[TC] M3 for fighter capping.

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Lea Flamma
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[TC] M3 for fighter capping.

Post by Lea Flamma » Sat, 1. Mar 14, 10:07

Hi there,
I recently decided to fill my collection of fighters with all those rare/unbuyable/special units. This brought me to a decision to dock an M3 in my Cerberus just for the job. I looked through some offers on several shipyards, but can't make up my mind.

What I came up with are:

1 Argon Nova Raider:
  • highest speed
    good price
    can load L class goods
    lowest weapon energy
    lowest weapon recharge
2 Paranid Perseus:
  • second in speed
    second in weapon energy
    second in weapon recharge
    cheapest
    can mount PBE
3 Boron Skate:
  • slowest
    expensive
    best weapon energy
    best weapon recharge
    one more turret
My goal is: 150+ speed, PBE/ID in front, reactor able to sustain at least 2 of those weapons for longer then 3 seconds. My M7 is too slow to keep in contact with IDs.
Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom.

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Sinxar
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Post by Sinxar » Sat, 1. Mar 14, 11:21

I like using the advanced perseus.

209 m/s
free
comes with PBEs and max shields. I just seen you commented on that ship on Rogueys site a while back. That pic is not right. Here is how it actually looks:

Image

I have a question though, why would you cap fighters with Ion Disruptors? Are you aware that using an Ion Disruptor reduces the chance the target will bail (by a lot)? *

Source: Capping mechanics... (Spoilers and even some disassembled code inside) According to this document and game code, using an Ion Disruptor sets the chance of bail at 4% or below. (can be below if the base chance was lower to start with).
fiksal wrote:so to summarize the summary

probability to cap with Ion Disruptor is less than 4%

morale is the key, but as far as I know, you cant really check it without enabling script editor. One can guess maybe the ships that are ready to drop freight have low morale.

it seems like you may as well hit with strong lasers, while that's gonna kill the hull, it'll give you extra 5%.
more damage to the hull will also bump up your chances
big ships add to the difference, so for example, flying M6 is better than M3

Khaak captures are checked against Combat Rank


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Last edited by Sinxar on Sun, 2. Mar 14, 00:22, edited 1 time in total.

Lea Flamma
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Post by Lea Flamma » Sat, 1. Mar 14, 12:43

I didn't knew this. Thanks for the info. Never really used IDs vs anything smaller then M6. I just know it deals nearly none hull damage. I can also assume that Mass Drivers are a no go. I killed a couple of fighters with them and it seems, that unless you drop the shields of your target, they won't bail.

So right now my search must be redone with the PBes in mind. I tried an L but just one PBE will drain it's energy in seconds...

PS.
Wow, I have forgotten I wrote about the A.Perseus. I like the ship and I knew the image is wrong :) But I guess it's just because there are so many diferent Perseuses :)

EDIT:
So I can choose between Mamba, Chimera, Perseus, Medusa, Falcon.

The Split do not like me much right now, as I have blown a couple of their ships during a friendly fire issue on a patroll mission. All by accident of course. Shame as Chimera looks promissing. I will have to wait for their traders to kick my rep up again.

The Advance Perseus should be somewhere in my "collection" fleet, as I recall finding him already.
Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom.

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Sinxar
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Post by Sinxar » Sat, 1. Mar 14, 14:30

Lea Flamma wrote:So I can choose between Mamba, Chimera, Perseus, Medusa, Falcon.
Its too bad you can't use the Susanowa. I've been grabbing these early game as they are really good and don't require much rep, but a bit light on shields. No PBEs either.

Personally I would choose the Perseus (raider or vanguard for the extra speed).

The Falcon is just so slow. The hauler variant can only get 132 m/s and the weapon energy is bad.

The Mamba is OK. It is a good middle ground

The Chimera is a decent M3+. The speed is good but like most Split ships, lacking a bit on shields for this class.

I like Split fighters in TC mainly for the Mass Drivers. With that speed the range isn't that much of a problem. The Scorpion is stupidly good with 6x Mass Drivers, but OFC you won't be getting anything to bail with those hehe.

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nponoBegHuk
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Post by nponoBegHuk » Sat, 1. Mar 14, 15:42

On Mass drivers and getting ships to bail - if you use them correctly you can increase your bail chance significantly. Check the videos I just posted in the other thread http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 78#4352278 . Even though I've been making a lot of mistakes (haven't been playing for a while), both ships with above average morale surrendered in ~5 min each with a couple reloads.

