X3:AP MK3 vs CAG

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MK3 or CAG for maximum profit

MK3
3
23%
CAG
10
77%
 
Total votes: 13

MrFiction
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X3:AP MK3 vs CAG

Post by MrFiction » Thu, 15. Jan 15, 10:01

For the experts, I'm trying to compare the profitability of MK3 traders vs CAG traders (from the bonus pack). What do you think, factories with CAG or MK3 ships to make money?

My observations:
- Both MK3 and CAG ships can easily avoid combat and pirates. CAGs report when they spot pirates and wait it out. High level MK3 ships deploy fighter drones automatically and dock at the nearest station. So whatever the ship, they rarely get destroyed and both MK3 and CAG seems perform just as well in avoiding combat.

- CAG traders are very effective, they master buy low/sell high even at low levels.

- CAGs profitability is easy to track. For MK3 I can't find how they perform and have to assume it's working well.

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DrBullwinkle
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Post by DrBullwinkle » Thu, 15. Jan 15, 15:32

I use MK3's because they are easier; just launch them and let them handle the details. Profitability is irrelevant as long as they are profitable. Steal more traders if you want more profitsssss. :pirat:

I augment vanilla Mk3's with CLS2 at NPC stations that tend to "stall" because their trades are unprofitable. Large weapon forges are prone to that.



On the other hand, some people prefer to manage their trading assets more closely. It is a fun part of the game for them. For those people, CAG gives you greater control.

That's what it boils down to: CAG if you like managing traders; Mk3 if you do not.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Thu, 15. Jan 15, 17:25

Neither is not an option on the poll.

I have been studying up on CAGs, so I choose that.
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sithneverdiealone
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Post by sithneverdiealone » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 00:38

Personally I have found i prefer CLS over ether, but if forced to chose I would go with CAG

ancienthighway
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Post by ancienthighway » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 05:56

CAGs, CLS1, CLS2, and UTs all have a role to play that is different from the others. CAGs and CLS1 excel at managing your stations; CAGS if you depend on NPC stations for supplying goods and profits, CLS1 if you get your supplies from other owned stations.

CLS2 is flexible enough that it can work station support for your owned stations or work on earning profit from any combination of owned and NPC stations you want to set up. The only drawbacks are new CLS2 pilots have limited functionality and the stations the ship use are limited by design.

UTs, along with STs and LTs, are pretty much set in motion and periodically check to make sure they are functioning properly.

All of these options are less efficient than manually operated remote trading (MORT) though. That efficiency, though, decreases as the size of the trading fleet and your current focus in the game changes.

MORT and CLS2 traders are the cheapest to set up. A ship, some low cost software, and start trading. Mk2 traders and CAG require a substantial set up cost, expensive software or an expensive station.

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Post by Graaf » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 07:32

CAG don't actually make money. You have to pay them to do their job as the glorified transport pilots they are. I hardly use them.

Mk3 S/U-traders do make money trading and do not have to be payed for it.

Comparing 5 UT's (level 25, homebased to PHQ) to a small complex of 5 L-sized Crystal Fabs, the UT's make just slightly more money.

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Post by Triaxx2 » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 13:05

That's not entirely fair to CAG's. Yes, you do pay them, but they'll also sell for the best profit they can within range. If you want maximum profit, you'll be building things like microchips and hiring only apprentice CAG's. Apprentices only fetch goods and don't get paid. Just turn off training courses, and voila, you're done.

UT's on the other hand, are free to trade for whatever deal they want, anywhere they can find it. They're also kind of stupid. They'll occasionally fill up and not have energy left for jump drives, and end up dead because they tried to cross a Xenon Sector.

CAG's, CLS2 and EST's, LT's are more intelligent. The first three can keep themselves supplied with energy, and the latter can be placed where they can't find themselves in Xenon sectors.
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Earth Ultimatum IV.
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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 14:02

Buy/sell orders.
Build a station, set up prices, transfer some money and assign one freighter per resource.
Rinse and repeat in different areas.

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Post by ancienthighway » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 14:36

It's true that CAGs can't sell in the first few levels, but then they reach the point they can sell and use jumpdrives, and they will make profit.

If you are flush in transports, one transport per resource and product can work, but then you are talking a minimum of 2 ships for station support rather than 1 ship with a CAG. Flush in transports means more CLS2/Mk3 trader opportunities and profits.

The cost of pilots is really negligible when compared to the profits they make for you. I don't even consider it. If you are worried about 10-40 credits per trip, you have bigger problems.

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Post by Graaf » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 17:42

Well, when I only use apprentices then I can just use the basic trade commands and don't bother with the CAG's at all. And the 2 or 3 extra ships is just going to be a delay in ROI.

But the CAG's don't make money, they work for a station. And when they are fully trained and need the jumpdrive for a few hundred credits extra on microchips they usually spend that same amount on jumpfuel making the deal.

I find them more of a nuisance and prefer to play the game on the same field as the AI. Several TS's for buying resources, and maybe a TS for selling, depending on the station.

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Post by jlehtone » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 20:26

Semantics, accounting, and subjective values. I predict that we have to agree that we interpret the situation differently.
Graaf wrote:CAG's don't make money, they work for a station. You have to pay them to do their job as the glorified transport pilots they are.
... when they are fully trained and need the jumpdrive ...
I was under the impression that even the basic trade ships can jump in the latest games, and CAG does not jump if you forbid it. Hence, no fuel cost difference.

