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mrbadger
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Post by mrbadger » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 13:45

Santi wrote:Knowing Trump, he will only pop to Britain once Brexit is done to do a commercial deal.
Very possibly. Won't change his reception when he gets here. Unless his entire visit has no public appearances. That would be rather unusual for a state visit.
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Post by kohlrak » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 15:17

mrbadger wrote:
Santi wrote:Knowing Trump, he will only pop to Britain once Brexit is done to do a commercial deal.
Very possibly. Won't change his reception when he gets here. Unless his entire visit has no public appearances. That would be rather unusual for a state visit.
If this were to be so, why would anyone care. Anyone who hates him would want nothing more, correct? And the people that like him just want him to do what he says he'll do, nothing more, right? If all he did was to go to strike a deal, nothing more, that'd be precisely what both his haters and his fans want of him, no?

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Post by Skism » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 15:44

mrbadger wrote:
Santi wrote:Knowing Trump, he will only pop to Britain once Brexit is done to do a commercial deal.
Very possibly. Won't change his reception when he gets here. Unless his entire visit has no public appearances. That would be rather unusual for a state visit.
If Trump comes to Britain he will have a very good reception outside of London.

There are many people and places who would welcome him with open arms. ;)
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."

-Thomas Paine-

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 17:46

Skism wrote:If Trump comes to Britain he will have a very good reception outside of London.

There are many people and places who would welcome him with open arms. ;)
I dunno about that, my parents home (and that of my childhood) is in about the most Tory, "I'm not racist but . . . ", brexiteering and bunting place imaginable. And Trump is a bit much even for them.
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Post by mrbadger » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 17:48

no-one has to hate him. They just have to not like him very much to give him a bad time when he visits.

We don't have much to 'hate' him for, hate is a very strong emotion. I would question the reasoning behind anyone in the UK 'hating' him.

Dislike though, yup, lots of reason for that, he's a racist thug leading a country that has in a significant quantity of influence over ours.

Although it seems that said influence is declining fast under his watch.
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Post by BugMeister » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 17:53

- we'd stay away in droves.. :lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Post by Ketraar » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 18:10

BugMeister wrote:- we'd stay away in droves.. :lol:
Which in Trump's case is more effective than to protest, if anything he cant handle small things, so empty streets at reception or low public turnouts would tingle his inferiority complex to over 9000 and that is always a treat.

MFG

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Post by mrbadger » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 19:12

I wouldn't even consider attending a Trump event.
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Post by Observe » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 20:29

Skism wrote:There are many people and places who would welcome him with open arms
Most of his supporters live in rural areas of the country, so it's expected he isn't popular in the cities.

I happen to live in a "redneck" area of the U.S. One thing I noticed during the campaign, is our direct neighbors had a Trump sign in their yard - until the pussy incident. The next morning, they had taken down their sign.

There were a lot of conservatives who looked to Trump as a balance against the Obama years, but many of them can't stomach his Vileness any more than liberals can.

These are the decent Republicans who are interested in a conservative agenda, but still have enough moral backbone to know they don't want their children growing up like Trump. I suspect that many of the remaining Trump supporters are, as Hillary put it "deplorables" who are every bit as despicable as their hero.

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Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 21:55

Ketraar wrote: Which in Trump's case is more effective than to protest, if anything he cant handle small things, so empty streets at reception or low public turnouts would tingle his inferiority complex to over 9000 and that is always a treat.
I don't think it would. Remember his inauguration, where he believed he had the biggest crowd of all time despite there being many fewer people than were at Obama's? He'll just see people who aren't there or something like that.

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Post by Ketraar » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 22:13

I'm aware of his delusion and the ways he'd try to spin it, but I was more in for my own entertainment tbh. Watching how they spiral into their madness trying to convince everyone else the earth is flat is kinda funny. :D

MFG

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Post by Santi » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 00:17

We need to be realistic here, Trump only has to achieve a few of the targets that he set up in his electoral campaign to be reelected.

- Hard stance about immigration, check, wall is pending.
- Improve security by banning immigration from muslim countries, check, pending judicial procedures.
- Cut red tape (legislation) for companies, check.
- Bringing down Obamacare, check, in reality it is no check, but you can blame congress for the failure, so check.
- America first, check.
- Getting out of bad international deals, check.
- Massive tax cut that will put over a trillion dollars into peoples and companies pockets, check.
- Increase military expending, check.
- Increasing wages, as unemployment is an all time low, check (so far).

