Which recurring feature request would you like to see implemented first?

[Graaf]

In short: The Trade part no longer requires the Think part.

Is there really any need to insult people who prefer to play the Trader in XR?

I would love to play the Trader in Rebirth. Unfortunately it only allows me to play the Manager.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

...

you dont get it do you? there are just no different kind of tradings to use their differences, hence their differences have no value. you can do whatever you want with one personally chosen trader ship but you will hardly manage 20 different trader ships for their values manually and the managers cant use different ships for different purposes. so... can you use like 3 different trader? one for stations one for cv and one for personal trading? bah

You are the one who does not seem to get it...

There is not just one type of economy trading goods, there are 4 economy goods types (exc. the special case of Fuel) - Bulk, Liquid (and Gas), Energy, and Container. Not all trade ships can carry every ware type and not all ships can mine asteroids or collect gasses/liquids either, so while you personally do not have direct control over what each ship does when under control of a station manager by outfitting ships appropriately you can limit the scope of their operations to a degree. The station manager is a fire-and-forget system in the main (allocate station trading resources and let them manage them). IME the system works well enough but no-one is saying it is perfect.

As GCU pointed out, for personal trading you can use different ships in your fleet for different purposes employing your own knowledge of each ship's capabilities. I would argue it is part of the Think aspect of the game (something you claimed was missing) to let the player determine how best to utilise each ship in the personal trade fleet. This situation is little different from the X-Trilogy in some ways except the rules over ships carrying wares is slightly more restrictive.

Where PC owned station trading is concerned, the manager AI could probably do with some improvement either in execution or configuration but that is nothing explicitly to do with ship diversity nor does it remove the think part from trading either (you still have to allocate appropriate ships outfitted for appropriate capabilities - e.g. Resource collection capable ships need to be loaded out with appropriate drones to enable a manager to use them for resource collection).

From the general vein of where this discussion has been heading, you want more control over how a manager deploys their assets but that is not the way that this discussion started and was not even close to being clearly explained in the discussion trigger post (nor really the intervening posts) if that is your actual concern.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

haha. i didnt ask how can you use 3 different traders, i said thats all you can do in XR... but nice rant btw

Snafu quoted a question asking if 3 traders can be used. If you meant that as a statement you should try and write less ambiguously to avoid people laughing at you.

If you're only using 3 different traders for use with personal trading, CVs and stations that's your choice, just as it would be the choice of other to potentially consider that unnecessarily self-limiting and inefficient.

[NodusCursorius]

As for "how" v. "if" you can acquire money, nothing has really changed on that score except by the ability to queue trades

...

This situation is little different from the X-Trilogy in some ways

I provided over ten examples in what has changed. You are introducing intellectual dishonesty at this point.

Most of the things you're mentioning in this post have never really featured in X3's core game...

I stated, specifically, the examples included in core X3 gameplay without even dipping into mods or bonus packs. "never really" doesn't seem like you want to make a definitive disagreement with that, either.

I find XRs trading satisfying precisely because I have direct personal involvement with my trade fleet

This feature has already existed in prior X games and is unrelated to X R.


Whenever I attempt to have a discussion my citations are ignored, my examples are ignored, and instead of remaining on topic to address specific things I have stated, it is turned around in the fashion of personal discussion instead of objective debate:

Is there really any need to insult people who prefer to play the Trader in XR?

You may not like the nature of the trading

I do not know how much you have played the games as your forum account seems relatively new but I have put 1000's of hours into this series and what I have stated is based on my experience.

Taking offense over disagreement, stating the obvious nature of disagreements when that is the point of this topic, and trying to shoehorn in account age with the game experience.... no.

I give up on this side of the community. Be at peace.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@NodusC: Intellectual dishonesty? I am sorry but if that is what you think then you are way off base. Trading in X-games has never at a big picture level been about "if" you can acquire money in-game. Some trades you may make profit (with careful consideration massive profit), others you may make a loss or just break even but it has rarely been an exercise in gambling. You may try to deny it, but gazumping of trades does cause issues with AI controlled (and looped point-to-point) trading under certain circumstances.

My comment about forum account age and linking it to game experience is based on the fact that most new forum members are new to the game. You claimed that something is not the case that definitely is, which gives further weight to the assumption that you are relatively new to the series. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is not a case of derogatory "noob" critique that is unfortunately common in the MMO crowd (though I can see how someone might take it that way).

None of us know everything about the game, and depending on how each of us play it we may each encounter different experiences. Just because any one of us encounter a given issue does not mean everyone else will encounter the same situation, that does not mean the issue in question does/did not exist.

