UI - the face of game (hopes for 4.5)

[CommanderTM]

Yeah... its like websites. If it is uncomfortable to use, not pretty to look at, confusing and you have to make 5 clicks to do something simple... then people just wont come back. If they do, they really need the function the site is offering.

Thats like Rebirth right now. UI is tolerated by people who really like the the game that is built under it.

Actually... if you look at Egosoft website, they clearly have not put a lot of effort into it, same as the UI of the game. It functions and that is enough for them. I may be a little biased on that because i actually do not like the "retro-futuristic-techno-style" of the website and Rebirths UI. I would rather look at something clean and modern-futuristic.

I prefere something like this
https://d13yacurqjgara.cloudfront.net/u ... gon-ui.png
If Rebirths UI was this style. I would dream of it at night... lol.

But i know its matter of taste so i never said anything about Rebirths UI style. Functionality is what is important...

[reanor]

They improved the fonts some and even more in 4.0. Let's hope when HoL is out, we will all be enjoying the game. Interface, unfortunately, will probably stay the same with its bunch of levels and sub levels we have to click.

What I honestly want to see, is little icons that we have to click, instead of digging our way down to the command we need on 4th level of dial sub menus. For example, go to Shift P, or whatever to get the main interface open with stations ships etc. Press the COMM button to get in touch with the ship captain, but instead of the dial with multiple levels down of options, have all the options open on one bar, with appropriate icons and size.

Say "assign supervisor" can actually look like a two ships chasing each other, since it's more of an escort option than anything etc etc.

They still keep legacy dial sub menus for many game elements in 3.60 similar to what the game had many years ago when first Xs came out. They give you an option to toggle legacy menus on and off, but even if toggled off, many core game elements still use this ugly old blue dial. That needs to change. Gives a 'new game' old taste.

My main grudge is digging down to the option I need through many pointless clicks. It has to change...

[CommanderTM]

An example of PC exclusive UI:

http://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/pu ... s_list.jpg

{oversized embedded image replaced by link, see forum rules - CBJ}

Collection of them can be found here:
https://www.google.ee/search?q=stellari ... BigB&dpr=1

Looking Forward to play it. This game looks awesome... And i hope Egosoft devs will take some ideas from this to their next game!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shoiYDp7EEA

EDIT:
Sorry about big image CBJ but im glad that you saw this thread Hope you will take some of it into consideration!

[Kaldo]

I completely agree! I'd pay for a UI/QoL patch, and it would improve the game more than any content update. They are even on the right track, I started playing with HoL again and noticed this window - http://i.imgur.com/e4XKQEH.jpg . It's like the old order window from X3! The only problem is, it's so complicated to navigate to it. You need to Enter-2-2 for property window, select the ship, details, select the captain, details, new order (IIRC).

It should be instead the default option when initiating comms with the ship! Meaning it would be accessible by opening the context menu on a ship in space, and it would be instanly accessible through a shortcut in the property window. We could still individually comm all crew members by going to ship details and then selecting them, and this would lets us bypass the circular dialogue trees. It's even easier to mod new stuff into it since it's a simple vertical list!

Additional stuff that could be shown in it is:
- sell wares, buy wares - which would instantly open the respective trade offer window with that ship selected
- retreat from combat
- target subsystems
- follow target
- assign new superior

Basically, replace the dialogue wheel with the list based order menu, at least when it comes to ship management - leave it for other stuff. It's better for both KB+M and gamepad users. Oh and also, definitely make the font a bit smaller, and the window a bit bigger... There's too much wasted space, info could be a bit more condensed

[CommanderTM]

I agree... it would be nice first comm window.

You could also add more info at the right. Make the command window third of the screen and 2 thirds could be:
* some ship details, hull, shields, current order
* queued trade orders
* ships upkeep missions
* maybe even crew with relative stars

You could fit it all into the window...

How awesome would that be!

[Saquavin]

You have an awesome photoshoped property menu here : http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=385026

I still think it's the way to go, and could be integrated really fast by DEVS.

[RAVEN.myst]

I agree... it would be nice first comm window.

You could also add more info at the right. Make the command window third of the screen and 2 thirds could be:
* some ship details, hull, shields, current order
* queued trade orders
* ships upkeep missions
* maybe even crew with relative stars

You could fit it all into the window...

How awesome would that be!

Indeed

[Ezarkal]

You have an awesome photoshoped property menu here : http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=385026

I still think it's the way to go, and could be integrated really fast by DEVS.