If you decide to try this method, I remember that day I jumped into (ex-)Avarice sector and tried to capture every single ship passing through. I ended up capturing ~20 ships straight. I used Tenjin.
Pros:
  • mounts everything you need: PAC, IRE, MD (and PBG aswell, not needed for capture but good when you get swarmed and have to dispach drones or whatever quickly)
  • Good shielding
  • Looks badass
Cons:
  • Needs yaki rep
  • Expensive as hell
  • Slow-ish (182m/s)
Before I got my hands on Tenjin I used Mamba Raider for a while.
Pros:
  • Mounts all the weapons needed
  • Quick (267m/s)
  • Easily obtainable
Cons:
  • Poor shielding
However, you can still get the best of both above mentioned by using Advanced Mamba
Pros:
  • Mounts all the weapons needed
  • Good shielding
  • Quick (265m/s)
Cons:
  • Difficult (annoying?) to get
    SpoilerShow
    Strong Arms Rank 7 reward, or >click this<
EDIT: I didn't actually try to capture anything in Advanced Mamba, but the stats looked great. I'll try using it right now and post feedback shortly.

EDIT:Just spent some time in Xenon Sector south of Zyarth's Dominion trying out Advanced Mamba for capping, and I must say: THAT. WAS. AWESOME! The ship performance is outstanding. Turret placement is great, great speed, tough shields, more than enough laser generator for capturing needs... I wish I tried that ship before.

There were a maximum morale L and maximum morale N among my captures (notice no "bigger ship bonus" on L capture, still he surrendered pretty quickly, despite me being surrounded by 2 Qs while trying to snatch L from under their noses :D ). I've got footage of that trip to xenons recorded, will upload some bits to youtube later.

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Post by Honved » Mon, 3. Mar 14, 17:22

Personally, I tend toward either an Argon Nova Raider or else a Perseus variant in a few games.

The Nova Raider is readily available (although the Pirate versions are pathetically slow and should be sold if you do manage to acquire one), either used ones in various states of repair from random AI pilots or sold new at one or two shipyards. The Nova Raider oddly gets all of the speed advantages of a Raider version without the usual sacrifice of a shield slot. It mounts PRG, PAC, HEPT, Ion-D or PBGs (flamethrower of ultimate destruction), so it can be used in a variety of roles. I prefer 2xPRG (for anti-M5 work and more controllable damage against potential bails), and 6xPAC (for high damage and lower energy drain on slower targets); HEPT works better OOS. It can mount a rear turreted IRE or other weapon to take out pesky inbound missles, carries L size cargo, and goes 185 clicks. Not bad for a "common" ship.

The faster Perseus versions (Ignoring the sluggish base model and Sentinel) range from 190+ to 200+ in speed, can mount PAC, PBG, or PBEs, and generally have decent recharge rates. On the other hand, all but the Advanced are down a shield slot from the Nova (50Mj vs 75Mj), have a smaller than usual cargo bay, and can only take up to M sized cargo. I don't recall whether ALL Perseus versions have a rear turret for missle defense, or only the one's I've used, since I don't fly deathtraps without one (such as the Falcon, Mamba, or Susanowa).

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Post by Nanook » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 00:59

Sinxar wrote:...
I have a question though, why would you cap fighters with Ion Disruptors? Are you aware that using an Ion Disruptor reduces the chance the target will bail (by a lot)? *

Source: Capping mechanics... (Spoilers and even some disassembled code inside) According to this document and game code, using an Ion Disruptor sets the chance of bail at 4% or below. (can be below if the base chance was lower to start with)....
This is for X3 Reunion. I'm pretty sure the code was changed for TC and AP as a result of the code decompilation for Reunion. In fact, I have had quite a few bailouts using ID's in TC and AP using ID's, without even trying. However, the negative aspect of getting bails by ID is that you almost never get anything other than the bare hull. And that's the real reason for not using ID's for this purpose. Oftentimes, the cargo, weapons and shields you end up with in a non-ID bailout are more valuable than the hull. Results may vary. :wink:

In regard to the OP's original post, I would advise using a bigger ship, such as an M6, when going for those rare M3's. The larger the player ship in comparison to the target, the higher the bailout chances. It's one of the modifiers to the RNG.
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Sinxar
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Post by Sinxar » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 02:49

I have yet to see anything that contradicts that in the form of patch notes, code, ingame testing, script testing or official statements that say Ion Disruptors has been unnerfed.

The only info I can find is an obscure post by Cycrow saying the 87% hull thing is not right:

Link to Post: Noob question: how do i force a pilot to eject?
Cycrow wrote:the 87% isn't needed anymore, not in TC/AP

the ejecting happens randomly, you must take down the shields first, then every hit against the hull will have a random chance of them ejecting.

if your trying specifically to get them to eject, then wear down thier ships, and switch out your guns to something less powerful, ie, just 1 gun.
The more hits you get against the hull, the more chance u are of getting the ship
Assuming this is true, you can make any fighter (that has a bail chance) bail simply by using nothing but IDs, as they do 5 hull dmg per zap. To put that in perspective, a PBE does 35 dmg to hull per shot. It would be silly to use anything except IDs to make ships bail. Minimal hull dmg and it removes their ability to fight back so you could just keep the guy locked down forever until he decides to bail or explodes 20 mins later (not sure if they still keep one weapon or not when using IDs).

