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Shrewd135
Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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 Posted: Fri, 21. Dec 12, 21:15 Post subject: Heated debate from Release Date thread |
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| Alexzay wrote: |
| ETA 2013. So...another 365 days for waiting |
How many hours a day or days a year do these people work???
Are they doing this as a hobby or as part of their career?
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Aragosnat
  
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 787 on topic
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| Posted: Sat, 22. Dec 12, 02:59 Post subject: |
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| Shrewd135 wrote: |
| Alexzay wrote: |
| ETA 2013. So...another 365 days for waiting |
How many hours a day or days a year do these people work???
Are they doing this as a hobby or as part of their career? |
Us or the devs?
_________________
Chain Maille Armor
Profitzz
May this spacefly bother you.
TC: 32+ Squidie (Steam DiD) deaths and counting since around June 18, 2012. |
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eladan
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 5293 on topic
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
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| Posted: Sat, 22. Dec 12, 03:07 Post subject: |
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| Shrewd135 wrote: |
How many hours a day or days a year do these people work???
Are they doing this as a hobby or as part of their career? |
Yeah! Gee, all of those programming teams who all spend years creating new game engines must be rubbish! You could sure show them a thing or two, and I bet you could do it in half the time! 
We heard you before, loudly proclaiming your leet programming skills, and questioning how ES could possibly spend this much time creating something as simple as a game, unlike the impossibly complex stuff that you write. You were told then (by someone who should know) how complex an undertaking it is to write a game engine. Clearly you simply don't believe it, and you must be right, in direct disagreement with the entire gaming industry.
Bottom line: You think you can do it better or faster? Put up or shut up.
_________________
My X3:Reunion Scripts |
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Shrewd135
Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 02:24 Post subject: |
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| eladan wrote: |
| Shrewd135 wrote: |
How many hours a day or days a year do these people work???
Are they doing this as a hobby or as part of their career? |
Yeah! Gee, all of those programming teams who all spend years creating new game engines must be rubbish! You could sure show them a thing or two, and I bet you could do it in half the time!
We heard you before, loudly proclaiming your leet programming skills, and questioning how ES could possibly spend this much time creating something as simple as a game, unlike the impossibly complex stuff that you write. You were told then (by someone who should know) how complex an undertaking it is to write a game engine. Clearly you simply don't believe it, and you must be right, in direct disagreement with the entire gaming industry.
Bottom line: You think you can do it better or faster? Put up or shut up. |
Nice of you to attack me for asking a question, but again the question is valid. I have been on development teams for over 10 years. I have a large series of questions that would completely answer where this project is, but no one will answer them.
But as I have said before developing games does not take as long as you think... however that assumes you have a well fleshed out plan before hand. If not, you get scope creep, revisions, and what not, which pushes schedules.
So I will continue to ask questions, thank you very much. If you are afraid of questions, then what you are really afraid of is the answers.
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eladan
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 5293 on topic
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 05:36 Post subject: |
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| Shrewd135 wrote: |
| Nice of you to attack me for asking a question, but again the question is valid. |
You have previously posted expressing disbelief that the development of the game could take as long as it has. Your post may have been phrased as a question, but it was clearly intended as further criticism at the length of the development process.
| Quote: |
I have been on development teams for over 10 years.
...
But as I have said before developing games does not take as long as you think... however that assumes you have a well fleshed out plan before hand. If not, you get scope creep, revisions, and what not, which pushes schedules. |
And there it is again, you claiming that you know better than the rest of the gaming industry how long programming a game should take.
| Quote: |
| So I will continue to ask questions, thank you very much. If you are afraid of questions, then what you are really afraid of is the answers. |
You won't get any answers, partly because as I said, you weren't really actually asking a question, and partly because it's none of your business to try to figure out where they should be in their progress anyway.
_________________
My X3:Reunion Scripts |
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Shrewd135
Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 05:57 Post subject: |
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Seriously, what is your problem?
You take time out of your life to criticize someone who asks questions about a game that is being developed??
Is that as constructive a thing that you can do??
Who exactly do you think you are defending???
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bizbag
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 377 on topic
Location: MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 06:28 Post subject: |
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It's because your question obliquely calls the Egosoft team unprofessional because they haven't met what you seem to believe is an appropriate schedule for a professional studio.
There have been games with tremendously long development times that turned out very well, such as TF2 and others that did not, like DNF. In addition, more important than empirical time is man hours- and ES's team is small relative to many other large companies.
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Shrewd135
Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 06:59 Post subject: |
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So instead of denotation you think only of connotation. Inventing a meaning in your mind instead of answering a question directly. Not every question is an attack. And even if it was an attack why would you perceive the need to defend an employee from a question about his product.
To me this behavior seems very strange
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NLS
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 439 on topic
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 10:39 Post subject: |
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Well I call them unprofessional even though my opinion here is valued zero to negative.
Thank you very much.
BTW I don't get all this defense thing. Are you getting paid? Do you expect a free release hard-copy for this?
As much as you like being fanboys (by the term's pure definition - so I STILL fail to understand how you get insulted by that) of an invisible product, some other people are more or less fed up (you hate those people from start) OR at least choose to question some things. Some of them based on their EXPERT background (because yes ES is not the only dev team on the planet). Well Fact of Life (TM). Sorry.
Actually questioning things doesn't defer much from all those opinions on how some of the game mechanics, dynamics or aesthetics should be. You seem to like and encourage those though. Strange.