I saw that a while ago. It's probably the best suggestion I've seen so far.
Basically
-Make the fonts smaller in order to pack up more relevant info in the main windows to avoid having to do 3-4 more clicks to get said info.
-Break down the linear aspect of some menus (like the trade window) by adding side windows with more relevant info and
-Add more relevant shortcuts that will allow to avoid going through 2-3 menues.

(Seriously, having to go through 2 additional windows from the trade window to cancel queued trips quickly becomes a royal pain in the ass... and it's not the worst one of them).


Like all of you, I never understood why ES chose to sacrifice menu simplicity over controller access.
1- It's now hard as hell to browse through with both mouse/keyboard AND controller
2- What's the big challenge in dropping the controller for menu navigation? I've been a controller user until very recently (long live the joysticks), and as soon as I opened the menu, I switched to mouse/keyboard anyway. It's not something either hard or tedious to do... I basically play while holding my controller over my M&K anyway. Sure, it's fun to be able to do simple menu tasks with the controller, but that should be simple to implement. Extensive menu navigation is so easier to do with mouse and hotkeys that soon become irrelevant one way or the other.

[donzi]

Yeah... its like websites.
..
Rebirths UI. I would rather look at something clean and modern-futuristic.
..
I prefere something like this
<snip>

It appears that the trend of migrating websites into phone/small screen friendly appeals more to you.

I could see something like the example image, for a 3rd party app such as I used to use to monitor EVE data on my phone, but not thrilling me for a PC game UI.

Looks lovely on a small screen for limited info but more often than not, these 'optimized' websites IMO are very poor for large screens. The new paypal personal design for example.

..I'm more the bean counter type and like a lot of related data organized in classic spreadsheet style as opposed to page forward/back operation that seems to fit better for phones/small screens.

As you mentioned, it is certainly a matter of preference.

The swiss army knife UI or transitionsal websites IMO usually fall into the 'it sucks' or 'bearable out of necessity' design. Then again, I am old school and my first experience with computers was breadboards and ancient cpus. I do try and accomidate the generations which first and main exposure to computer games was 2600/sega/xbox, etc or phone apps.

I'd kind of think a totally KB/mouse/joystick centric UI -plus- a totally console controller centric UI which the user can select (one or the other) would offer the best possibilities for both without making the sort of hybrid mash-up which suffers in trying to satisfy multiple/different input methods.

..but maybe that is what ES has partly worked for?

I admit that I've not tried XR with a controller and do not use the sidebar style since I tend to set everything so that it appears to jibe well with my KB (not spelling.. ) proficientcy.

It's been a while since I played EVE but that was something that AFAIK just couldn't be played without keyboard/mouse and hence the UI was not all chewed up trying to bother with controller support.

If it did work with controller well, then it surly would be worth study by UI responsible devs at egosoft since the EVE UI never wasted much space, was useful for large resolutions and presented huge data, pretty well too.

You have an awesome photoshoped property menu here : <snip>

I still think it's the way to go, and could be integrated really fast by DEVS.

That is nice. Much closer to what I'd like to see. One problem that seems to be with the XR 'engine' though, dynamic realtime data isn't it's best skill. The queueing is so obvious at times I kind of wonder if XR could even muster the strength without crashing to display all that info in realtime (which would make the most sense).

-Make the fonts smaller in order to pack up more relevant info in the main windows to avoid having to do 3-4 more clicks to get said info.

I personally avoid clicking at all within the UI since/if the KB can handle everything I don't need to move from it to the mouse.

Like all of you, I never understood why ES chose to sacrifice menu simplicity over controller access.

I think there is some obviousness to why. The console market is huge and ES has kind of been leaning towards that since X3:R and XR being from scratch offered the oppurtunity to escalate the UI more towards that market. It's a slippery slope though. If they can hit a sweet spot and reasonably satisfy console players and sell more within that market it could be good all the way around in time.

I say this as someone who really hates what consoles have done to the nearly obsolete PC game (developement) industry and only cope with ports since there isn't a great deal of options. More often though I find myself gravitaing towards playing the games like XR which are from developers who still show respect to the PC side of things.

1- It's now hard as hell to browse through with both mouse/keyboard AND controller
2 - <snip>

More power to ya. I can't imagine playing and switching between 3 inputs devices presently. However I really would like to get a joystick to try for dogfights. However, 'mouselook' / steering is SO second nature for me I don't mind just driving on with KB+mouse. Mouselook and old school FPS is so burned into my brain I am a miserable failure trying to play much more than 'platformer' type games with a controller.