Do you have some information that we don't know about? If so can you please point me to it?

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Post by Nanook » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 03:33

Sinxar wrote:I have yet to see anything that contradicts that in the form of patch notes, code, ingame testing, script testing or official statements that say Ion Disruptors has been unnerfed...
It wouldn't have been posted in such places if it was normal gameplay for TC and AP. For the history of the 'nerf', in X2, the ID's were massive bailing machines due to the way the code worked. Pretty much if you used an ID on a target ship, it would bail. So the ability to make a ship bail with an ID was changed in an X2 patch. It was later, apparently, incorporated into the release code of Reunion. Then came that thread that was quoted above.

So there's no evidence it was included in the releases of TC/AP, and in fact there's evidence the whole bailing code was revamped as a result of someone dissassembling the old code. I suspect that the ID nerf wasn't even needed as a result. And I highly doubt Egosoft, given their penchant for keeping the game mechanics 'mysterious', would come out and say anything regarding the new code.

In conclusion, my experiences in the latter two games indicates that there's no measurable difference in bail rates with or without ID's. Until it's proven that there is a difference, I'd prefer not to advise people that there is.

EDIT:
Sinxar wrote:...It would be silly to use anything except IDs to make ships bail. ...
Well, not really, as I pointed out above. Using ID's destroys everything on the ship, much faster than any other weapons. They also have the unwanted side effect of hitting passing friendly ships.

Here's how I get ships to bail quickly (when they do):

Use a bigger ship, drop the shields and damage the hull quickly, kill it if it doesn't bail.

PBE's can work, if the bailing RNG is with you, the pilot has a low morale, and you do the above. But I don't find PBE's to be any more effective than other weapons. They just allow you to fire longer, giving it a chance to bail. Same with ID's.

And for the record, I think that quote by Cycrow is wrong. I've never, ever had a ship bail with more than 87% hull. 86% is actually the max I've seen. And I capture hundreds of ships per game.
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Post by nponoBegHuk » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 03:56

Not sure in which way the bail algorithms have changed in TC-AP. However, old methods are still providing consistent bail % and I've yet to see a single bail above 87% hull.

Since I'm not a hacker myself, I just going to do what I can do: postpone my studying session for an hour or two, and test the following scenarios against a ship with lowest morale possible (preferrably M3 for higher hull points) :

1. Attack with conventional lasers but stop all attacks before hull goes below 90%, then reload and try again.
2. Just fry with IDs over couple seconds after the shields are down, then reload.

3. Compare results of 1. and 2. over ~50 reloads each. expected 0 and 0 bails respectively, according to old algorithm.

4. Use conventional lasers to bring target from ~90 to ~85 percent hull. reload afterwards.
5. Use mass driver to predamage hull to ~85%, then fry a target for a couple of seconds after shields are down. reload afterwards.

6. Compare results of 4. and 5. over 50 reloads each (expected around ~12 and 0-1 bails respectively... ).

7. pre-damage hull with MD to 2% hull, use conventional lasers carefully afterwards, trying to damage the hull slightly so it just goes to 1%. reload.
8. same as 7., but use ID for couple of seconds after shields are down. reload.

9: compare results from 7. and 8. expected ~17 and 0-1 bails blah blah blah.

... I'll keep updating this post as long as the new results come in. If someone else wants to contribute by doing one of the same routines just post your results (preferrably vanilla, also state if it's TC or AP).

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Sinxar
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Post by Sinxar » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 04:26

Nanook wrote:Well, not really, as I pointed out above. Using ID's destroys everything on the ship, much faster than any other weapons. They also have the unwanted side effect of hitting passing friendly ships.
Yep they got some side effects, but destroying everything on board is not a major one IMO. Most of the time there is nothing left on board after a bail anyway.

Nanook wrote:And for the record, I think that quote by Cycrow is wrong. I've never, ever had a ship bail with more than 87% hull. 86% is actually the max I've seen. And I capture hundreds of ships per game.
I've never gotten a bail with more than 87% either.
Nanook wrote:In conclusion, my experiences in the latter two games indicates that there's no measurable difference in bail rates with or without ID's. Until it's proven that there is a difference, I'd prefer not to advise people that there is.
Fair enough. I was going by the information posted that has been generally accepted as fact - although not truly proven. I'll refrain from posting about this subject until some real evidence is found on the actual mechanics of bailing.

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nponoBegHuk
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Post by nponoBegHuk » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 05:19

Look two replies above for more details. Will update shortly regarding other scenarios.

