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If the player can not drive a battleship, how to compensate it? |
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BGrey
Joined: 09 Jan 2011
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 Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 00:08 Post subject: |
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| Chris0132 wrote: |
In the real world though, capital ships were highly vulnerable to fighter attack, that's why they stopped making them.
If fighters can't damage large objects, then the only point in having them is to destroy other fighters, which you don't need to do because by simply not fielding any fighters, you can render yourself immune to them. |
Vulnerable to fighters using weapons dedicated to the task. What happens in X3 at the moment is more like those fighters using their 50 cal and 20mm machine guns to sink the a battleship when those bullets would have bounced off of it.
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SinisterDeath
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 03:09 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In the real world though, capital ships were highly vulnerable to fighter attack, that's why they stopped making them.
If fighters can't damage large objects, then the only point in having them is to destroy other fighters, which you don't need to do because by simply not fielding any fighters, you can render yourself immune to them. |
Actually that is the case when it comes to 'space' combat.
And just becuase 'longer range' weapons doesn't mean you 'have' to use them at 'longer range', infact if you could 'jump', jumping right on someones tail, with those 'long range' weapons that could theoretically '1 shot' even a capital ship...
No, but fighters are good for 2 things when it comes to 'long range space' battles.
Anti-Missles
Anti-Fighters
And of course,
Invasion.
Why destroy, when you can steal?
Take the shields down, send in fighters to harrass and boarde that nice big tastey capital ship.
And a truelly better analogy is a Bee compared to a human.
A single bee can't do much.
But a swarm?
yea, that can kill the human.
Another thing about 'fighters' and long-range capital ship fighting?
Interception of not just missles, but sucidiing on incoming shots, or just plain harrasment of the enemy ships censors.
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AllIWantisaXenonK
Joined: 29 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 09:59 Post subject: |
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Certain games make it impossible to damage a capital ships shields if weapons fire wasn't higher than the shield level of the Capital ship.
Say you have a level 20 in shields, and then you have a level 18 firing on those level 20 shields. The Level 20 shields incur no damage. So its essentially Capitals Vrs Capitals, or Capitals vrs Heavy Bombers...or Capitals Vrs Spammed Fighters and Corvettes.
Its also easier for Devs to control gameplay mechanics to craft a more robust Player experience, since the Devs have more control over how ships effect eachother.
I wonder if Egosoft are doing something like that...??
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 10:57 Post subject: |
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| Virtualaughing wrote: |
This is all depends of how fast we can change between our ship interface and all the remote controled BSs interface. If it will be with some fancy transfer effect then older PCs may be laggy ;p
Be kind and let us order USEFULL commands which can avoid weaponfire. If all will be between shields and weapons then that is pure math and powerplay instead of tactics. |
How to make use of capships tactics:
- depending on the positioning, FoF and tpye of weapons mounted - the abiltiy to order the capship different manouvers. To approach the traget from a specific side and point a specific side towards the target. Bacily to face the enemy with hte most guns, offer the smallest profile, while at the sam time hitting hte enemy from the side where there's the lest guns
- in addition to the aboive, either segmented shields OR (even better) armor blocks (look at Sword of the Stars 2 and how it does armor). This gives positioning even more importance. Modules, upgrades and weapon selection ebcomes also more important.
In short, capships and gameplay has to be designed fom the get-go to support manouver capship combat
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 10:59 Post subject: |
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| Spero wrote: |
| SinisterDeath wrote: |
| I still say we need longer ranged weaponry then we currently do, it may not be as accurate, but with as powerful as it 'could' be, and knowing your 'enemy' would have access to it to, would put combat at further range than is currently applied. |
Having longer ranged weapons is analogous to making the game models smaller; giving ships less screen time and generally filling more of the screen with empty space. Not a good trade-off in my opinion. |
As opposed ot have the space feel tiny and the ships feel silly?
| Quote: |
| SinisterDeath wrote: |
| Alot of people think of space combat as naval warfare. Not only that, they think of it like 1500s naval warfare, and forget taht the modern 'warship' has a range upwards of 100 miles. <_< |
You assume that would actually be fun to play. |
You assume bigger distances means it wouldn't.
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 11:02 Post subject: |
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| Spero wrote: |
| mrscribbler wrote: |
| It depends how the square-cubed law is applied in shield generation. A ship that's 2x the length (with everything else being equal) of another will have 4x the area to cover but 8x the volume for power and defense systems. So it should be 8x as powerful if the shield generators don't have to care about the area they're covering, but only twice if they do (which seems to be inconsistently* the case in X3). |
I'd assume the shield force is focused where it's needed, rather than persistently and uniformly generated over the whole ship. That would be insanely inefficient as you describe. |
And how exactly do you focus a energy field? They are spherical by nature.
And lasers travel at hte speed of light.