Furthermore, one could state that the stations do not make money. There are only two ways to get credits:
1. Transaction with NPC.
2. The add money to player account script command.

Therefore, the "CAG vs basic trade profits" boils down to whether the CAG is so much more efficient than the basic trade that the profits increase surpasses the additional salary costs.

Graaf wrote:Mk3 S/U-traders do make money trading and do not have to be payed for it.
MK3 Traders do get salary, over 12% of the profits. UT's will jump.



As already stated earlier, CAG vs UT is somewhat apples vs oranges, because they have different roles. In theory, you do get maximal profitss when
1. Every NPC Factory is running at full speed non-stop
2. All secondary consumers (particularly the infinite sink Docks) are served
3. You still make to NPC's wait as long as possible (to let stock status change the price favorably), but still
4. Beat the NPC traders to each deal, partly by being faster, partly by keeping them so stocked that they cannot sell anywhere

How and if you reach such market domination is a question that I have no personal interest in, but I bet that a mixture of all methods is more useful than putting all effort to only one approach.
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Fri, 16. Jan 15, 23:57

jlehtone wrote: How and if you reach such market domination is a question that I have no personal interest in, but I bet that a mixture of all methods is more useful than putting all effort to only one approach.
I would take that bet.

NPC traders drive down profit per trade. For a thought experiment, consider adding NPC traders in ever increasing numbers until you reach saturation, meaning that as soon as any factory has enough product to sell for below average an NPC freighter snaps it up, and as soon as a factory will pay above average for a resource some NPC trader with a load is there to sell it.

So, 'market domination' in terms of beating the NPC traders to the deal actually pushes towards minimum profits per deal. The market domination that increases profits involves pushing NPC traders away on one side or the other, either beating them to every sale so they are stuck full of product and you can always buy cheap, or beating them to every buy so they are all stuck on empty and you can thus sell high to desperate buyers.

The Mk3 trader operates in effect like an NPC trader, but superpowered. It will be perfectly happy producing that 'buy at one under average and sell at one over' paradise that the thought experiment produced. And every Mk3 trader you add is like adding a bunch of NPC traders because of their ability to use a jump drive and their ability to handle any product.

Thus when you 'mix in' the Mk3 traders you actually make it harder to establish the market conditions that allow for highest profit trades.
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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

sithneverdiealone
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Post by sithneverdiealone » Sat, 17. Jan 15, 08:11

The real question is weather you take start up costs in to account and how you want to start your trade empire. I've found Tim's CLS ice/power company to be my favorite and it gives extremely reliable income and fairly strait forward to expand infrastructure.
On that note i have in the main Terran sector(Mercury -Oort cloud)several corporations:Hydro of Jupiter(HCoJ),Ration of Saturn(RCoS),Tesla of Venus(TCoV), Ferrum et Sanguinem of the Belt(FSoAB), and Techpriests of Mars(TPoM) for water,food,power,minerals,and tech,respectively.Together they let me control and support Terran space, regardless of the GOD engen. mind you there are about 250 ships involved in this, so its best to set up each company one at a time. i have no clue about the start up cost but I'm making about 30,000,000 with no input... in one of the most secure sectors in the game:)
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Post by MrFiction » Sat, 17. Jan 15, 16:07

The salary of CAG pilots is so small compared to the profit they make. But now that I have about 10 MK3 pilots and a few CAGs, I'm seeing more CAG's on standby because one station doesn't need fulltime support from one ship.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Sat, 17. Jan 15, 16:13

sithneverdiealone wrote:The real question is weather you take start up costs in to account and how you want to start your trade empire. I've found Tim's CLS ice/power company to be my favorite and it gives extremely reliable income and fairly strait forward to expand infrastructure.
On that note i have in the main Terran sector(Mercury -Oort cloud)several corporations:Hydro of Jupiter(HCoJ),Ration of Saturn(RCoS),Tesla of Venus(TCoV), Ferrum et Sanguinem of the Belt(FSoAB), and Techpriests of Mars(TPoM) for water,food,power,minerals,and tech,respectively.Together they let me control and support Terran space, regardless of the GOD engen. mind you there are about 250 ships involved in this, so its best to set up each company one at a time. i have no clue about the start up cost but I'm making about 30,000,000 with no input... in one of the most secure sectors in the game:)
:D

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Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

ancienthighway
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Post by ancienthighway » Sat, 17. Jan 15, 16:30

MrFiction wrote:The salary of CAG pilots is so small compared to the profit they make. But now that I have about 10 MK3 pilots and a few CAGs, I'm seeing more CAG's on standby because one station doesn't need fulltime support from one ship.
.Switch to a smaller capacity ship without cargo expansions.

.Use TPs when you have spare lying around and cargo sizes allow it.

.Set up warehouse stations that collect energy similar to Tim's Ice/Power company, then have CLS1 ships deliver the energy.

.Expand complex.

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Mon, 26. Jan 15, 12:32

Definitely preferred CAGs myself. Common setup for me was to do enough of the Hub plot to relocate the gates somewhere safer, then use it as a giant import/export warehouse trading in pretty much everything except energy cells (needs all it can hold to power the jumpdrives of the trading ships). In most games would eventually have around 50 CAGs working for the Hub, roughly 1/3 of them buying raw materials & intermediate products, another 1/3 selling them, with the remaining 1/3 using the profits to stockpile vast quantities of guns, shields, missiles, drones, etc, for use by my fleet. Only significant use of mk3 traders for me was in Terran sectors, where the limited number of jumpgates made Hub-based CAG trading inefficient.

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