripts and modding forum, and on the Steam Workshop.

[Santi]

In my opinion small talk is used for too many things and as other said, it should be possible to be initiated by the player.

NPC skills and hiring should be on its own, and skills should be available to see from the first moment, hired NPC should have a salary, instead of a one off payment, coupled with a progression system similar to that of the Marine Officer. Will leave seminars as loot.

That will pretty much leave Trade Agents and Discounts for small talk that I think is reasonable, especially if you get better deals due to relations bonuses. And even so I will get an alternative mode to implement Trade Agents on top.

[RAVEN.myst]

In my opinion small talk is used for too many things and as other said, it should be possible to be initiated by the player.

NPC skills and hiring should be on its own, and skills should be available to see from the first moment, hired NPC should have a salary, instead of a one off payment, coupled with a progression system similar to that of the Marine Officer. Will leave seminars as loot.

That will pretty much leave Trade Agents and Discounts for small talk that I think is reasonable, especially if you get better deals due to relations bonuses. And even so I will get an alternative mode to implement Trade Agents on top.

I agree 100%. As far as salaries go, I'm for that, too - much like UTs, CAGs and CLSs in the "past" ("present" for some, like me ) - this one-off payment makes it seem like buying property/equipment, rather than *hiring*. Also VERY much in favour of staff/crew improving their skills by using them (again, like UTs, CAGs, etc), with a proportional increase in their salaries as level of expertise increases. It is so ridiculously easy to make money in Rebirth, that I think paying salaries to all the crews would not even be noticeable (well, as long as the payroll doesn't intrude with a message every time, like station profit transfers do! lol)

[pref]

I think smalltalk is a placeholder, ES had no time to really utilize the FP aspect as that part must have been finished close to release date.
At least i perceive it like that - the whole thing was designed for the first few hours of playtime.
Hope with the next game they can afford to spend more time on it and get some creative ideas.

[RAVEN.myst]

I think smalltalk is a placeholder, ES had no time to really utilize the FP aspect as that part must have been finished close to release date.
At least i perceive it like that - the whole thing was designed for the first few hours of playtime.

You're probably right. Perhaps the strongest evidence for that may be the fact that the same mini-game is used for smalltalk and hacking - rather different activities.

[donzi]

However, I got to admit the hacking did get easier to do because of smalltalk. Could be it's (same minigame) intentional too?

My early use of hacking continued to be about 99% failure. I now can hover among the top 50% somewhat predictably.

My biggest problem is getting the flippin drone in place. That thing flies like a brick.


BTW: I didn't see any comment on this:

? - allow hirelings to be directly assigned to a ship in the same zone (getting around the skunk crew limit)

Seems good, no? ..even if it was only for 30 rep or some other payoff to the faction, etc.

[RAVEN.myst]

I would take that a lot farther and say that we need a ship class that can hold and transport passengers (hell, this has ALWAYS been a hallmark mission type in previous Xs!), and to be able to assign crew to any ship or station remotely. This bollocks of personally conducting every interview, and then actually DEPOSITING a new employee at their place of work... don't these people know how to get around?? What sorts of over-specialised incompetents are we hiring, anyway?

[donzi]

Hehe, well that would be a neat new mini-game.

you have the option to pay for delivery of your new employee for ??????? credits, it may take a while for the xs compact craft to get there, if at all. If you'd like to buy insurance on their life (like wal-mart does to the employees) then we offer that service too, for even more ??????? credits. You do have the option though, if you'd like to escort the compact craft to its' destination as self insurance.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

What XR is really missing is a good quality train or coach service to ferry people around.

[donzi]

I think that would be the mass traffic.

It'll never surrender and keep moving along everywhere. Kill all you like and they won't be stopped.. Totally fearless bunch too!

[pref]

I just still dont get what low level HR manager duties have to do with a space sim..

I could imagine quite a few optional minigames that involve space and sim - none of them is even remotely related to hr resources.
Ofc good ideas don't mean much without a decent amount of playtest. With smalltalk clearly noone considered how it plays out mid term.

[donzi]

"HR" meaning.. human resources?

Agreed on the smalltalk, NPC staffing, etc missing mid/late game enjoyment consideration.

