get we ever more ships to fly again

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we would still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course.

There have been hints at this perhaps being in the works with Bernd's cagey references a while back to experiments regarding an X4 class game but there are no hard facts to support what those experiments entailed nor an expected time to market for the result (assuming success). All supposition at this point.

I suspect Egosoft still have their hands full completing X-Rebirth and addressing the current feature/change/fix request list they have not completely ruled out from the free update list. Normally, once they have released their next game, support for the preceding title stops thus I doubt the product including multiple player ships is going to be announced for a while yet.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we could still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course.

There have been hints at this perhaps being in the works with Bernd's cagey ref erences a while back to experiments regarding an X4 class game but there are no hard facts to support what those experiments entailed nor an expected time to market for the result (assuming success). All supposition at this point.

I suspect Egosoft still have their hands full completing X-Rebirth and addressing the current feature/change/fix request list they have not completely ruled out from the free update list. Normally, once they have released their next game, support for the preceding title stops thus I doubt the product including multiple player ships is going to be announced for a while yet.

"BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships"

What does the general sense mean in this quote and who does it apply to?

Expressing a desire for multiple playable ships is not the same as arguing they should be free. I don't remember seeing any posts arguing for the latter recently.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Really? For example, the talk by some in this thread about making the change easier/cheaper seems to point at there still being some arguing the case (c/f skunk per capital comment).

In addition, the fact some seemingly objecting to my references to it only being done as a major paid for expansion or as part of the next instalment is another fair and reasonable indicator that there are still some die-hards trying to argue the case for it being delivered for free.

If we are going to get the multiple player pilotable ships feature, I am pretty sure it is not going to be delivered any time in the next 6 months (could be wrong but I suspect we will get at least 3 months official notice of it prior to release in any case) but when it is I have no doubt it will be delivered in a suitably comprehensive form (most likely without capital ship piloting though if I were to make any guesses).

[Nanook]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we would still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course....

When you quote or refer to my posts, it IS about my viewpoint.

"The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for .... "

What general sense? Yours? And who are the "some"? I can't say as I've read that anywhere in this whole thread. Rather than made-up stuff, how about some cold, hard facts? This is one of the most masterful obfuscations I've seen in quite some time.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Really? For example, the talk by some in this thread about making the change easier/cheaper seems to point at there still being some arguing the case (c/f skunk per capital comment).

As I have said, I don't remember seeing any posts arguing for a free update for multiple playable ships. Which posts do you mean?

What does "the general sense" mean in the above quote and who does it apply to?

In addition, the fact some seemingly objecting to my references to it only being done as a major paid for expansion or as part of the next instalment is another fair and reasonable indicator that there are still some die-hards trying to argue the case for it being delivered for free.

Without quotes/evidence to the contrary, a simpler explanation would be since many posters have been here for a long time, they may simply be objecting to you repeatedly bringing it up.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@ sparky/nanook: The general sense is not pointed at anyone specific, it is what it is - a general sense/impression. As for a case in point, I have already pointed out one example in the first part of the post Sparky quoted.

Anyway, I can see this specific line of discussion heading no-where good (similar lines have done so in the past) so I will leave it there before we start to go off topic (or other undesirable places).

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

The general sense is not pointed at anyone specific, it is what it is - a general sense/impression.

"The general sense is" seems to imply some form of consensus and/or past agreement.
"My general sense is" may perhaps be closer to what you meant?

As for a case in point, I have already pointed out one example in the first part of the post Sparky quoted.

The first part of what I quoted was directed at Nanook but his previous two posts say:

Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:14 am
"You also don't seem to get that if we keep asking and pressing for more ships, it's more likely that we'll get them because Egosoft sees a demand. Paying extra for it would likely be fine with most people,"

Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:08 pm
"And just where in my post did I say 'free'? I explicitly said I'd be willing to pay for it, and probably most others would, too."

Therefore what you are saying is evidence for some trying to argue for a free update for multiple player ships is explicitly the opposite of that.

[CBJ]

As so often happens, this is degenerating into semantic nitpicking. Discuss the subject in hand, not each other's debating techniques, or it will be locked.

[Graaf]

...because of the expected level of effort involved...

"expected"...as in "we haven't actually tried to do it, but it might be hard to do, so we just wont try it at all"?

Another worthless word just like potential.

Now that CBJ is here maybe we can get an official word from Egosoft about it.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Graaf: I do not presume to speak for Egosoft but...

expected level of effort = estimate (typically without hard numbers) = what is believed to be involved (i.e. not worthless but a key part of project/task planning)

Before any work is carried out in the commercial world you have to (or at least should) look at the expected level of effort required to complete the job properly (this ideally includes an assessment of risk to the other features of the product). If this estimate is too high nothing is even tried, it is that simple (at least where free work is concerned). When planning for another product (e.g. expansion/sequel) the given work may still be factored in to that project.

Based on what we have heard on the topic to date (from Egosoft personnel) it is a reasonable expectation of the community that Egosoft would only include multiple flyable player ships in a major paid for product (e.g. expansion or sequel) based on X-Rebirth (as opposed to part of a free update/patch for X-Rebirth).

[Graaf]

And this is also a moot point.

