Mobile factories?

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stilgarpl
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Mobile factories?

Post by stilgarpl » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 02:41

I, myself, love the idea of having everything on my ships. Battlestar Galactica, Migrant Fleet (Mass Effect) or Vasari Loyalists (Sins of Solar Empire).

I don't care if those ships are super-slow (wasn't Aran supposed to be a space factory - repair facility?), cost a lot of money (even more than stationary version) and have lower efficiency than stationary version. I want to be able to just move my factories to another location - perfect for producing Space-Meth or whatever drugs we will have in Rebirth :)

In X3:AP I often found myself in a situation, where I wanted to blow some Argons up (or other race), but I didn't, because I had factories in their space and they would blow them up.

I'm sure mobile factories won't be in Rebirth at release (maybe pirate factions will have one or two - the pirate bases in X3 were supposed to be ships), but I think the idea is great and they should be added later, by Ego or modders.

What do you think?
Last edited by stilgarpl on Tue, 17. Sep 13, 02:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CutterJohn1 » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 02:54

The ability to be more nomadic would indeed be interesting. I'm betting this is something modders will have to contend with though. I recall there was a fun mod in X3TC that enabled installing, I believe, 6 factories into a TL. It was quite cool to be able to send a factory to a region to provide goods, then move it out when demand shifted or the police showed up.

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Post by Slyvers » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 03:39

Personally I would like to be able to do on the move, at great expense versus stationary:

Refit and re-arm capital ships, missiles, modules, engines, etc.
Capture and re-use pilots to fly my captured ships
Ability to build drone swarms, because I like them
Missiles, this could be interesting as they are rather complex materials


I would like to see a dedicated repair ship, mods have attempted to do so in the past, but an official *weapon/drones* to do so would be quite refreshing in my opinion.

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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 17:29

I don't think there'll be mobile factories for several reasons, but the bigger capital ships might be more versatile and better able to function as a home base... Here's hoping!
In X3:AP I often found myself in a situation, where I wanted to blow some Argons up (or other race), but I didn't, because I had factories in their space and they would blow them up.
You'll have more capability to do this in Rebirth, since hostility will be localized and less absolute.

So you could blow up some particular Argons without necessarily turning the entire race hostile.

It's unclear how seperate corporations will be from government factions though...
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Earth Ultimatum IV.
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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 18:43

Sandalpocalypse wrote:I don't think there'll be mobile factories for several reasons, but the bigger capital ships might be more versatile and better able to function as a home base... Here's hoping!
In X3:AP I often found myself in a situation, where I wanted to blow some Argons up (or other race), but I didn't, because I had factories in their space and they would blow them up.
You'll have more capability to do this in Rebirth, since hostility will be localized and less absolute.

So you could blow up some particular Argons without necessarily turning the entire race hostile.

It's unclear how seperate corporations will be from government factions though...
If you destroy a ship in X Rebirth without whitnesses, you will not lose reputation (I heard).

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 18:55

Earth ultimatum IV. wrote:If you destroy a ship in X Rebirth without whitnesses, you will not lose reputation (I heard).
I think that relates to the difference between local and global reputation.

That is, you can wreck your local rep, but that isn't reflected in global rep until they can actually talk to their fellows - kill them first, and you stop that reporting from happening.

(Of course, that raises the question of what happened to instant communication through Adv Sat networks...)

The question is, what sort of activity does it take to report something? Hypothetically, you could blast a whole zone without anyone getting out alive, but if merely being within 10 km range of a station is what it takes to report something, then attacking stations always reports what you are doing.

If that were the case, and you had a nomad base like the Aran was supposed to be, then it'd make sense if they were the ones that had to be reported to, and could impact global rep if attacked.

---

Also, on the topic of X3, you can blow some Argons up without turning them red to you, so long as your destruction is limited, and you repair your rep afterwards.

You can attack and board an enemy ship, for example, and only turn members of that faction red in that one sector until you jump everything out, so long as your rep is good enough. I don't even tell my freighters to stop trading unless they're in the sector in question.

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Post by Valadis » Tue, 17. Sep 13, 19:16

Interesting, I never considered building a galactic "ice cream truck" type of company. Now all I need is space weed flavor for the Teladi and I'll be rich. RICH!

Yes, mobile factories sound fun.

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Earth Ultimatum IV.
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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Wed, 18. Sep 13, 16:30

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Earth ultimatum IV. wrote:If you destroy a ship in X Rebirth without whitnesses, you will not lose reputation (I heard).
I think that relates to the difference between local and global reputation.

That is, you can wreck your local rep, but that isn't reflected in global rep until they can actually talk to their fellows - kill them first, and you stop that reporting from happening.

(Of course, that raises the question of what happened to instant communication through Adv Sat networks...)

The question is, what sort of activity does it take to report something? Hypothetically, you could blast a whole zone without anyone getting out alive, but if merely being within 10 km range of a station is what it takes to report something, then attacking stations always reports what you are doing.