Yes, X-Rebirth is a different game in many ways from the X-Trilogy (no-one argues that is it not) but while things have changed quite substantially in form the general "spirit" of the game (for want of a better term) has not in the main.

Trading in X-Rebirth works pretty much the same as it did in previous games, nothing has been removed per se. The main difference being that while the space may feel bigger in essence there are less stations thus less spread in the trading web which obviously gives the impression of less competition for the production of certain goods.

This does of course make it harder for the player to muscle in as the primary supplier of any given goods but to me that was never a core feature of an X-game.

I enjoy trading. I enjoyed the myriad of problems I had to solve and how some of them required more, or less, levels of direct interaction. How there was variation between difficulty of solving trade routes and how managing a solution without tanking faction reputation, due to pushing out competing traders, was a part of that.

All of that is removed. We're left with a bare-bones trading system when compared to X3 that doesn't actually improve upon the dynamics that were left behind.

What you have complained about specifically in the quoted points would possibly be addressed in part by option 1 in the OP's poll.

The claims that "things were removed" is the bit that probably gets most people's goat. In essence, nothing has been removed it is just that X-Rebirth is basically representing a universe that is re-emerging from a prolonged period of fragmentation of the original factions (and isolation of the new factions from each other). The implications of this is that the well established inter-dependent cross-universe economy that was present in X3 is no longer there and as a result the nature of how the player interacts with it has changed.

If you were expecting the same level of economic interaction between all the different factions in X-Rebirth that we had in X3 then you seem to have ignored (at least part of) the primary lore aspects behind X-Rebirth.

The universe economy situation may be different in the sequel to X-Rebirth or perhaps will be mutated/extended in a patch/DLC but other than that there is always the potential for a mod to be developed that facilitates the degree of economic interaction you seem to be looking for.

In short, trading in X-Rebirth is more localised and flow of trade is not restricted/facilitated by a vast network of gates (which the player could alter via the Xenon Hub in X3:TC/X3:AP). This means certain challenges that perhaps had to be overcome in previous games to achieve certain goals using certain approaches are no longer a factor but in their place there are other considerations.

The network of Highways in any given cluster is the main focus of trade routes (to coin your term) but where the bulk of trading is concerned those highways are largely irrelevant as the larger trade ships can boost between zones in the same sector (and jump directly to an adjacent sector with-in the same cluster). In X-Rebirth (as with all the X-Trilogy games), it is proximity of stations that dictate preferred trading targets in the main not specific trade routes.

With Jump Gates and jump drives as they stand, personally I have concerns that increased trans-jump-gate traffic will cause other problems due to the speed with which the AI currently navigates through the jump gates.

[Lander1979]

X Rebirth is not comparable to X-3 in any manner. Nothing that was in X-3 has been removed in X-Rebirth, It simply Doesn't exist yet or may never.

EGO may, as a company, have been around for 25+ years, but for many of the Artists and Devs, This is their first Rodeo in the X universe. Many of them weren't around when "Y" feature was implemented in X-2 or X-3.

X-Rebirth is a completely different game engine than the old X-BTF Legacy Engine, and that means you can't just cut and paste features from X-3 into Rebirth as the two are completely different creatures.

These so-called "removed" features have to be built up again from scratch in the new engine, and if the original development of the X-BTF engine is anything to go by that is going to take years, as well as cooperation between the players and the Dev team, as to what needs to be implemented, and how.

It's no good stamping your feet and getting rowdy chanting slogans to bring back "Y" feature the way it was back in "X-#" as that simply isn't an option, only patience, cooperation, and goodwill towards others will serve you well here in this respect.

[Luanda]

X Rebirth is not comparable to X-3 in any manner. Nothing that was in X-3 has been removed in X-Rebirth, It simply Doesn't exist yet or may never.

EGO may, as a company, have been around for 25+ years, but for many of the Artists and Devs, This is their first Rodeo in the X universe. Many of them weren't around when "Y" feature was implemented in X-2 or X-3.

X-Rebirth is a completely different game engine than the old X-BTF Legacy Engine, and that means you can't just cut and paste features from X-3 into Rebirth as the two are completely different creatures.

These so-called "removed" features have to be built up again from scratch in the new engine, and if the original development of the X-BTF engine is anything to go by that is going to take years, as well as cooperation between the players and the Dev team, as to what needs to be implemented, and how.