It really does't matter when or how they implement it (DLC/expansion/sequel), the work has to be done anyways. And if it is really a lot of work then they better start soon[TM]. And from my point of view, creating the extra cockpits is going to be the easy part.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

In short it will be done when it is done. It is for Egosoft to decide if or when to start the work and I doubt we will hear anything concrete about it until they are over the hump of the work and are close to releasing it. They will obviously start the work when they are ready to and it will take as long as it takes, it is not for us to say to them "they better start soon" which implies an expectation of delivery by a certain deadline.

We know they have already started looking at (at least some) aspects of the next game (c/f Bernd's reference to X4 experiments) but until they are ready to make a substantive formal announcement about the next title I would not hold my breath on any given feature being implemented nor when the formal announcement is likely to be made.

[Lander1979]

I have an entirely different perspective on this topic. IMO the first player flyable ships other than the Skunk will most probably be lovingly hand-crafted by the player Modding community.

[Graaf]

it is not for us to say to them "they better start soon" which implies an expectation of delivery by a certain deadline.

I never mention anything about a deadline. I was just reacting on the "expected level of effort". But if the ELOE is converted to time, then we are using a measure Rebirth doesn't really have a lot of.

I have an entirely different perspective on this topic. IMO the first player flyable ships other than the Skunk will most probably be lovingly hand-crafted by the player Modding community.

And it will most likely be another boring combat ship.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Graaf: We know little or nothing about the internal workings of Egosoft and thus do not know about "how much time" they have for X-Rebirth development (or any other development for that matter).

As we are not talking about it ever really being part of X-Rebirth's current product development (i.e. not delivered for free) but rather the development as part of a major "paid-for" add-on/expansion/sequel the point about how much time they have for X-Rebirth is moot as it effectively falls into the category of Egosoft's development schedule for the next paid-for product (a totally separate consideration).

There is more to ELOE considerations than just available time though, risk to the current functionality of product can be a bigger driver to deferring features than actual time of development. Either way it is moot, Egosoft will do what they will do at the end of the day and have the resources they have.

The present iteration of X-Rebirth is the current focus of developmental effort from what we have been seen to date and the next title will either be announced when Egosoft is ready to announce it or perhaps never arrive at all (worst case). Either way we will not know anything concrete until Egosoft are ready to tell us.

The point being they know that there is strong support for multiple flyable ships in a future X-Rebirth based game and since the main hump of X-Rebirth's experimental/initial/engine development should have been addressed by the time they really start work on the next title (as part of the on-going support for X-Rebirth) I see no good reason for it to be deliberately excluded as a target requirement for that product.

[Graaf]

@Graaf: We know little or nothing about the internal workings of Egosoft ....

From what I have seen in regard to Rebirth it looks like a dictatorship under Bernd.

....and thus do not know about "how much time" they have for X-Rebirth development (or any other development for that matter).

Given that Rebirth is their only title, they have all their time for it. But they need to hurry before the number of active players dwindle down too much.

As we are not talking about it ever really being part of X-Rebirth's current product development (i.e. not delivered for free) but rather the development as part of a major "paid-for" add-on/expansion/sequel ...

Why do you consider those separate developments? The Teladi Outpost is a paid-for add-on/expansion too!

There is more to ELOE considerations than just available time though, risk to the current functionality of product can be a bigger driver to deferring features than actual time of development. Either way it is moot, Egosoft will do what they will do at the end of the day and have the resources they have.

I'll direct you here, especially this part:

Adding features to a game that was not designed for these features at the start, is never perfect.

The point being they know that there is strong support for multiple flyable ships in a future X-Rebirth based game ...

There is strong support for it being included now. There always has been.

...and since the main hump of X-Rebirth's experimental/initial/engine development should have been addressed by the time they really start work on the next title (as part of the on-going support for X-Rebirth)...

The main hump? Then if I take X3 as reference, ism't it already?

I see no good reason for it to be deliberately excluded as a target requirement for that product.

I don't see a good reason why it was excluded in Rebirth.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

As we are not talking about it ever really being part of X-Rebirth's current product development (i.e. not delivered for free) but rather the development as part of a major "paid-for" add-on/expansion/sequel ...

Why do you consider those separate developments? The Teladi Outpost is a paid-for add-on/expansion too!

I doubt that more than 1% of the DLC owners actually paid for it.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Graaf: You can design for a feature without implementing said feature in the first instance (nor necessarily allowing for easy/quick implementation of said feature). The distinction between implementation and design is something many people have trouble distinguishing between. Whether the engine was actually designed with a future requirement of multiple/alternate player flyable ship in mind is unknown but it is a fair assumption that it was (it would have been insane not to consider it during the design phase given the apparent level of effort they put into writing the new engine).

My impression is that the single player ship was an implementation decision to control project risk due to the level of work involved in writing the game engine from scratch. It was an early decision made for X-Rebirth and from what we have been told to date it is too much work to expect multiple player flyable ships implemented as part of the current product.

X-Rebirth is the first game written on this engine (X3 was completely different software based on the X-Trilogy engine) thus the main issues need to be resolved before serious work on the next title based on the same engine can realistically begin, to do otherwise would be plain insanity unless said work has zero inter-dependency with on-going/outstanding work. In addition, there has to be consideration for what work is currently outstanding and needs to be done on the current game and priority should be given to such work over work on the next title. As I see it, they still have some ways to go before "full-tilt" working on the next title.

But all of this is pretty irrelevant to the matter at hand except to highlight that based on what Egosoft have said to date we can only realistically expect multiple-flyable-ships in the next major paid for product (which Egosoft will announce the details of when they are ready to).