Actually, I bought an xbox controller to get though the platformer stuff that batman uses for some of the boss confrontations. lol.

[BigBANGtheory]

But i know its matter of taste so i never said anything about Rebirths UI style. Functionality is what is important...

This is what highlights Egosoft's flaw in UI design.

Functionality and User Experience (UX) are all important, you can't ditch the UX just because it is inconvenient or development time does not permit it. I know we all call for more functionality I'm as guilty as the next person on that front but it has to be delivered together with UX or adjusted for it to get the results everyone craves for.

XR has some good points to its UI, it has some bad and some fairly glaring gaps or limitations. Imho it is delivered as a mash up of ideas and concepts forced together in some unhappy relationship.

Get all the functionality mapped out, look at the gaps then consider the UI design as a whole. Then don't keep it hidden away ffs show the players (even if it is only conceptual) and be prepared to make adjustments.

I also think that having the ability in XR to switch between a keybrd & mouse control mode vs. joystick/gamepad control is a good idea that hasn't fully been realised because the UI tries to harmonise the two far too much.

[RAVEN.myst]

Functionality and User Experience (UX) are all important, you can't ditch the UX just because it is inconvenient or development time does not permit it. I know we all call for more functionality I'm as guilty as the next person on that front but it has to be delivered together with UX or adjusted for it to get the results everyone craves for.

Where UIs are concerned (ie. the man-machine interface), functionality and UX go hand-in-hand - if the interface lacks functionality to do what you want to/think it ought to do, then your experience with it is going to suck. Conversely, the more functional an interface is, the more positive the UX it brings organically and without any effort - after that, a little effort to polish it up, pretty it up, and streamline it, and Bob's your proverbial cross-dressing auntie. (Of course, it's never QUITE as simple as that - but the principle is valid.)

[donzi]

Like all of you, I never understood why ES chose to sacrifice menu simplicity over controller access.

I think there is some obviousness to why. The console <snip>

..read this again and think my misuderstanding got my arse talking again.. nevermind. Seems I was replying to something not said.

[LordMoridin]

Egosoft games have always had bad UI. Though after various interactions, X3:AP wasn't bad.

The plan was for X:Rebirth to be more accessible to people so it is really baffling to me that they managed to make the UI (amongst other things) worse. The UI is the most important thing when it comes to making things accessible. I'm not going to say that UI/UX is easy, but if they had a dedicated UI person things would be much better. Or even an experienced UI guy who does UI stuff sometimes. I'm not even thinking about functionally pointless stuff.

Take the trade offers page. This displays a lot of information and is vital to any trader. It's table/spreadsheet layout it very helpful for that. The main problem with it is that you can't do and filtering/searching. A ware name text box filter would make the trade offers page 10 times more usable. There are many things like that, if someone was dedicated to it, would be no brainers to fix.


I don't really mind the fact that Egosoft are trying to support controllers. I don't think it's just a console thing. X games aren't simply management simulators. People like flying around in space shooting at things. Controllers are good for that.

[RAVEN.myst]

Take the trade offers page. This displays a lot of information and is vital to any trader. It's table/spreadsheet layout it very helpful for that. The main problem with it is that you can't do and filtering/searching. A ware name text box filter would make the trade offers page 10 times more usable.

They did add a filter to it some time ago, it's just not very obvious, tucked away in the... top right, I think? And while I'm not intimately familiar with it, I know that it can at least filter by system name, and even faction name (which is VERY useful if you're trying to bump up your rep with a particular faction.) I'm not sure about filtering by ware name, but you can choose what field to sort by, and you can also filter by cargo category (container, bulk, etc). In fact, this (and the new, similar deal-finder computer) are possibly the only two interface screens that have no obvious gaps (that I can think of, at least.)

But I do agree with you in general - it's paradoxial how, in the effort to make the interface simpler, they've managed to muddle it completely.
The way I see it, the interface is the item that currently requires the most immediate attention, though that "honour" ought to be shared with the combat AI, as the latter could get serious improvements with relatively little effort, so should also get done with priority.

[EventHorizon]

It would be nice if the UI was just consistent, I've been programming for 30 years (damn, I am getting on ) and parts of the UI appear to show a total lack of regard towards OOP (yes, that is a dig at the devs). For example the differences in ship builder menus between capital and small ships. Why do capital builders have that nice icon to click for info, but the small ship builders have an "encyclopaedia" button.