It's no good stamping your feet and getting rowdy chanting slogans to bring back "Y" feature the way it was back in "X-#" as that simply isn't an option, only patience, cooperation, and goodwill towards others will serve you well here in this respect.

well. no. any code written on a x286 in C can be used in vs c# in 2015. the programming is not about a line of characters, the programming is about logic. and the logic is what isnt ported from x3 into xr. just look at the menu. in x2/x3 they had to learn that people prefer simple, quick, easy to see colored, organised menus even if they have multiple levels and not aesthetic. this is just a logic they had 20 years to learn. what they did to xr? made crappy interlaced textures, barely visible texts, multiple menus, disorganised, slow, buttons are everywhere except where it would be logical and dismissed rightclick interactivity. THEY FREAKIN HAD IT ALREADY. why did they mess it up? or fleetcontrol. they could just import the logic and improve it. instead it is generally still nonexistant. there are a few things added but its nothing yet. or the mouse control. we had both the fixed mouse and the mousefollow in AP (finally after 7 years of improving X3) and what they did? they simply dismissed one. docking: one of the best thing was for me, and as i read the forums here and on steam for a lot of others too the manual "looking" docking. instead of improving it and adding choices they simply dismissed the logic. its all about implementing the logic they have already had.

haha. i didnt ask how can you use 3 different traders, i said thats all you can do in XR... but nice rant btw

Snafu quoted a question asking if 3 traders can be used. If you meant that as a statement you should try and write less ambiguously to avoid people laughing at you.

If you're only using 3 different traders for use with personal trading, CVs and stations that's your choice, just as it would be the choice of other to potentially consider that unnecessarily self-limiting and inefficient.

yes because manually managing a fleet of 20 different traders for different functions is fun playable and first of all possible... what you simply cant seem to understand there are no 20 different ways of trading in xr so there is no point having 20 different trader ships. while in x3 there was. its not self limiting, its the game that limits the choices

[Lander1979]

Luanda, please don't quote me without actually reading anything I have written. The argument you are trying to postulate has no groundings in reality.

[Luanda]

Luanda, please don't quote me without actually reading anything I have written. The argument you are trying to postulate has no groundings in reality.

yes it does,. you might just dont understand it

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

[Luanda]

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...

[GCU Grey Area]

yes because manually managing a fleet of 20 different traders for different functions is fun playable and first of all possible... what you simply cant seem to understand there are no 20 different ways of trading in xr so there is no point having 20 different trader ships. while in x3 there was. its not self limiting, its the game that limits the choices

Entirely the other way round for me.

In X3 more often then not used to settle on a single TS which I then I used for pretty much everything - Caimen Hauler was a fairly common choice (reasonably fast, average cargo capacity) unless I was at war with the Split, in which case my usual backup choice was Demeter Hauler (slightly slower, slightly higher capacity, though in practice the differences are negligible).

Find in XR I make use of a much wider variety of freighters - the magnitude of the differences between freighters is greater, so there's more incentive for me to think carefully about which specific ship is best suited to the task at hand.

Beginning to get the feeling that you may not have played XR for quite a long time & not be aware of how much things have changed since the early days, when the Rahanas line of freighters were used pretty much everywhere - game has changed a great deal since then.

[wwdragon]

There is not even any credits exchanged between npc stations, to my knowledge.

umm... when has this happened in any previous game?

Not a relevant question, because pervious games did not claim they had a 'real, living economy'.
XRebirth makes that claim.

I don't agree with the other points, however this game treats the player different then npcs.
That and no money exchange means it is not immersive.
There's no real ability to take over another suppliers job by attrition; you can only take over by building a station closer.

Do you remember the storyline mission over on the right side ofthe map in X3:TC that you do to sabatoge a competitors ships, so that the guy who is helping you find the boron scientists, will actually cooperate?
That's what it should feel like when I destroy a competitors ships in X:R.
However, because I know they have lost only time, it does not.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...

No, you listed 7 trading ships from M3 and TS hulls, which is only ~14% of the available TS hulls in AP. You did not justify needing 20 and even if you did, that's less than half the number of TS hulls. The point is that people fave given examples of how they use differenttrade ships for different purposes and even if they don't use all of them, people didn't really use all of them in previous games either. I'm sure we'll get more ships as time goes on just as we did in the past.

[Vim Razz]

Most of the things you're mentioning in this post have never really featured in X3's core game...

I stated, specifically, the examples included in core X3 gameplay without even dipping into mods or bonus packs. "never really" doesn't seem like you want to make a definitive disagreement with that, either.

eh... The "not really" was deliberate given the X-U series' confusing -- and often symbiotic -- historical relationship with mods.

