For those who dont know, a trading loop is a supply chain of factories which produces and end "product" which is then sold to the AI Factories.
If you want a basic walkthough of how to set up a fledgling loop starting from an existing Solar Power Plant please take a look at the Beginners Guide located here:
http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34979
The biggest single incentive to create loops is the wealth they generate, which is around 100,000 credits per hour *irrespective* of what product you produce, provided you that your product is always sold out.
Thats a Million Credits an hour on SETA, and you can construct a simple loop complete with freighters for as little as 7 Million!
A SPP "double loop" has a theoretical maximum of some 215,000 credits per hour, and very realistically generates 187,680 selling at 20 credits. The setup cost for this is around 10 million credits making it the most rewarding return on investment where a market for energy exists.
Loops have several huge advantages over single factory placement which are as follows:
1. Your factories never run out of resources.
2. They require no remote management after being initially set up
3. All profits are retained by you rather than money leaking out to AI fabs.
Additionally Sector Defence is a major cost, and because you decide the placement of all factories within your loop, you can minimize the number of sectors you need to defend.
With the exception of Energy as an end product, a loops have a common core of factories which are
1 Crystal Fab
1 Silicon Mine
1 Primary Food (Argnu Beef)
1 Secondary Food (Cahoonas)
1 Solar Power Plant.
All these factories trade exclusively to you; but if you are not using scripts - the only way to ensure that happens is to make sure all your fabs undercut the prices of the AI competition.
This is actually a good thing because it means that your product factory ends up with most all the profit; and its easier to harvest 1 factory than the 8 or 9 factories you will have eventually constructed.
Recommended and tested pricing to achieve this is as follows:
Energy Cells -12 credits
Crystals sell-1592 credits
Silicon - 300 credits
Argnu Beef-61 credits
Meatstake Cahoonas-71 credits.
You may occasionally find yourself accidentally trading with the AI, but it doesnt matter all that much.
Now you have established you kernel of factories, you can decide what you want to produce. This is a decision you should base solely around what nearby trading and equipment docks will purchase from you at close to maximum price.
Some good working examples for early on are Drones and Squash Mines in Seizewell.
Almost without exception, a product requires Silicon or Ore, and Food.
Using Drones as an example you will need:
1 Drone Fab
1 Scruffin Farm
1 Massom Mill.
1 Silicon Mine.
Note that you now have a total of 8 factories which consume energy and 1 SPP supplying them. This works fine.
For selling energy, the setup is slightly different.
1 SPP which sells just to you
1 which sells openly
and the following
2 Silicon Mines
2 Crystal Fabs
2 Primary Food
2 Secondary Food.
I mentioned earlier that you should aim to trade with equipment docks and trading stations.
The reason for this is that all wealth in the X Universe is created by goods disappearing out of these facts into the universe bringing in cash which then fuels the supply chains that produce those goods. Everything that happens within those supply chains is a money go round.
Therefore if you want to obtain the maximum wealth a sector has to offer, you should aim to monopolise all trade with equipment docks and trading stations because they are in fact the only sources that add wealth into the X-economy. When you have captured all trade from these stations then you are earning the maximum possible money the X Universe can offer you from trade.
In Summary
Money->Equipment Dock->Weapons/Missiles etc->Supporting Fabs
which in turns empties weapons and missiles etc into the X Universe creating wealth.
With this strategy I have constructed some 326 factories, none of which flash orange except in the very rare event that I lose a freighter, and Im well on my way to being an X-Treme trader (Professional Magnate 80% - would be more if i didnt leave the puter on overnight!!) my net worth is probably around 5 billion CR, 400M of which is cash at bank!!
Good Profitssss to you all!
Advanced Guide To Trading Loops
Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum
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twilight_echoes
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Advanced Guide To Trading Loops
Last edited by twilight_echoes on Mon, 15. Mar 04, 11:56, edited 4 times in total.
It's a good guide, I just don't see why you'd set up EIGHT factories, plus, what, 14 or 15 ships, to sell ONE product? If you set those eight fabs up all by themselves, they'd make probably at least two to three times the money you make from that loop, right?
Not meant to slam you or anything, I just fail to see the purpose of setting up a loop if all you do is use it to make profit.
Setting up a loop to manufacture shields or weapons for yourself for free, that I can understand.
Still, good guide, nice, explicit and to the point.