So how do you detect and intercept a laser?
You don't. You have a constant defense.
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 11:12 Post subject: |
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| Chris0132 wrote: |
In the real world though, capital ships were highly vulnerable to fighter attack, that's why they stopped making them.
If fighters can't damage large objects, then the only point in having them is to destroy other fighters, which you don't need to do because by simply not fielding any fighters, you can render yourself immune to them. |
In the real world, fighters opertated in atmosphere, not space.
Carriers were protected by the curvature of earth and the horizon, and by lack of long-range detection. Also, battleship couldn't "jump" right next to you and blow you to smitherenes.
The viabiltiy of certain ship types ALWAYS depends on the battlefield conditions. Detection, range, speed, defences, mode of travel and choke-points, etc...
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Mightysword
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 1933 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 18:31 Post subject: |
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| SinisterDeath wrote: |
And just becuase 'longer range' weapons doesn't mean you 'have' to use them at 'longer range', infact if you could 'jump', jumping right on someones tail, with those 'long range' weapons that could theoretically '1 shot' even a capital ship...
|
And this is why the Jumping ability is one of thing I hate the most in a scifi setting. To me they're just a cheap and cheese story device and mechanic. Whenever I see a capital ship goes down, or an elaborated plan to ambush something the Jump capability stick out like sore thump.
The lack of a Jump Drive probably is the only reason I prefer the Wing Commander universe over the Freespace 2 universe. In Wing Commander tactical movement and deployment of capital makes sense, and they take into account of thing like celestial body gravity pull to gain a tactical advantage, whether Freespace 2 (and mods based on it, even the famed Blue Planet series) win or lost 90% sorely depend on how convenience the writers decide the Jumpdrive will kick in.
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Freeman_79
Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 197 on topic
Location: Sweden - Stockholm
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| Posted: Tue, 10. Apr 12, 20:55 Post subject: |
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Hehe people, keep in mind that this is not "Real World", its a virutal world.
And thank god that all games arent based on real world.
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Thardimin
Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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| Posted: Wed, 11. Apr 12, 21:17 Post subject: |
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| dougeye wrote: |
| i would like to see a mini rts interface for large fleet battles (with cap ships) you can open the map console, click point order and shoot etc quickly in the map view and then exit that view to view the battle in real time. |
I feel like this would be really cool and allow for more efficient space battles that might be a bit more organized and cool looking rather than some of the other variations of space battles, such as EVE online battles, I've seen where it's just a big random conglomeration of ships. (Maybe they're more organized than they seem but I wouldn't know, I've never actually participated in one.) But if you could have it open out to something similar to an interface like you see in Homeworld I think it'd be cool.
| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
And how exactly do you focus a energy field? They are spherical by nature.
And lasers travel at hte speed of light. |
It's not that you would focus it in a specific area. I think they're implying that it'd be more of a focusing of shields in a general direction. It also depends on how you interpret the shield. If it is generated by a single entity then it would be very hard to change powers in certain areas. But if shields are a conglomeration of various generators then you can manage your energy usage more accurately by supplying energy to only the ones facing your enemy or something of the like. The example that comes to mind is Star Trek. They never keep their shields at full power all the time, they only bring them up in the areas they need them when they need them. Same idea.
| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
| So how do you detect and intercept a laser? |
You wouldn't detect it, you'd predict it. Or do something simple like give you a warning that weapons have been locked on.
| SinisterDeath wrote: |
| Alot of people think of space combat as naval warfare. Not only that, they think of it like 1500s naval warfare, and forget taht the modern 'warship' has a range upwards of 100 miles. <_< |
I think this form of warfare is heavily dependent on how fleets and wingmen are controlled in battle situations. If you can have a full fleet at your command then spreading out battles like this would be great because it would give you maneuverability and also allow for the employment of various offensive and defensive techniques with your smaller fleet ships to help defeat a single enemy. But if it's just a single ship (capital, fighter, frigate, etc) I feel it would be more entertaining to be on a smaller scale so that your piloting skills become the main focus rather than your large scale tactics.
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Lord Dakier
 
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2607 on topic
Location: VSF Flagship "Noblesse Oblige"
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| Posted: Wed, 11. Apr 12, 22:56 Post subject: |
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Well with X we have never really used bombers as a main force. Player or AI. You think how a battle in space would be.
Now in theory the objective is to destroy the enemy command and leave the enemy command hierarchy in a mess. So first things first we need to defeat the enemy command ship. No easy task in a large fleet vs fleet battle. How are we going to achieve this?
1. Bombers, bombers, bombers
We send our advanced bomber forces to defeat the enemy command ship, only problem is they have two objects in their way; fighters the more common and other capital ships. Now ofcourse the enemy wants their capital ships safe so they'll be last resorts to engage the bombers. They're going to send their fighters at us.