So far Trump support base is not wavering, they are fully behind him, if he manages to get the necessary funding for the next big item in his campaign promises, infrastructure, he is secured a second term.
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Post by Ketraar » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 01:07

What you are not counting on is that (hopefully) all the OTHER people will not be thinking its a done deal and actually get their bastu to the booth. Yes Trump base/fans/whatever might think they got what they voted for (I'd argue they got a lot of smoke and mirrors but thats not really relevant), but the rest of the sleeping beauty will be much more active. One good indication might be how these mid-term elections turn out (though I dont think its the same).

So yes all the Trump voter might still be voting Trump 20/20 (IF Trump runs, which I doubt, but again different debate), but I think many people that stayed at home will make sure this lunatic and his gang of dishonest crooks, wont be voted in again.

MFG

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PS.: This presumes its not all just gone up in fire and fury, by then. :-)

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Post by Santi » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 01:41

As you, I hope that participation goes up and they can turn the tide while addressing most people's concerns. It is strange, as the way politics work in Europe, you have the heads of the different parties leading the opposition and those are normally the future candidates for presidency.

I find it hard to understand, or I fail to see who in the Democrats is leading the charge against Trump policies, by what I read in the press it is mostly some cities and the judiciary opposing him.

Another issue is if people of a more liberal nature is willing to vote for someone that is bent on making the radical changes needed it to address current people issues. Take Corbyn in the UK as an example, he does have a pretty good program with some really challenging items. But for some reason (fear, distrust, lack of confidence or simply afraid to big changes) people is not voting him or even worst, is not bothering to turn up at polling stations.

I am not sure that if another candidate be it Republican or Democrat doing the right thing like promising to normalise the situation of the 11 million illegal immigrants and giving them the green card will get much support to become president by the USA population.
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Post by Ketraar » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 02:11

Yes elections are indeed complex and the root of many if not all issues are intertwined and require nuance. Dont think that the revolutionary (deep changes) is the right path tbh, more often then not revolutions bring great change at very high cost. Sure they may result in mid to long term solutions, as a "clean slate" provides more and broader options.

I think there are two fundamental paradigms that needed for subtle but steady change to be induced in modern societies.

1. Fear. People need not be afraid as much. Fear of losing things that hold no real value, fear of the unknown, fear of inevitability. Do not fear things you cant neither control or understand, its a waste of energy better spent fixing things or bettering your or other peoples live.

2. Critical thinking. More then formal education people need to start using their brains to think. Read stuff from multiple sources, engage in discourse with people challenging your views and keep an open mind about the fact that anything you know might just be wrong.

If I may sneak in a 3rd suggestion, empathy. Most other people are just like you and I, we all have similar struggles and are as fragile as any the next person.

MFG

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Post by Santi » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 03:05

I was not really referring to revolutions per se, but as we say in Spain "grabbing the bull by the horns" and deal with those issues that has been ignored because they present a lose or lose situation or as just difficult to solve without making many people upset.

As we talked before and a clear example of it, Merkel decision to take in the 500k immigrants. If she didn't take them she will lose with her own electorate, if she take them as she did, she will lose with the opposition and fuel far right or populism. She did the right thing, even if it cost her, but only because she did not have other choice really.

Another issue is austerity, while governments are happy to cut in education, culture, armed forces etc. They are not willing to cut their own perks and benefits or the benefits that their parties get that amount to hundred upon hundred of millions. Or the ONU/EU reforms that are badly needed, or act decisively when needed.

I find that the majority of burocratas in charge of countries (USA/Europe), I find it hard to call them leaders, are happy to coast and just make sure they keep in power even if that means making unsavoury alliances and worry little to actually solve problems.

I agree with critical thinking but we are not there yet and there are a majority that do not have the chance to do so because their economic circumstances. One of the major consequences of austerity is the failure to lift people to the middle class. Xenophobia will be a lot lower right now if middle class hasn't been pummelled down the way it has been.

Empathy as fear is related to my points above, if you have a good job, savings in the bank, good education, mortgage paid etc, it is easier not to feel fear and to be more empathic.

