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samoja
Joined: 02 Jun 2012
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 Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 00:12 Post subject: |
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| Axeface wrote: |
Your ships in Reunion, TC and AP have ALWAYS BEEN DRONES. With the exception of Sector and Universe Traders, which magically appear in the ship when you want them.
Why is a simple clarification of the same gameplay choice making people so angry? Get a grip. |
Simply put, i don't trust AI to fight for me he is an idiot, i want to fly my most powerful ship myself so i can get the most of it, as much as i know Albinion skunk is a corvette sized ship which means we skip fighter stage altogether(its not in human nature to go backwards by commandeering a drone even if we can) on the other hand well not be able to take on anything bigger than a frigate(with a lot of trouble) without relying on AI ships that, by my experience with past games have less brains than an amoeba, so in essence i will work my asses off to buy a big nice M2 only to have it blown up by a couple of passing M7s that i would just swat off if i was flying it, but that will blow up my nice ship because game considers them greater firepower(did i mention that credits a game needs to replace its ship are exactly 0, it simply spawns new ones whilst ill have to spend a week of game time to make enough money for a new M2.)
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brucewarren
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556 on topic
Location: Not in Kansas any more, Toto.
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 00:20 Post subject: |
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Personally I'm hoping the new AI is going to be a lot smarter. We've only
got experience of the existing one.
_________________
| When questioned about Nuking your own house to get rid of squirrels mrbadger wrote: |
| I think it could be worth the risk..... |
| Furthermore Samual Creshal wrote: |
| Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. |
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Sibilantae
Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 398 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 01:20 Post subject: |
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| samoja wrote: |
| Axeface wrote: |
Your ships in Reunion, TC and AP have ALWAYS BEEN DRONES. With the exception of Sector and Universe Traders, which magically appear in the ship when you want them.
Why is a simple clarification of the same gameplay choice making people so angry? Get a grip. |
Simply put, i don't trust AI to fight for me he is an idiot, i want to fly my most powerful ship myself so i can get the most of it, as much as i know Albinion skunk is a corvette sized ship which means we skip fighter stage altogether(its not in human nature to go backwards by commandeering a drone even if we can) on the other hand well not be able to take on anything bigger than a frigate(with a lot of trouble) without relying on AI ships that, by my experience with past games have less brains than an amoeba, so in essence i will work my asses off to buy a big nice M2 only to have it blown up by a couple of passing M7s that i would just swat off if i was flying it, but that will blow up my nice ship because game considers them greater firepower(did i mention that credits a game needs to replace its ship are exactly 0, it simply spawns new ones whilst ill have to spend a week of game time to make enough money for a new M2.) |
Your argument only really makes sense for the capital ships, considering we can still fly the drones by remote signal (and therefore presumably don't need to physically jump over to them to fly them = better efficiency at switching personal control since we don't need to be in the same region of space as them). Your argument also makes it sound like our capital ships only really survive when we pilot them, which in previous X games would have meant that having more than one capital ship at a time would be pointless. Therefore, even if we assumed previous X-AI, which we can't really do anyway (considering we don't know what the equivalent of OOS is), the inability to pilot a capital ship should only have a marginal effect in terms of capital ship survivability.
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(Oh no, you forgot to close the parenthesis! Someone might get in! |
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samoja
Joined: 02 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 10:47 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Your argument only really makes sense for the capital ships, considering we can still fly the drones by remote signal (and therefore presumably don't need to physically jump over to them to fly them = better efficiency at switching personal control since we don't need to be in the same region of space as them). Your argument also makes it sound like our capital ships only really survive when we pilot them, which in previous X games would have meant that having more than one capital ship at a time would be pointless. Therefore, even if we assumed previous X-AI, which we can't really do anyway (considering we don't know what the equivalent of OOS is), the inability to pilot a capital ship should only have a marginal effect in terms of capital ship survivability. |
Its a computer Sib, no matter how smart it is i doubt they will make separate AI for your ships and NPCs, to computer 1+1 is always=2, if you get into the situation where your ship is outnumbered and outgunned you can very well survive, your AI ship will most likely not going to tough.
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squirrelrider
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 11:00 Post subject: |
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| samoja wrote: |
| to computer 1+1 is always=2 |
Not if you program it to be =3  . (In other words, you can program what you like if you're good, there are no restrictions like the above mentioned.)
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I'm naturally unfriendly sometimes. Don't take what I say too badly.
          Spamming smileys till X rebirth comes out. |
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brucewarren
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556 on topic
Location: Not in Kansas any more, Toto.