2. Where's that damn fighter support?
This is the interesting part of fleet combat. Do you send your fighters to screen your bombers or do you defeat the enemy fighters first. Gunboats such as M6's as we know will tear these things apart so we need do need some bombers out there gunning for these little bad boys.
3. You may fire when ready...
Long range dreadnoughts is always a game changer. Any fleet that has a monster capable of firing outside the red zone is deadly. We need ways on how these can be balanced. Now one that isn't widely discussed is a limitation of an ammo based weapon. Now the Deathstar can't shoot rapidly this is due to the huge magnitude of energy being fired. Now think on a much smaller scale of our little dreadnoughts. I'm not saying one-shot more like it has say 4 laser generators, each shot fired disables them for a certain amount of time. The attack being slow line up and fire also. Now this doesn't need to destroy every ship straight away but imagine if it could disable, not destroy say an M7 class ship. The final piece of balancing would be in game price and AI respawn rate.
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Thu, 12. Apr 12, 09:00 Post subject: |
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| Thardimin wrote: |
| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
And how exactly do you focus a energy field? They are spherical by nature.
And lasers travel at hte speed of light. |
It's not that you would focus it in a specific area. I think they're implying that it'd be more of a focusing of shields in a general direction. It also depends on how you interpret the shield. If it is generated by a single entity then it would be very hard to change powers in certain areas. But if shields are a conglomeration of various generators then you can manage your energy usage more accurately by supplying energy to only the ones facing your enemy or something of the like. The example that comes to mind is Star Trek. They never keep their shields at full power all the time, they only bring them up in the areas they need them when they need them. Same idea. |
Except that applying more energy to a specific emitter automaticly changes shield shape...assuming it's even possible to use multiple emitter.
| Quote: |
| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
| So how do you detect and intercept a laser? |
You wouldn't detect it, you'd predict it. Or do something simple like give you a warning that weapons have been locked on. |
And how would you know it's been locked on?
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- Pontifex Maximus Panaidia Est Canicula Infernalis |
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Master of the Blade
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 1861 on topic
Location: the Next Level
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| Posted: Thu, 12. Apr 12, 14:13 Post subject: |
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| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
| And how would you know it's been locked on? |
'Oh look they're pointing a gun at us! Maybe we should defend ourselves from them?' 
Actually, though that wasn't especially serious, it would make stealth a more viable tactic. Can't tell if someone's pointing a gun at you if you can't see them in the first place...
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If you want to prove a point, the Vidar will provide a perfectly acceptable alternative to the average fleet. and it's practically free.
If at first you don't succeed, delegate the job to a minion.
*point* HAAAX! *CRT throw* I'm not immature at all... |
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THE_TrashMan
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Location: Bridge of the TNBS Judgment Day
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| Posted: Thu, 12. Apr 12, 14:35 Post subject: |
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| Master of the Blade wrote: |
| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
| And how would you know it's been locked on? |
'Oh look they're pointing a gun at us! Maybe we should defend ourselves from them?' |
You "see" them pointing a laser gun the same way laser gets you to...photons. Assumign you can see the specific turret pointing your way (and to waht part of your ship) when the ship is beyond visual range.
So effectively, if you see a laser, it already hit you.
What you could possibly do is to pre-emptively dump power into one complete side of your shields, the side your'e expecting the attakc to come.
Altough it's questionable if that is possible. Deviding shields into quadrants is (in theory) impossible, or at beast, highly inefficient (at least according to my former physics professor, and he knows his stuff).
| Quote: |
Actually, though that wasn't especially serious, it would make stealth a more viable tactic. Can't tell if someone's pointing a gun at you if you can't see them in the first place... |
No stealth in space
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Spero
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1268 on topic
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| Posted: Thu, 12. Apr 12, 15:29 Post subject: |
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| THE_TrashMan wrote: |
And how exactly do you focus a energy field? They are spherical by nature.
And lasers travel at hte speed of light.
So how do you detect and intercept a laser?
You don't. You have a constant defense. |
What on earth are you basing this on?
The point of an "energy shield" is to counteract the kinetic or thermal energy applied to an object by means of an equal or greater force.
Don't you think it'd be pretty stupid to be constantly applying that force universally all over the ship? And if you could apply such volumes of force, imagine the force that weapons would be able to apply! Shields would be a complete waste of energy in every sense of the word.
As for "how do you focus an energy shield", well, a shield would be made of charged particles. It would be a matter of getting those particles infront of what you wanted. How you achieve that would be down to minds of the future.
"So how do you detect and intercept a laser?"; firstly, you could give a pretty good prediction as to where the laser would hit. Secondly, X doesn't use any laser weaponry despite their (mis)naming, with the sole exception of the laser tower.
I think your mind is in far too magical a place to try to draw reality in here.
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