Many of the trade windows also clip important information, with no way to resize the column - it's utter madness!

[RAVEN.myst]

+1, many times over! I could fill a page of forum space (in fact, I probably have - many times over, lol!) regarding these inconsistencies. They make "the product" appear unpolished or even downright unprofessional, and can cause frustration and waste of time (such as by causing duplication of effort through unexpected/unintuitive behaviour - such as in the map interface), right through to potentially very undesirable and irreversible accidents (such as when same functions are not consistently placed within menus across different usage instances - such as "HR" options for different types of hirelings - yes, I'm looking at you, architect!)

[LordMoridin]

Take the trade offers page. This displays a lot of information and is vital to any trader. It's table/spreadsheet layout it very helpful for that. The main problem with it is that you can't do and filtering/searching. A ware name text box filter would make the trade offers page 10 times more usable.

They did add a filter to it some time ago, it's just not very obvious, tucked away in the... top right, I think? And while I'm not intimately familiar with it, I know that it can at least filter by system name, and even faction name (which is VERY useful if you're trying to bump up your rep with a particular faction.) I'm not sure about filtering by ware name, but you can choose what field to sort by, and you can also filter by cargo category (container, bulk, etc). In fact, this (and the new, similar deal-finder computer) are possibly the only two interface screens that have no obvious gaps (that I can think of, at least.)

But I do agree with you in general - it's paradoxial how, in the effort to make the interface simpler, they've managed to muddle it completely.
The way I see it, the interface is the item that currently requires the most immediate attention, though that "honour" ought to be shared with the combat AI, as the latter could get serious improvements with relatively little effort, so should also get done with priority.

I'd take the ability to search by ware name over anything else. I don't care about filtering by bulk/container/whatever at all, since if the selected trade ship can't carry the ware then it won't be visible. And I've never see anything about filtering by system.

Another annoying thing about the trade offers page is that if you select a ware (e.g. plasma cells) and then change to the sell page, most of the time it won't "keep your place". Meaning that even though you've already selected plasma cells on the buy page, you have to find it again on the sell page.

And another stupid thing is that construction vessels still show up on the trade offers page, even though they can't sell ware anymore.

It would be nice if the UI was just consistent, I've been programming for 30 years (damn, I am getting on Crying or Very sad) and parts of the UI appear to show a total lack of regard towards OOP (yes, that is a dig at the devs). For example the differences in ship builder menus between capital and small ships. Why do capital builders have that nice icon to click for info, but the small ship builders have an "encyclopaedia" button.

Many of the trade windows also clip important information, with no way to resize the column - it's utter madness!

OOP doesn't have anything to do with UI design. I'm sure the data is all there in the background which would be the OOP part.

[EDIT]
All the all, the main problem with the UI is that it isn't streamlined. The interface is X3 games may not be user-friendly but once you figured it out you could do things really fast. X:Rebirth, on the other hand, the UI often gets in the way. Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that they are trying to support controllers so they can't optimize it for keyboards like X3. Another part is that they are concentrated on improving the initial experience of X:Rebirth so the latter end of the game, where you have lots of ships and stations, loses out.

For example, the problems with trade offers screen isn't bad when you only have access to a single page of wares but really becomes a problem when you have 3/4 pages of wares.

[EventHorizon]

OOP doesn't have anything to do with UI design. I'm sure the data is all there in the background which would be the OOP part.

Yes it does - OOP is not limited to data and business logic but ALL code. There should be a single function for building such a window (there may be many such functions for each window), but there clearly is not. Considering that the small ships trading was added in much later than capitals - which were day 1 - it is clear that this was thrown in without anybody checking to see what was already there. Now, there are indeed UI design philosophies that don't follow OO concepts but very few in this day and age.

Now, as we don't have the source it is impossible to say exactly how it is built. If there are separate methods used to build a cap ship menu and a small ship menu (keep in mind this is just one of many such inconsistencies and is used only as an example) then there is duplication of effort (reduction of which is one of the core functions of OOP design). If it is based on some data structure that defines what buttons, columns etc are to be displayed (which would be very inefficient at best) then one of the developers didn't check for an existing structure and built a new one - which would also be a violation of OOP design principals.

Regardless, it cannot be argued that these inconsistencies show a total lack of testing and oversight. Considering previous titles from Egosoft have at least had a consistent UI (if not consistent between titles or even versions), one cannot help but wonder just what has/is going on there.