My understanding is that the Mk3 trader system you've drawn a lot of arguments from was a mod adopted into the X3 distribution package before the "bonus pack" system was a thing. I have a hard time calling that a core feature, personally.

We don't have anything approaching the ST/UT script's level of sophistication in Rebirth yet, and getting there isn't a trivial thing with Rebirth's more complicated navigation environment and trade system.

Not a relevant question, because pervious games did not claim they had a 'real, living economy'.
XRebirth makes that claim.

I see your point, though the only place I see "real, living economies" in practice is where you have real, living economic players. Eve's player economy is by far the best example that I'm familiar with, but even Eve has to pull cash out of the NPC rabbit-hole in order to stay afloat. (All money in Eve is generated by the mission system.)

So I have a hard time regarding it as a fundamental problem.


I do have mixed feelings about Rebirth's economy in general (and find the lack of direct player agency in some key areas to be the biggest problem), but I don't consider it "worse" than prior games at it's core. Rebirth's system ~does~ solve some rather significant exploits in earlier games economic systems that I've been quite happy to move away from. (pricing vice/tech wares at 1cr below average for infinite product dumping, anyone? I'm done with that, thanks.)

[Snafu_X3]

IIRC the ST/UT model was originally a mod developed for X2. It was incorporated into X3:R & X3:TC's Bonus Pack as an 'official mod' (like MDM &c), then subsumed into X3:AP as part of the game

Personally I think autonomous galaxy traders would be a 'nice to have' feature, but while the station managers' AI is so broken I'd much prefer to see a comeback of CAG..

[Nanook]

IIRC the ST/UT model was originally a mod developed for X2. It was incorporated into X3:R & X3:TC's Bonus Pack as an 'official mod' (like MDM &c), then subsumed into X3:AP as part of the game...

Actually, it was included in a later bonus pack for X2, then for X3R, TC and AP it was incorporated by Egosoft into those games as a core feature.

[Luanda]

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...

No, you listed 7 trading ships from M3 and TS hulls, which is only ~14% of the available TS hulls in AP. You did not justify needing 20 and even if you did, that's less than half the number of TS hulls. The point is that people fave given examples of how they use differenttrade ships for different purposes and even if they don't use all of them, people didn't really use all of them in previous games either. I'm sure we'll get more ships as time goes on just as we did in the past.

i see you still dont understand what is the difference... omg. its not about how many ships we have. we have a lot in xr too, there is just no point having different ones because there are no functions where you could use them.

like: x3 having a huge cargosize based strongly shielded and fairly armed trader with a jd is a typical universe trader. in xr not an option because there is no universe trader.
in x3 having a fairly big cargo but less than the UT in exchange for more speed well armored and armed is a good sector trader. not an option, there is no sector trader in xr
in x3 having a small quick trader with still fairly big cargo is a good insector ship to buy ores for your station. not an option because you cant tell your stationtraders what to buy or sell
in x3 having a weakly armored but quick trader is a good choice for bigger friendly territory stationtrader to make further runs same as the other one.

and these are just a few examples of all the choices you had next to each other. you had a diverse set of traders because there were different ways to trade.

its not just about having diverse ships but about having a reason to have diverse ships. in XR you add a ship to the stations and use one for the manual trading. there are no more functions for the tradeships. its not about using every ships, its about having choices and options

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...

No, you listed 7 trading ships from M3 and TS hulls, which is only ~14% of the available TS hulls in AP. You did not justify needing 20 and even if you did, that's less than half the number of TS hulls. The point is that people fave given examples of how they use differenttrade ships for different purposes and even if they don't use all of them, people didn't really use all of them in previous games either. I'm sure we'll get more ships as time goes on just as we did in the past.

i see you still dont understand what is the difference... omg. its not about how many ships we have. we have a lot in xr too, there is just no point having different ones because there are no functions where you could use them.

like: x3 having a huge cargosize based strongly shielded and fairly armed trader with a jd is a typical universe trader. in xr not an option because there is no universe trader.
in x3 having a fairly big cargo but less than the UT in exchange for more speed well armored and armed is a good sector trader. not an option, there is no sector trader in xr
in x3 having a small quick trader with still fairly big cargo is a good insector ship to buy ores for your station. not an option because you cant tell your stationtraders what to buy or sell
in x3 having a weakly armored but quick trader is a good choice for bigger friendly territory stationtrader to make further runs same as the other one.

and these are just a few examples of all the choices you had next to each other. you had a diverse set of traders because there were different ways to trade.

its not just about having diverse ships but about having a reason to have diverse ships. in XR you add a ship to the stations and use one for the manual trading. there are no more functions for the tradeships. its not about using every ships, its about having choices and options

So many fallacies...so little time.