Creston
Edit : Oh, ok, never mind, I read through your post again, and kinda failed to really grasp this part
Is that verified btw, that ONLY equipment docks and trading stations actually CREATE wealth? Seems kinda odd to me..
Not meant to slam you or anything, I just fail to see the purpose of setting up a loop if all you do is use it to make profit.
Setting up a loop to manufacture shields or weapons for yourself for free, that I can understand.
Still, good guide, nice, explicit and to the point.
Creston
Edit : Oh, ok, never mind, I read through your post again, and kinda failed to really grasp this part
the first time.Therefore if you want to obtain the maximum wealth a sector has to offer, you should aim to monopolise all trade with equipment docks and trading stations because they are in fact the only sources that add wealth into the X-economy. When you have captured all trade from these stations then you are earning the maximum possible money the X Universe can offer you from trade.
Is that verified btw, that ONLY equipment docks and trading stations actually CREATE wealth? Seems kinda odd to me..
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twilight_echoes
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twilight_echoes
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Re Trading and equipment docks - Im pretty certain on this one. Ive read it in the "economy is broken" thread which has mods contributing, and more vaguely ive studied who trades with my weapon and missile facts and it is always a ship owned by a trading station or equipment dock.
Then study the inventories of those docks and you will notice that products simply disappear without ships landing over time, as well as legitimately moving from dock to dock (i.e. boron equipment dock buys missiles from argon equipment dock)
In any case its about the only way the economy can work and heres why:
If weapons and shields do NOT disappear into the X-Universe; then nothing can create the wealth at all. The equipment docks would stock up on missiles and sit on full inventory, then everything else would stock to capacity and the whole thing would grind to a halt on full inventory.
It could also work by independent fighters shopping for wares at fabs, but ive never seen this happen, and even if it does happen; the broad point is unchanged. Only by manufacturing goods which the X Universe sucks up like a vacuum can you capture all possible wealth.
Then study the inventories of those docks and you will notice that products simply disappear without ships landing over time, as well as legitimately moving from dock to dock (i.e. boron equipment dock buys missiles from argon equipment dock)
In any case its about the only way the economy can work and heres why:
If weapons and shields do NOT disappear into the X-Universe; then nothing can create the wealth at all. The equipment docks would stock up on missiles and sit on full inventory, then everything else would stock to capacity and the whole thing would grind to a halt on full inventory.
It could also work by independent fighters shopping for wares at fabs, but ive never seen this happen, and even if it does happen; the broad point is unchanged. Only by manufacturing goods which the X Universe sucks up like a vacuum can you capture all possible wealth.
I have a hybrid loop/market system throughout my game:
e.g. Herron's Nebula I have the following stations:
Set to not trade, minimum buy/sell (except SPP with 11 sell) and to 0 jumps:
SPP
Cattle ranch
Cahoona bakery
Crystal fab
Set to public trade & 2 jumps:
SPP with 2 Boron TP selling at 19 and 1 TP buying at average price
Cattle ranch selling at average (to stimulate weak NPC market) buying energy at 12
Cahoona bakery selling at max price, buying energy at 12 and beef at near bottom price
Crystal fab selling passively (no trader) at max, buying energy at 12, silicon at 300 and meatsteaks at ner bottom.
Silicon selling at 650 and buying energy at 12
That setup ensures that I get no flashing lights at any station and that enough products are being sold off to stimulate the NPC market into selling me the stuff I need at bottom prices.
The difference from the closed loop system is that I sell 1 SPP's energy at at least 19 (usually 20+) and buy it back at maximum 12 from the NPC SPPs that don't have active "push" traders. I have factories in the nearby sectors that take the SPP "slack" from my private SPP ensuring it sits at nearly 0 all the time!
This also allows me to sell my silicon at 650 per piece and buy it back at 300 giving a huge net profit of 350. Admittedly this is not too profitable due to the slow production speed of the mine but significantly better than nothing....
My open crystal fab makes a huge profit from buying low/selling high and the other factories (ranch, bakery) have paid back their worth slowly but invaluably through keeping the NPC market turning over despite my extra supplies on the market.
Once I can be bothered, I'll start to do the weapons, etc bit but I'm not too bothered as I'm racking up the cash without it!
e.g. Herron's Nebula I have the following stations:
Set to not trade, minimum buy/sell (except SPP with 11 sell) and to 0 jumps:
SPP
Cattle ranch
Cahoona bakery
Crystal fab
Set to public trade & 2 jumps:
SPP with 2 Boron TP selling at 19 and 1 TP buying at average price
Cattle ranch selling at average (to stimulate weak NPC market) buying energy at 12
Cahoona bakery selling at max price, buying energy at 12 and beef at near bottom price
Crystal fab selling passively (no trader) at max, buying energy at 12, silicon at 300 and meatsteaks at ner bottom.