Details:

Common:
Game: TC, latest patch + bonus package.
Attacker: Heavy Centaur Prototype
Target: Teladi Falcon (Morale 1)

Scenario 1: target's shields are brought down to ~15%. Afterwards just 2 IRE were used to strip the remaining shields and damage the hull until no less than 89%.
Scenario 2: target's shields are brought down to ~15% with a mix of weapons. Afterwards just 2 ID are used to strip remaining shields and keep "frying" the target for at least 10 seconds.
Scenario 3: the ship from scenario scenario 1 (at ~89%, with remainder of shields removed with IREs) is being attacked further below the 87% mark. At least 4 bails occured not due to the blow which brought hull to 86% or below, but from the next 2-3 shots. Hovever, if the bail didn't occur within the next couple of shots, shooting further was useless (in atleast 14 ocassions I kept shooting for at least 5 seconds straight with no result).
Scenario 4: 2x MD are used to bring the ships hull to 86%. Afterwards, the shields are brought down to ~15% with a mix of weapons, and then the shields are removed with 2x ID and the "frying" is continued for at least 10 seconds. At least 5 of the bails were delayed by 4-5 seconds after the moment the shield dropped. This is different with what I've seen so far with the conventional lasers. The bail percentage is exceptionally high too. My theory is that ID have similar bail % to conventional lasers, but most of the shots just get ignored (with no bail check conducted), that is why bail can happen 4-5 sec into attempt.
Scenario 5:The target hull is brought to below 2.5% (exactly 298 out of 12000 hit points, ~2,48%) using MD.Afterwards, the shield is brought down to ~15 using mix of weapons. Following that, 2x IRE are used to strip the remaining shield and keep attacking the target. At least 3 captures happened before the hull actually took damage (confirmed 298 hull points in target info window after ship bailed). All bails occured either as soon as the shield was stripped, or just before that. If the bail didn't occur at 0% shield, shooting the ship further was pointless in all cases. I kept shooting each time until the ship was destroyed.
Scenario 6:The ship prepared for scenario 5 (at 2.48% hull and 15% shields) is being attacked with 2x ID instead for at least 10 seconds after the shield drops to 0%. All of the bails happened as soon as the shield dropped to 0-1%. If the bail didn't happen within 1 second of that, it was pointless to keep shooting. I kept shooting for at least 10 seconds more in each one of such attempts to check.

Code: Select all

Scenario        | Attempts | Bails | Average bail % | Expected bails | expected bail %
1. Laser, 90+   | 52       | 0     | 0              | 0              | 0              
2.I D, 90+      | 11       | 0     | 0              | 0              | 0              
3. Laser, 88-86 | 50       | 19    | 38             | 19             | 27             
4. ID, <=86     | 50       | 10    | 20             | 0,54           | 1,08           
5. Laser, 2%    | 50       | 16    | 32             | 18,5           | 37             
6. ID, 2%       | 50       | 26    | 52             | 0,74           | 1,48           
So, unless RNG went crazy at those ID attempts, it's the best method so far to get low-morale ship to bail in vanilla 3.2c TC.

These are the results for scenario 5 and 6, but attacking a Yaki Susanowa with 30 morale at 153 hull points (2.18%):

Code: Select all

Scenario        | Attempts | Bails | Average bail % | Expected bails | expected bail %
5. Laser, 2%    | 15       | 0     | 0              | 0,9            | 6              
6. ID, 2%       | 15       | 1     | 6,67           | 0,036          | 0,24           
Have to go to work now. Will finish this after.
Last edited by nponoBegHuk on Tue, 4. Mar 14, 17:32, edited 12 times in total.

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Sinxar
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Post by Sinxar » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 05:50

Does a M3+ count as a larger class than a normal M3?

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Post by Lea Flamma » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 16:43

So if the IDs work as any other weapon they are good to go for bailing operations. Good to know.

I wasn't aware that the whole mechanism behind bailing was so complex. So technically the best solution would be to grab an M6 or bigger which can use IDs in it's main guns and maybe turrets as a bonus. So from M6s they are Centaurs and Hydras. Not much of a choice. Or the cool True Light Seeker :roll:

As for the equipment, I do not really care about it. It will be lost during REing those ships either way. I just want to be able to build all those "not-available" to purchase ships in the game. So far I have somewhere around 15-17 stored in PTNI HQ Trading Station. This includes full Xenon and Kha'k fighter force as well as some Pirate variants of regular ships.
Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom.

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Post by nponoBegHuk » Tue, 4. Mar 14, 16:52

Lea Flamma wrote:I just want to be able to build all those "not-available" to purchase ships in the game.
Are you aware of all that one-time chance to get ships you should be on the lookout for? There are at least 4 ships which were patched out but you still can keep them if you capture then in early patches. I did some research time ago, check the link in my signature.

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