If that were the case, and you had a nomad base like the Aran was supposed to be, then it'd make sense if they were the ones that had to be reported to, and could impact global rep if attacked.

---

Also, on the topic of X3, you can blow some Argons up without turning them red to you, so long as your destruction is limited, and you repair your rep afterwards.

You can attack and board an enemy ship, for example, and only turn members of that faction red in that one sector until you jump everything out, so long as your rep is good enough. I don't even tell my freighters to stop trading unless they're in the sector in question.

No. It is DEFINITELY meant to be a global reputation.
It is probably implemented in the game to help players who play as smugglers/assassins. You will no longer wreck your rep if somebody scans your cargo while smuggling, if you kill him and the whitnesses, for example.

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Post by Rabiator der II. » Wed, 18. Sep 13, 17:26

Earth ultimatum IV. wrote:No. It is DEFINITELY meant to be a global reputation.
It is probably implemented in the game to help players who play as smugglers/assassins. You will no longer wreck your rep if somebody scans your cargo while smuggling, if you kill him and the whitnesses, for example.
Interesting for pirates too. Capture a ship without being observed doing it and get away with it :twisted:
Gazz in the LT forum:
In X3, piracy is not implemented at all. All the "pirates" that fly around are bands of roaming psychopaths that destroy everything they see without even trying to loot anything.

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Post by SuperG » Wed, 18. Sep 13, 19:02

Well mobile factory make sense espacialy if mining large astroids it easier to move the factory mining rig to the astroid then visa versa.

Of cource there is a option for some special class ships.

Cityships
Mother ships.

This means these ships have facilities expecting of the kind a city has.
In short a city within a ship. A mother ship extend on this. It has everything so it is independand and has every facility a advance civilisation needs with in its ship. Expect such ships to be huge a league above capital.

The smallest limited kind would be similar to a naval living boat. In space you need biosphere on it large enough for those people who live there. So could be easaly 10 times bigger then naval counter part. Livingship could be docked on specialised star bases who have service for long time docking. Like a camping site. But then in space.

Or a full independed vessel wich could be free in space for several years.

But I think this depth is much extremer feature creep.

Mother ship.
Has more a smal nation the size of a big city.
Living space and industral section. Recrational section.
Food sector en tech sector and full ultility section and the military. Alse shipyard and a starbase section.

Could dock multiple cruisers and much more.

Thats a huge feature to implement
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Earth Ultimatum IV.
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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 09:47

SuperG wrote:Mother ship.
You mean Goner Aran, from older X games, don´t you? :)

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 18:00

Or basically any of the capital ships. Boron ships in particular are like 6 km long, 1.5 km tall, and 1.5 km wide.

That's like a 1,000-story tall skyscraper... that's four times longer than it is tall. You could EASILY fit a mid-sized city into that kind of space.

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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 18:23

BTW did anybody notice that there was a legalised space fuel destilery station in one of the X Rebirth videos?

That would mean that you can now produce space fuel without it being illegal.


But... legal space fuel? It sounds nice.
However what if there is only legal spacefuel... what if illegal spacefuel is LACKING? What will those players who used to smuggle it and build huge complexes do now?

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Post by SuperG » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 18:37

Earth ultimatum IV. wrote:
SuperG wrote:Mother ship.
You mean Goner Aran, from older X games, don´t you? :)
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Post by BigBANGtheory » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 19:59

The concept of mobile factories and a mothership is sound, but I see no point in doing that until (or bundled with) we have access to RTS controls for a fleet through a tactical interface.

I don't see the point in building/owning a fleet of ships until you have the means to control, organise and manage them properly. Once you can though (thinking positively here), then mobile factories become a very interesting proposition indeed.

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Post by stilgarpl » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 21:12

While self-sufficient city ships sound like a nice idea, wouldn't they be boring? It's a money (or other resources) producing ship. Why build anything else? Just get enough of them and you "won".


I agree, without RTS controls commanding fleet of hundred capitals will be a pain in the...
But, I think we can work this out even if it isn't there. They mentioned that you can assign ships to other ships. Just make a tree command structore of your factories and defense ships and you only have to give orders to leader. "Move there", "Mine everything in that sector".

I would really like locust-type mining :) Swarm sector with my ships, get everything of value and kill everyone who doesn't like it. While on the move, build more ships and supplies(missiles) in my mobile factories. Attack another sector. :)

Exactly like Vasari Loyalists in Sins of Solar Empire :) (We can skip blowing up planets...)

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 22:55

stilgarpl wrote:While self-sufficient city ships sound like a nice idea, wouldn't they be boring? It's a money (or other resources) producing ship. Why build anything else? Just get enough of them and you "won".
As opposed to the self-sufficient space station complexes that practically print money along with all the free resources you could ever need?

There are plenty of ways to balance it, and balance it more than complexes ever were.