Ah, Merry Christmas everybody.
_________________
---
NLS |
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Roger L.S. Griffiths
Joined: 12 Mar 2004
Posts: 5819 on topic
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 11:30 Post subject: |
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| eladan wrote: |
| Quote: |
I have been on development teams for over 10 years.
...
But as I have said before developing games does not take as long as you think... however that assumes you have a well fleshed out plan before hand. If not, you get scope creep, revisions, and what not, which pushes schedules. |
And there it is again, you claiming that you know better than the rest of the gaming industry how long programming a game should take. |
Although I do not agree with the tone of these comments, I must agree with the general sentiment of eladan in this instance.
Estimating for any kind of Software Engineering/Development is not an exact science. In general (from my personal extensive professional experience), estimates generated by software engineers (inc. myself) have a tendency to be on the optimistic side in the main.
With regards to schedules and plans, even if risk and other factors are taken into account there is no guarantee that the initial plan will survive the life of the project. And the longer the plan is, the less likely it is to survive.
For the non-software industry people, in-general authoring a piece of software is quick, but documenting, testing, debugging, and rework are hard to pin down.
I have worked for a few companies (and multiple domains) over my career and the two aspects that tend to suffer in aggressive software plans are documentation and/or testing.
But this is rather off-topic in some ways, so I will get to my point...
Software development takes as long as it takes and no-one without sight of the design and/or software architecture can fairly say that the development time should either be shorter or longer than the projected estimates.
_________________
Roger (aka [SRK] Mr^Rabbit)
"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55
"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb
"How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." - Unknown |
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Shrewd135
Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 11:47 Post subject: |
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| Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote: |
Software development takes as long as it takes and no-one without sight of the design and/or software architecture can fairly say that the development time should either be shorter or longer than the projected estimates. |
So you are trying to tell me that you believe there are no standard metrics in determining the level of completeness of a software program???
You know that is not true. I don't give a rats Butt about what a house looks like its size, scope, cost, or anything else at all to ask basic questions of completeness.
"is the foundation poured for it yet?"
"Is the framing done?"
"Have you got the plumbing done yet without fixtures?"
Electirical installed?
"Is the roof on the house yet and is it complete?"
Have you insilated the inside of the house yet?
Are the internal walls in place?
Tiling?
Finishing?
Exterior siding?
Walkthrough?
So in 11 questions, I can give you a damn good idea of completeness of ANY house that has ever been built.
Software has the same set of abstract metrics.
You tell me using that set of metrics how finished this house is
"is the foundation poured for it yet?" 100% finished
"Is the framing done?" 100% finished
"Have you got the plumbing done yet without fixtures?" 80% finished
Electirical installed? 100% finished
"Is the roof on the house yet and is it complete?" 50% finished.
Have you insilated the inside of the house yet? No.
Are the internal walls in place? 50% finished. All drywall in place, but fixtures are not completed yet
Tiling? 0%
Finishing? 20%
Exterior siding? 80%
Walkthrough? 30% Preliminary walk throughs for framing, electrical, and plumbing placement have been completed.
How long do you think it will take to finish this house with this information???
Your expectation changes dramatically when you have actual information rather than just someone being evasive.
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lardybloke
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 38 on topic
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 12:11 Post subject: |
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Hey, chill! It's only a game.
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Roger L.S. Griffiths
Joined: 12 Mar 2004
Posts: 5819 on topic
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 12:22 Post subject: |
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| Shrewd135 wrote: |
| Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote: |
Software development takes as long as it takes and no-one without sight of the design and/or software architecture can fairly say that the development time should either be shorter or longer than the projected estimates. |
So you are trying to tell me that you believe there are no standard metrics in determining the level of completeness of a software program??? |
Metrics are of debatable merit in estimating and are only of value in the context in which they are collected. We can not universally apply a given metric in all circumstances. I know some people may disagree with this assessment, but this is my personal professional experience and is really a topic for discussion elsewhere.
[EDIT]As an aside, we have no visibility of any metrics Egosoft may or may not be using to assess software completeness. At least none that meet the S.M.A.R.T. criteria.[/EDIT]
| Shrewd135 wrote: |
| Your expectation changes dramatically when you have actual information rather than just someone being evasive. |
In software terms, we need details of ALL the derived requirements and the detailed design to be able to judge an estimate/schedule. None of which we have explicit sight of in this forum. 
At best, we can have a rough idea of the minimum time it would take to develop a piece of software given the information publicly available in this forum. Even when we know all the details, maximum time estimates is at best educated guess-work.
| lardybloke wrote: |
| Hey, chill! It's only a game. |
Agreed 
Merry Christmas all!!
_________________
Roger (aka [SRK] Mr^Rabbit)
"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55
"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb
"How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." - Unknown
Last edited by Roger L.S. Griffiths on Sun, 23. Dec 12, 12:58; edited 1 time in total |
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JediJoshua
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 18 on topic
Location: Wales
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 12:58 Post subject: |
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| lardybloke wrote: |
| Hey, chill! It's only a game. |
Or is it? 
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Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 10528 on topic
Location: Stonehenge, UK
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| Posted: Sun, 23. Dec 12, 13:40 Post subject: |
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Whatever the intentions of the original question, this has turned into a series of ill-natured personal attacks or comments that do not belong on the forum and that have encouraged others to take sides and join in. I am ending it here.
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A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff. |
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