Silicon selling at 650 and buying energy at 12
That setup ensures that I get no flashing lights at any station and that enough products are being sold off to stimulate the NPC market into selling me the stuff I need at bottom prices.
The difference from the closed loop system is that I sell 1 SPP's energy at at least 19 (usually 20+) and buy it back at maximum 12 from the NPC SPPs that don't have active "push" traders. I have factories in the nearby sectors that take the SPP "slack" from my private SPP ensuring it sits at nearly 0 all the time!
This also allows me to sell my silicon at 650 per piece and buy it back at 300 giving a huge net profit of 350. Admittedly this is not too profitable due to the slow production speed of the mine but significantly better than nothing....
My open crystal fab makes a huge profit from buying low/selling high and the other factories (ranch, bakery) have paid back their worth slowly but invaluably through keeping the NPC market turning over despite my extra supplies on the market.
Once I can be bothered, I'll start to do the weapons, etc bit but I'm not too bothered as I'm racking up the cash without it!
I agree with that statement completely, but I also see it in a different light. I think the above explanation is a prime example of why the economy is badly broken. In all real economy for high end products, say BMWs or F16s or GeForce cardstwilight_echoes wrote:If weapons and shields do NOT disappear into the X-Universe; then nothing can create the wealth at all. The equipment docks would stock up on missiles and sit on full inventory, then everything else would stock to capacity and the whole thing would grind to a halt on full inventory.
, there is a solid and continuous demand/consumption for those things. But in the X universe an Equipment Dock can only hold a whopping TWO GHEPT cannons. And those items often sit in the Dock for days on end. There is extremely little to no consumption on some of the very high end goods. YOU the player seems to be the only driving force, which is ridiculous in a universe where there are billions of people in each sector.Equipment Dock and high end factories should be able to store many many more of those items, and at the same time those items need to 'vanish' in a much faster way. I have seen way too many Weapon Factories, 125mw shield factories with its maximum of 2 items in stock and the entire factory sitting there with its thumb up its nose.
Low end products in the real world should function like a pyramid (like that picture in the manual) which allows the player to build high level factories which (supposedly should) make the most profit. But in this game it is backward. The high end factories are there to artificially create a VERY SLOW demand for the basic resources. It simply isn't how things work in the real world. I remember reading the guy who wrote the Ultimate Guide to SPP and he mentioned that the pyramid in this game is actually upside down. I couldn't agree more!
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twilight_echoes
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In a rather bizarre way the economy is linear.
1 SPP + supply chain will produce 1 product.
There is a lot of misconception about SPPs (IMO) because people see them as an end product, and generally they are the most profitable thing to build early in game. Energy is not an end product, it is a resource necessary to produce an end product. By openly selling energy you in fact fuel the supply chains that enable the AI to produce end products thereby limiting (ultimately) your own earning potential.
Also SPP trading has limited scope. After you have built maybe 10 in strategic locations what next? You cant keep building them; either the crystal supply fails or your overproduction pushes prices down to the a point where its worthless to continue building them. Then you compete with the AI on product but you have fixed the AIs shortages so you are again limited on what you can sell. Plus you have used up vital silicon in supplying the AI market and thus effectively hammered your own potential to maximise profit in that area.
Worse still, the demand for your power is generated by the AIs ability to sell its own end products - which it doesnt exactly excel at; so whilst mathematically a SPP can make maybe 80k an hour and a loop 100k - when you are meeting the demands of a sector the AI invariable bottlenecks creating downtime.
You only have to look at the sectors where SPPs work as standalones to see why. Kingdoms end produces shields, missiles and GPACs. The nearby sectors produce more end products - so yes your single solar power plant can supply 4 or 5 product chains - it *should* only support 1 - because the AI is hopeless at selling its own products.
If you *duplicate* the AI factorys and sell the stuff yourself, you would have not 1 but 4 loops - creating a 400k per hour profit through forced sales rather than your 1SPP creating maybe 80k an hour. (i dont actually advocate this strategy, but can be useful - i prefer to let the AI buy from me at top dollar stuff that it actually needs)
There is a limit on how much can be produced, fixed firstly by the availability of silicon, as this is the only finite resource required to produce energy; which can then be used to produce everything else aside from ore.