"x3 having a huge cargosize based strongly shielded and fairly armed trader with a jd is a typical universe trader. in xr not an option because there is no universe trader."
Erm, see above...UTs were modder-created, not Egosoft created, and there are no less than 3 UT mods available for Rebirth. Whether Egosoft continue their tradition or incorporating UT functionality for the player or not makes little practical difference for the player since the the mods have been available for ages.

"in x3 having a fairly big cargo but less than the UT in exchange for more speed well armored and armed is a good sector trader. not an option, there is no sector trader in xr"
See previous sentence.

"in x3 having a small quick trader with still fairly big cargo is a good insector ship to buy ores for your station. not an option because you cant tell your stationtraders what to buy or sell"
Ores are not sold in Rebirth, but in any case, ore mining ships are available to supply such basic wares.

"in x3 having a weakly armored but quick trader is a good choice for bigger friendly territory stationtrader to make further runs same as the other one."
Despite having played X3 games a lot, I cannot understand this sentence but as others have stated, there are various weakly armour but quick traders available in Rebith.

"in XR you add a ship to the stations and use one for the manual trading. there are no more functions for the tradeships. its not about using every ships, its about having choices and option"
If you were to limit yourself to Egosoft-only features you could probably say basically the same for several X games. If, as Egosoft does, you recognise that modders have good ideas worth using, then there are many options.

[Luanda]

So many fallacies...so little time.

"x3 having a huge cargosize based strongly shielded and fairly armed trader with a jd is a typical universe trader. in xr not an option because there is no universe trader."
Erm, see above...UTs were modder-created, not Egosoft created, and there are no less than 3 UT mods available for Rebirth. Whether Egosoft continue their tradition or incorporating UT functionality for the player or not makes little practical difference for the player since the the mods have been available for ages.

"in x3 having a fairly big cargo but less than the UT in exchange for more speed well armored and armed is a good sector trader. not an option, there is no sector trader in xr"
See previous sentence.

"in x3 having a small quick trader with still fairly big cargo is a good insector ship to buy ores for your station. not an option because you cant tell your stationtraders what to buy or sell"
Ores are not sold in Rebirth, but in any case, ore mining ships are available to supply such basic wares.

"in x3 having a weakly armored but quick trader is a good choice for bigger friendly territory stationtrader to make further runs same as the other one."
Despite having played X3 games a lot, I cannot understand this sentence but as others have stated, there are various weakly armour but quick traders available in Rebith.

"in XR you add a ship to the stations and use one for the manual trading. there are no more functions for the tradeships. its not about using every ships, its about having choices and option"
If you were to limit yourself to Egosoft-only features you could probably say basically the same for several X games. If, as Egosoft does, you recognise that modders have good ideas worth using, then there are many options.

when did those make into the game? around 2007? can you tell me WHY did those made into the game? because so many wanted it. they had it for 6 years before the release of XR and they were not good enough to make it into this game... yeah. and the different orders for the stationtraders? you now have to micromanage your personal trader but you have no single word on what the traders assigned to the station do?

"Despite having played X3 games a lot, I cannot understand this sentence but as others have stated, there are various weakly armour but quick traders available in Rebith." I dont comment the rest but this... I guess you know that a stations need different wares and that you can find those different wares in different sectors at different distances. right? I guess. you also know that different wares have different sizes and different amount of them is required for production. right? lets say there is a station with primary needs and secondary needs. like chemical compounds need 3 kind of energy 3 kind of container and 2 kind of liquid wares. lets just talk about the container ones. you need food medicals and spacefuel. a lot of food and a little of the other 2. what if the medicals are in the same zone while the food is in a sector at the other end of the local highway and the spacefuel is in an other system? for the first you would need an any small slow little trader, certainly not a capital because its pointless to buy 30 med in the same zone with a capship. for the food a small agile cap trader would be good to boost there and back not using the highways and for the third again a subcap but an agile one with jumpdrive would be better option which just doesnt exist. can you do such organisation in XR? no. you just give one container ship and see it continuously buying med supply from the inzone stations and cry fu when you see it going around with 10 meds in cargo. in x3 you had the choices to run traders for the different sized wares in different distances based on how much you need of them, now you just dont have any word on it... and this is just one example from the many. if you still cant understand what im talking about i have nothing else to say

and those are not fallacies, those were the interesting part of the trading in x3 and what is missing from this game