For starters, don't make ships self-sufficient. So long as all factories (including the mobile base ships, presumably,) need energy cells, and there isn't a solar array ship that keeps producing e-cells everywhere it goes, you're not only still tied to a station somewhere, but you have to have a big supply chain of freighters constantly shipping in new e-cells.

Presumably, we're mainly dealing with mining ships being the mobile ones. Maybe a food ship or two. Without complexing, though, that means having to CLS every friggin' little thing. That's got to introduce some supply hiccups somewhere down the line, and introduces vulnerabilities to pirates or xenon or other threats.

Beyond all that, there's just plain making mobile ships much, much more expensive, take longer to produce anything, or generally not being as profitable as a normal station.

Why build a 50-million credit ship to produce argnu beef when a cattle ranch station only costs a half mil?

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Post by Aragosnat » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 23:15

Wraith_Magus wrote: Why build a 50-million credit ship to produce argnu beef when a cattle ranch station only costs a half mil?
That is if the price differance is that great. It could end up being the oposite. Where the station cost more then the ship. Or they could be closer in price. Where the main differance would be the size of the storage area and limit of what can be produced to as well as shield strength and weapons power.

Still will be something to look forewards to from the modders if it is not possable at start.
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Post by stilgarpl » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 23:33

Wraith_Magus wrote:
stilgarpl wrote:While self-sufficient city ships sound like a nice idea, wouldn't they be boring? It's a money (or other resources) producing ship. Why build anything else? Just get enough of them and you "won".
As opposed to the self-sufficient space station complexes that practically print money along with all the free resources you could ever need?
I only meant mobile space cities, not mobile factories in general. And all factories in X3 were just that, money-printing machines. It didn't even have to be self-sustaining complex.
Wraith_Magus wrote:

There are plenty of ways to balance it, and balance it more than complexes ever were.

For starters, don't make ships self-sufficient. So long as all factories (including the mobile base ships, presumably,) need energy cells, and there isn't a solar array ship that keeps producing e-cells everywhere it goes, you're not only still tied to a station somewhere, but you have to have a big supply chain of freighters constantly shipping in new e-cells.
What's the point of having mobile factory ships if you still need stationary factories?
Wraith_Magus wrote: Presumably, we're mainly dealing with mining ships being the mobile ones. Maybe a food ship or two. Without complexing, though, that means having to CLS every friggin' little thing. That's got to introduce some supply hiccups somewhere down the line, and introduces vulnerabilities to pirates or xenon or other threats.
With the new ship AI and NPCs, you don't need to configure CLS. Just assing smaller ships to factory-ships and they should act like CAGs (at least I got that impression from what Bernd said)
Wraith_Magus wrote: Beyond all that, there's just plain making mobile ships much, much more expensive, take longer to produce anything, or generally not being as profitable as a normal station.

Why build a 50-million credit ship to produce argnu beef when a cattle ranch station only costs a half mil?
For role-playing reasons. :) I don't care how much it costs, I want to have self-sufficient fleet (+ mobile mining, I won't tow asteroids with me...).
It's bad if you want to establish space trade empire, but for pirate factions, this should be a way to go.

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Thu, 19. Sep 13, 23:46

Aragosnat wrote:That is if the price differance is that great. It could end up being the oposite. Where the station cost more then the ship. Or they could be closer in price. Where the main differance would be the size of the storage area and limit of what can be produced to as well as shield strength and weapons power.
There's no reason the cap ship with a factory glued to it would cost less than the factory alone.

After all, the strategic and role-playing reasons for wanting a mobile ship can outweigh price concerns. See:
stilgarpl wrote:For role-playing reasons. :) I don't care how much it costs, I want to have self-sufficient fleet (+ mobile mining, I won't tow asteroids with me...).
It's bad if you want to establish space trade empire, but for pirate factions, this should be a way to go.
As with the original background reason for the Aran - people kept blowing the Goner stations up, so they made a mobile station that could jump out of harm's way. That's a huge strategic advantage, which people would be willing to pay a huge price for.

After all, there were people in this thread talking about how they held back from starting a war with the Argon just because they would have all their Argon territory-based stations blown away if they had that war. If you can simply jump your factories out of harm's way, you can keep all your options open.

=====
stilgarpl wrote:What's the point of having mobile factory ships if you still need stationary factories?
Asteroids are now no longer inexhaustible. You have to hunt down new asteroids as you deplete the old ones. (And asteroids respawn at a set rate.)

Hence, mobile mining ships, plus mobile versions of whatever support factories they might need would be sensible, as it means you can do the "locust" thing others in this thread have mentioned.

You can also try going without your own solar plants, as well. Just buy and/or steal what you need.
stilgarpl wrote:With the new ship AI and NPCs, you don't need to configure CLS. Just assing smaller ships to factory-ships and they should act like CAGs (at least I got that impression from what Bernd said)
That's basically the same thing, really. It's just a matter of whether you push 20 buttons to set up the route or just 5. You forget about it once it's set up, either way.

The point is, you have smaller ships ferrying things around, and they become pirate-vulnerable.

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