Which is the second limiting factor.
The Maximum possible money the X Universe can produce per hour is roughly
100,000 x (total silicon yield/25) summed over all sectors.
All product fabs selling at or near top dollar produce 100ks worth of goods per hour.
The demand within the economy may not support that *however* it is achievable through forced sales to equipment docks.
1 SPP + supply chain will produce 1 product.
There is a lot of misconception about SPPs (IMO) because people see them as an end product, and generally they are the most profitable thing to build early in game. Energy is not an end product, it is a resource necessary to produce an end product. By openly selling energy you in fact fuel the supply chains that enable the AI to produce end products thereby limiting (ultimately) your own earning potential.
Also SPP trading has limited scope. After you have built maybe 10 in strategic locations what next? You cant keep building them; either the crystal supply fails or your overproduction pushes prices down to the a point where its worthless to continue building them. Then you compete with the AI on product but you have fixed the AIs shortages so you are again limited on what you can sell. Plus you have used up vital silicon in supplying the AI market and thus effectively hammered your own potential to maximise profit in that area.
Worse still, the demand for your power is generated by the AIs ability to sell its own end products - which it doesnt exactly excel at; so whilst mathematically a SPP can make maybe 80k an hour and a loop 100k - when you are meeting the demands of a sector the AI invariable bottlenecks creating downtime.
You only have to look at the sectors where SPPs work as standalones to see why. Kingdoms end produces shields, missiles and GPACs. The nearby sectors produce more end products - so yes your single solar power plant can supply 4 or 5 product chains - it *should* only support 1 - because the AI is hopeless at selling its own products.
If you *duplicate* the AI factorys and sell the stuff yourself, you would have not 1 but 4 loops - creating a 400k per hour profit through forced sales rather than your 1SPP creating maybe 80k an hour. (i dont actually advocate this strategy, but can be useful - i prefer to let the AI buy from me at top dollar stuff that it actually needs)
There is a limit on how much can be produced, fixed firstly by the availability of silicon, as this is the only finite resource required to produce energy; which can then be used to produce everything else aside from ore.
Which is the second limiting factor.
The Maximum possible money the X Universe can produce per hour is roughly
100,000 x (total silicon yield/25) summed over all sectors.
All product fabs selling at or near top dollar produce 100ks worth of goods per hour.
The demand within the economy may not support that *however* it is achievable through forced sales to equipment docks.
Last edited by twilight_echoes on Mon, 15. Mar 04, 06:52, edited 2 times in total.
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twilight_echoes
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skinycracker
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Equipment Dock will buy and thing you have on your ship so far that i see like hornet missile but they will not sell them back to you so if you get a weapons fact and you produce 2 and sell them for 2,000,000 each and just start over and over agian appc sell for that much i think and you have 8 fact geting supplys just to that fact that 100% profite i don't know if that will work or not
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Deleted User
I usually don't post but I have had this burning question for some time now. WHY? Why loops? I established quite a few in my first games and it was such a waste! Huge investment in ships in factories to have one factory exposed to outside world? I have 32 factories, only 4 of them do not trade with other races and I make $18M an hour on seta. Oh, yeah. Sometimes they are flashing yellow, but who cares? Could anyone explain to me what's the point?
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twilight_echoes
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Early in the game loops are certainly *not* the best return for your critical investments in factories. You are far better off looking to buy cheap and sell high within the existing trade grid.
Later in the game you may start to ask yourself "what is the maximum profit i can make from this sector"
You may also ask yourself "how the heck can I micromanage 300 factories what a nightmare"
When these questions come up; its time to start looping.
A single product loop will reliably at best make you about 110,000Cr per hour for 8 factories which on the surface doesnt *seem* very good. The balance to this is (and on this im guessing slightly) the maximum ***yield** per trading station and equipment dock is probably round 600k an hour. When you have captured all (or most) of that money; then you are doing as well as you possibly can do in that area of space.
Later in the game you may start to ask yourself "what is the maximum profit i can make from this sector"
You may also ask yourself "how the heck can I micromanage 300 factories what a nightmare"
When these questions come up; its time to start looping.
A single product loop will reliably at best make you about 110,000Cr per hour for 8 factories which on the surface doesnt *seem* very good. The balance to this is (and on this im guessing slightly) the maximum ***yield** per trading station and equipment dock is probably round 600k an hour. When you have captured all (or most) of that money; then you are doing as well as you possibly can do in that area of space.