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 13:51 Post subject: |
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Is there any reason why a player owned ship should be able to outfight the
foe when outgunned and outnumbered. It sounds like asking for an "I win" button for battles.
A good commander would try to make sure that he was never in the situation
where the enemy had three times the firepower of his fleet in the first place.
Of course, for capital ships there is a way to code in a difference. You allow bridge
commanders to have experience levels. If your guys are battle hardened
they are more likely to survive. You could go further and allow different
types of experience, so a commander skilled in one type of ship would be
able to exploit it and do better but put the same guy in a different type of
ship and he would do badly. This could be used to make choice of ship
more important. For example if the guy has never flown a Boron ship,
you don't assign him to one.
I'm going to stick my neck out and guess, from the emphasis on crew
and how you collect them etc. in the original sticky that they've done
something like this.
_________________
| When questioned about Nuking your own house to get rid of squirrels mrbadger wrote: |
| I think it could be worth the risk..... |
| Furthermore Samual Creshal wrote: |
| Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. |
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Sibilantae
Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 398 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 14:34 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Its a computer Sib, no matter how smart it is i doubt they will make separate AI for your ships and NPCs, to computer 1+1 is always=2, if you get into the situation where your ship is outnumbered and outgunned you can very well survive, your AI ship will most likely not going to tough. |
Squirrel is right, a computer doesn't have to think 1+1=2  But in all seriousness, we both know that AI can be coded in different ways, and we don't really know how it's going to be done here. But even if it is done the same as previous x games, how would the situation fundamentally be worse in Rebirth, where we do the same thing except by remote access? Other than capital ships, sure, but we've been over this (and besides, not piloting capital ships is not a necessary consequence of drone control, because we could in principle consider a capship to be a drone).
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(Oh no, you forgot to close the parenthesis! Someone might get in! |
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Dawud
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 23 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 14:48 Post subject: |
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I think what samoja meant, is that if the AI in the new engine of XR is stronger, not only your computer-controlled capitals are, but also the enemyAI.
So, it does not make any difference at all because, if an AI controlled player ship wins or loses only depends on simple math.
Let´s asume we have an oos-battle with 2 capitals
one owned by the player and one from the cpu.
The cpu controls them both.
And now let us asume we have the latest high-end ultra-AI
what diffrence will it make for the outcome of the fight, when both are controlled by the same AI ?
See ?
If both capitals are equally strong, there should be some kind of randomness and one time capitalship A would win and another time capital B, depending on certain factors(suroundings,allies,etc.).
That we can not controll our capitals anymore, is not that bad at all
because there is nor an advantage or a malus, because it now only depends on what orders you give to your ships and how you equip them.
But long typing, short sense, for it all is just nothing more than speculation.
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brucewarren
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556 on topic
Location: Not in Kansas any more, Toto.
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 16:22 Post subject: |
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Assuminga) Both capitals of same clobbering power
b) Both have crews of similar experience.
If the one is piloted by an ex-pirate on the space weed, it's not going to last long.
Back in Freelancer your foes were rated as to how good they were.
What would be seriously cool would be if cap ships actually had different
strengths and weaknesses and experienced NPC pilots would use different
tactics to make best use of their ship.
_________________
| When questioned about Nuking your own house to get rid of squirrels mrbadger wrote: |
| I think it could be worth the risk..... |
| Furthermore Samual Creshal wrote: |
| Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. |
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A5PECT
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 3512 on topic
Location: NJ, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 18:06 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So, it does not make any difference at all because, if an AI controlled player ship wins or loses only depends on simple math. |
So... are you saying you can't do simple math?
Obviously if you pit two identical ships (weapons, shielding, maneuverability, and pilot skill) against each other, each only has a 50/50 chance of winning. But if one side gets two ships, it suddenly has a much, much higher chance of winning.
Just make sure you're the side with two ships. The way to make it interesting is to not make it a flat numbers game: have certain ships be better at taking out other ships, then have other other ships good at taking out those certain ships, but weak against the other ships (sounds like certain game, eh?).
I'd say the problem previous X-games had in this department is that it's rather difficult for the player to get more ships than the AI. If the player throws 50 fighters against the AI's 40, he's not only risking his 50 fighters, but the time and money spent purchasing, equipping, and micromanaging them. Which is a lot. This can be fixed my making it easier to recoup losses (ships lost and the money/time spent acquiring them).
I'm thinking things like streamlining the ship management interface (attempted in TC/AP) ship equipment templates (already implemented in AP), and reducing the cost of acquiring/repairing ships, and making it possible to salvage ships after they're destroyed.
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"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Dawud
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 23 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 18:28 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So... are you saying you can't do simple math? |
Where did i wrote that ?