I do think it works kind of well to draw the player into the universe early on. I also do like the FPS side of XR and the added possibilities it brought with it.

The required dosages of all though does need adjustment as time goes on, no doubt.. and they did respond to that with hiring from space and now buying ships from remote places (and space) among other things probably that I can't recall.

Even at late plot game with some 25 stations and lots of ships etc, I'd not mind so much being on a station to manage things if it weren't for the reduction of the info displays to the one upper right screen... same applies for sitting in one of my cap ships -- feel the need to get off it so that I can see both displays and relax some of the cueueing that happens while in the property or map window when on ship or station docks.

Seems that with some of the ideas I've mentioned or as inspiration, the system as it is could be adjusted for better mid-late game fun without reinventing the thing.

..rather just (further) implementing some of what's there, like reasons for the variety of gifts, multiple staff with wultiple skills, etc.

Loosening these things up in vanilla as the plot and/or empire grows I think would be good. Perhaps even just a game start which begins with any/all possible (proposed) mid-late game traits already enabled.

[pref]

I'd be much more involved if FP was about more lore, getting access to bonus goodies by venturing into more hidden/npc 'personality' dependent parts of a conversation tree.
At least a few plot characters with optional todos and some proper background/personality and coherent conversations.

The HR related things should be on UI side, or handled through a high level manager via a much more automated logic. It shouldn't be based on a clicktowin thing, but cost effectiveness considering income or efficiency versus hire, wage and train costs.
The main advantage of this whole system are the employee skill attributes, and their effect on your game. Has nothing to do with first person encounters, ES forced a process here into FP just to have some FP content.

[RAVEN.myst]

Hmm, the last couple of posts gave me an idea: what about a "placement/employment agent" on stations, much like the trade agent (but preferably without having to "chat" for it - just pay a fee). It could work maybe something like this: it provides a list of available hirelings at its station. For a fee, it can get you the skill stats (with an "interview all" option to pay to reveal ALL candidates' skills). Placement agent will also deliver the new staff member to its post (station or ship, perhaps restricted to same zone or sector.) This may incur an additional fee, too - I don't care, I'd rather pay double for a hireling in the mid- to late-game, than schlepp over to do all the menial "HR stuff" myself.

This is a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head concept - there may well be better solutions.

EDIT: This opens a new possibility, too - a new hireling type, namely such an HR manager - you would need to hire these to handle candidates on your own stations (as I believe this work would be well outside the purview of the station manager.) (Ironic: expand the HR aspect in order to reduce it!)

[donzi]

I think smalltalk is a placeholder, <snip>

I may not quite grasp what you mean, but from the perspective I have, it seems smalltalk is overall, when considering all that it touches, more than a 'placeholder'.

Just the voice acting alone makes me think smalltalk (overall) was required operational to have a game. The actual whack-a-mole type challange I sort of think was intended too.

The actual 'action' part (click the guage/whack-a-mole) actually is, in itself pretty suitable for a mini-game IMO. Fast, simple and if it wasn't for the dialog exchange each time, it could be a very quick start to finish.

I can think of many mini-games from other titles that I would NOT want in place of the present mini-game. Kudos too in that it can be modded so that it's not a showstopper/game breaker for people who it's impossible to win (or those who just want to skip it).

..and, maybe I am talking out my arse again, but I am thinking it's not a QTE (quicktime event) -- thank god and egosoft for that.

[martimus]

My problem with the minigame is more the fact you have to do it for basic things that you need to do hundreds of times, like getting resumes (which makes no sense), or getting trade agents. The other benefits don't bother me so much, as they are truly bonuses that help but aren't nearly so fundamental to playing the game. If trade agents and resume collection did not require a mini game, I doubt anyone would have a problem with the game.

[donzi]

Agreed, actually.

In my pior posts I was (trying) pondering ways ES could transition early -> mid -> late game so that the issues people have are handled in ways which are more about the assumed goal(s) they had for it all, instead of just throw it out, it sucks commentary.

I'd rather take a stab at moving it along than suddenly having something replace what is already there, potentially being a 1-step forward and 2-steps back situation.