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Deleted User
110,000? Sorry, but my single silicon factory, which is the least profitable of my factories that I established only to support my crystal fabs, make more than that! I am not sure about times here but I usually play 2 - 3 hours after work (I switch to SETA only during the flight) and in the end I collect around 12 - 15 million from my 32 factories. As for micromanagement, I do not manage them at all, they just run.
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twilight_echoes
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All product fabs have a maximum revenue of their maximum selling price multiplied by the number of products they produce in an hour; which turns out to be around 100k *except* silicon and ore
For these two; the maximum is 100k x (yield/25)
Subtract from this the cost of raw materials and you are left with profit per game hour - no SETA involved.
A loop has zero cost of production but the only factory which generates wealth is the end product that you sell. That wealth manifests itself across all your fabs, proportionately to how you set your pricing.
I dont dispute that a couple of individual factories can be more profitable than a loop; but there is a limit to how far one can go fitting into the existing trade grid; and fitting into the existing trade grid doesnt maximize revenue. It does maximise return on investment.
Over time it is far more important to maximize revenue than ROI because there is a limit upon how many products can be produced imposed by the amount of available silicon.
The first part of the post outlines why loops maximise revenue.
The fabs that buy your silicon use it to make a number of further resources such as crystals, fighting drones and so on - which supply the AI chain which produces products which are then sold. This is revenue that you are losing out on because you are not doing it yourself.
For these two; the maximum is 100k x (yield/25)
Subtract from this the cost of raw materials and you are left with profit per game hour - no SETA involved.
A loop has zero cost of production but the only factory which generates wealth is the end product that you sell. That wealth manifests itself across all your fabs, proportionately to how you set your pricing.
I dont dispute that a couple of individual factories can be more profitable than a loop; but there is a limit to how far one can go fitting into the existing trade grid; and fitting into the existing trade grid doesnt maximize revenue. It does maximise return on investment.
Over time it is far more important to maximize revenue than ROI because there is a limit upon how many products can be produced imposed by the amount of available silicon.
The first part of the post outlines why loops maximise revenue.
The fabs that buy your silicon use it to make a number of further resources such as crystals, fighting drones and so on - which supply the AI chain which produces products which are then sold. This is revenue that you are losing out on because you are not doing it yourself.
2. They require no remote management after being initially set up
UM how do you figure a loop requires no micromanagement--all i see is at least 15 freighters u have to micromanage shown here.Im blonde
http://www.aeonflux.co.uk/sf_df.gif
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twilight_echoes
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All those freighters trade between within your loop buying resources at fixed prices solely from you. And those resources are always available because the loop is entirely self sufficient.
The only management input required is when the fabs are laid down to begin with - to get them stocked up, and setting the price of the product you sell.
After that; you can just forget about it and periodically harvest the profits.
Freighter losses excluded - but with decent OOS defence those are rare. Not using SETA i lose about 1 for every 5 hours gameplay with about 800 mantas operating.
The only management input required is when the fabs are laid down to begin with - to get them stocked up, and setting the price of the product you sell.
After that; you can just forget about it and periodically harvest the profits.
Freighter losses excluded - but with decent OOS defence those are rare. Not using SETA i lose about 1 for every 5 hours gameplay with about 800 mantas operating.
No maybe you missed what im saying .You still have to give a command to your ships to trade among themselves now only every 30 secs because there so close together instead of say every 2 minutes compared to a solo plant.Thats what i mean by micromanagement.LOL funny thing is i budget money everyday yet this economy 
.You still have to give a command to your ships to trade among themselves now only every 30 secs because there so close together instead of say every 2 minutes compared to a solo plant.Thats what i mean by micromanagement.LOL funny thing is i budget money everyday yet this economy -
twilight_echoes
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Im sorry i dont understand. All i do is set my freighters to "buy ware for best price" - and set my loop factories not to trade with other races, having chosen prices which almost always ensure that my freighters will trade with my own factories. Some examples of the values used are given in the first section.
Unless this has changed radically in 1.3 all you need for that is to install the trade command software, assign you freighte to whatever factory as a homebase and off it goes to do its thing from that moment forward.
Unless this has changed radically in 1.3 all you need for that is to install the trade command software, assign you freighte to whatever factory as a homebase and off it goes to do its thing from that moment forward.