I just wrote, that if 2 AI controlled capitals fight each other, it needs a script that is based on a programming language that is based on math.
Simple as that.
| Quote: |
| Obviously if you pit two identical ships (weapons, shielding, maneuverability, and pilot skill) against each other, each only has a 50/50 chance of winning. But if one side gets two ships, it suddenly has a much, much higher chance of winning. |
not THAT much higher, but instead of 1:1/50:50 it is now 25:50 or 1:2
basic math ^^
| Quote: |
| I'd say the problem previous X-games had in this department is that it's rather difficult for the player to get more ships than the AI. If the player throws 50 fighters against the AI's 40, he's not only risking his 50 fighters, but the time and money spent purchasing, equipping, and micromanaging them. Which is a lot. This can be fixed my making it easier to recoup losses (ships lost and the money/time spent acquiring them). |
I agree and at the same time, disagree
because even in TC and AP it is (imho)way too easy to get lots and lots of credits ..ok .. i know.. to buy and equip 50 fighters is a hell lot of work to do..but come on .. Who sends his own 50 fighters against 40 of the enemy ?
certainly NOT me..
I´d rather go for flying there myself with the help of some heavy ships as wingmen guarding me, than make 50 of my fighters nothing but victims.
| Quote: |
| I'm thinking things like streamlining the ship management interface (attempted in TC/AP) ship equipment templates (already implemented in AP), and reducing the cost of acquiring/repairing ships, and making it possible to salvage ships after they're destroyed. |
Now that is indeed a really good idea..
Like having a copy and paste function for previous build setups or something like that .. and the possibility of savaging more then just missiles and weapons after a fight.
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Axeface
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 710 on topic
Location: Naos Nihal
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 20:04 Post subject: |
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| samoja wrote: |
| Axeface wrote: |
Your ships in Reunion, TC and AP have ALWAYS BEEN DRONES. With the exception of Sector and Universe Traders, which magically appear in the ship when you want them.
Why is a simple clarification of the same gameplay choice making people so angry? Get a grip. |
Simply put, i don't trust AI to fight for me he is an idiot, i want to fly my most powerful ship myself so i can get the most of it, as much as i know Albinion skunk is a corvette sized ship which means we skip fighter stage altogether(its not in human nature to go backwards by commandeering a drone even if we can) on the other hand well not be able to take on anything bigger than a frigate..... snip |
Just to get it straight, you are saying that you like being the king of all the universe because you can strafe?
As far as I see it the current gameplay model in TC/AP etc is completely broken. NOTHING can challenge a player that has learnt to strafe (except beams... which I pray are in rebirth too).
I for one am whole heartedly looking forward to the changes in rebirth, especially the capital changes. We will actually have to worry about fights and not just get in the big ships and clear whole sectors without thought.
And the thing about losing a cap to to m7's. I highly expect that crews will play a big role in this and it will be very possible to improve your ships, I'll bet with a good crew your ships will hold out against almost everything. It will be a quasi-roleplay experience where we can micromanage each and every ship!! The empire management factor (Which is one of these games main strengths) has been boosted to a whole new level of depth. It will be brilliant imho.
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brucewarren
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556 on topic
Location: Not in Kansas any more, Toto.
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 21:08 Post subject: |
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| Dawud wrote: |
not THAT much higher, but instead of 1:1/50:50 it is now 25:50 or 1:2
basic math ^^ |
Er. No. You're assuming one-round battles.
Two ships against one is way in favour of the two ships because they're
trading blows. So in a two for one fight, the two ships will walk away with
50% damage each and the one will be obliterated.
_________________
| When questioned about Nuking your own house to get rid of squirrels mrbadger wrote: |
| I think it could be worth the risk..... |
| Furthermore Samual Creshal wrote: |
| Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. |
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TonyEvans
Joined: 15 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 22:04 Post subject: |
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Regarding caps being lost to M7m's... I hope it's implemented that drones can be ordered to attack missiles... or at the very least the turret system me made smarter that one turret group targets a different missile, instead of 4 5 6 7 8 9 12 turrets all targetting one missile, leaving the other dozen intact
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Dawud
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 23 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 9. Jul 12, 22:52 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So in a two for one fight, the two ships will walk away with
50% damage each and the one will be obliterated. |
this is not right either..
if we have 3 ships, all of the same type
and ship A & B are shooting at ship C
and ship C ist shooting at ship A & B
when ship C loses 100% of its shields/hull
ship A & B would be both at 75%
2 ships = twice the amount of damage made to ship C = 2 times more dps
[mister_i_know_it_all_better_mode] (OFF)
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