If you are unemployed, you are behind in your mortgage payments, had basic education, and next door moves a family from Syria where the government is paying for accomodation, food allowance, english classes, a care support worker and a translator to help them out.
You may become a little upset about it. You shouldn't because they had it worse than you, but the average person will feel resentment about it.

It is that resentment that is fueling people to choose someone like Trump, so in my opinion we should be tapping into that resentment too with hopefully better and more clever solutions.

Edit:
And that is good night from me too as much as I am enjoying the discussion, really need to go to sleep.
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Post by Observe » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 03:36

Ketraar wrote:1. Fear. People need not be afraid as much. Fear of losing things that hold no real value, fear of the unknown, fear of inevitability. Do not fear things you cant neither control or understand, its a waste of energy better spent fixing things or bettering your or other peoples live.

2. Critical thinking. More then formal education people need to start using their brains to think. Read stuff from multiple sources, engage in discourse with people challenging your views and keep an open mind about the fact that anything you know might just be wrong.

If I may sneak in a 3rd suggestion, empathy. Most other people are just like you and I, we all have similar struggles and are as fragile as any the next person.
Well put ^^

1. Uncertainty always breeds fear. It's a tough one to rid ourselves of, because rational thinking is usually unable to provide the cure.

2. Keeping an open mind, almost runs counter to the nature of the mind. But yes, certainly a goal.

3. For our own sake, we need empathy toward Trump as much as he needs it from us. This of course, does not excuse his behavior.

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Post by Ketraar » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 11:48

Santi wrote:Empathy as fear is related to my points above, if you have a good job, savings in the bank, good education, mortgage paid etc, it is easier not to feel fear and to be more empathic.
Here is where I disagree with you strongly. This notion that its OK to change your moral stance depending on how well you are off, is called corruption. The right thing to do does not change if you are rich or poor, have a job or not, it will not change. Survival is an instinct and has nothing to do with morality, morality exists to COUNTER our instincts, we do the right thing DESPITE it not being of (material? other?) benefit to us.

In RL many people ask me how I can manage to be a "good person" and my answer is always that I'm really not. Going through life "being a good person" is a lot of work, every day I struggle to not just give up or give in, life would be so much easier. So everyone needs to have a good look in the mirror and not be ashamed of what they see in it, this will obviously be different for everyone.
3. For our own sake, we need empathy toward Trump as much as he needs it from us. This of course, does not excuse his behavior.
Indeed, but as you say, empathy will not exclude point 2 of critical thinking and calling people out on their BS. I think calling people out on their BS is a form of empathy imho, since if we didnt care we would just ignore it. (?)

MFG

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Post by Bishop149 » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 11:56

Santi wrote:So far Trump support base is not wavering, they are fully behind him, if he manages to get the necessary funding for the next big item in his campaign promises, infrastructure, he is secured a second term.
I get this, between his hot air, propaganda and more limited actual achievements I can see how his base might be satisfied.
Why then are his approval ratings so low? A bias in their collection? Why was this bias (if correlated with party affiliation) not reflected in polls relating to other presidents?
Ketraar wrote:Here is where I disagree with you strongly. This notion that its OK to change your moral stance depending on how well you are off, is called corruption.
As do I, but mostly for a different reason.
The more you have the more you fear to lose and the more power you often have to "defend" it from perceived attacks. Also the more attached to the status quo you will become, after all you did pretty well out of it.
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Post by kohlrak » Tue, 16. Jan 18, 15:23

Bishop149 wrote:
Santi wrote:So far Trump support base is not wavering, they are fully behind him, if he manages to get the necessary funding for the next big item in his campaign promises, infrastructure, he is secured a second term.
I get this, between his hot air, propaganda and more limited actual achievements I can see how his base might be satisfied.
Why then are his approval ratings so low? A bias in their collection? Why was this bias (if correlated with party affiliation) not reflected in polls relating to other presidents?
Quote of the day.

That said, remember, the polls said he wouldn't win the election by a long shot. Without going so far as to cite a study, I would go as far as to say that some polls are known to play numbers games to present pictures. This is OK, though, as middle-ground people don't read the polls, so it could easily give my opponents a false sense of security that their opinions are more popular than they really are. Now, to get away from twitter, not that that leak came out--oh wait, I never used it to begin with. Lovely how some people love to play with numbers and still manage to fail.

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