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Chris0132
Joined: 22 Jun 2008
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 Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 01:22 Post subject: |
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X3 already has most of the components of an RTS, the only thing it needs is a good interface for it.
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Science
Joined: 08 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 05:08 Post subject: |
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| Sir Warwick wrote: |
| +1 - homeworld style fleet control and 3d tactical view please! |
I sort of agree but not to necressarily turn this game into a open world Homeworld 3.
On the sector map it would be insanely useful to controll your fleet and fleet possition using an RTS style and 3D map. One of the biggest problems when co-ordinating at attacks and using the AI was that youd have to use move to possition comands through the command console, and issuing attacks also needed you go through the console. Engaging in big battles would be a lot more fluent if you were able to control your fleet with point click selections and quick commands right clicks through sector maps.
It's not so much a case of dumbing the game down, as it is allowing quicker controll of your ships as to not distract you from fighting the battle at hand. AND potentialy create more exciting battles that you can controll down to the individual ships rather than letting the AI 'go for it' somewhat, or using a big command mod for fleet management.
In a sense seeing something like this would be a good sign of the X series progressing while keeping to its core.
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A5PECT
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 3512 on topic
Location: NJ, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 05:48 Post subject: |
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X3 already contains a whole bunch of RTS elements.
Your AI-controlled properties are essentially units, and you can issue commands to them like move, attack, and protect.
The thing about X3 is that those elements are very badly designed (particularly in the interface.)
So Egosoft just has to make them better.
_________________
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." |
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Noimageavaiable
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 07:17 Post subject: |
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| Sir Warwick wrote: |
| +1 - homeworld style fleet control and 3d tactical view please! |
Please don't. I don't know what everyone sees in the homeworld control scheme, I found it next to impossible to control anything or even just to judge it's position as soon as you left the ecliptic plane. The sector map of X³ is the superior system by far, all it needs is some mouse control, add some drag box, right-click context sensitive commands and there's your RTS interface.
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Science
Joined: 08 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 10:50 Post subject: |
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More or less, however I don't think there much of a problem with the Homeworld system (none that you couldn't get used to). But the point is that most of the information and commands are readily available on screen or just a click or button press away. Little scrolling, no clunky command menu (which is a problem in X3 since you can only keep one window open at a time for the most part), or having to remember number combinations for quick commands (these were and still would be handy though*). Aside from having the two little pages for the commands on the bottom left the Homeworld UI was pretty well accessible and clutter free.
*Though my gripe with this was that that the number commands wasn't fixed and if you knew a combination by heart for a ship with all command software and tried to do it in one missing a software or two you could enter the wrong command.
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rusky
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 276 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 5. Mar 12, 11:57 Post subject: |
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| KloHunt3r wrote: |
X3 already contains a whole bunch of RTS elements.
Your AI-controlled properties are essentially units, and you can issue commands to them like move, attack, and protect.
The thing about X3 is that those elements are very badly designed (particularly in the interface.)
So Egosoft just has to make them better. |
Agreed.
The current X games are an amazing mix of space sim/economic sim/empire sim, the problem being that the higher level economic bits and most of the empire part (including fleet control and empire management) have been added on top of a space sim game with very little UI support, making actually using them a horrible pain that only the most dedicated can put up with 
If they can make managing many ships/fleets/stations across many sectors, intuitive and easy, while keeping all the things that made X the awesome series it is (small ships/big ships, dogfighting. fleet combat, trading, pirating, building stations, conquering space ! etc.. ), I have no doubt X Rebirth will be a hit, and not just with us long time followers. 
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aliengmr
Joined: 10 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue, 6. Mar 12, 01:12 Post subject: |
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I agree with having a RTS style approach for coordinating large groups of ships.
The interface has to be cleaned up a lot. I can't stay the way its been. There are ways to simplify it and keep it as complex as its always been.
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CutterJohn1
Joined: 27 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu, 15. Mar 12, 18:44 Post subject: |
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+37 to better controls.
Once you move beyond a small fleet, X3 pretty much is an FPS/RTS hybrid. All of the common elements are there. dozens of units, resource gathering, basebuilding. Whats lacking, and has always been lacking, are the controls to support this style of gameplay, i.e. standard rts controls. They are like that because they work.. they have been fine tuned over the past 20 years to support one guy giving commands to a lot of units.
Its also needed for factories. Select a silicone mine, right click a crystal fab, and a visual link is set up in the map view between them. Select a ship, right click the link you just established. Bam. That ship is charged with hauling silicone from the mine to the fab.
Select a hauler, right click a factories product. Bam, its job is to sell that product. Select the same ship and shift right click another product. Bam. Now it sells both.
Select a hauler, right click a factory resource need. Bam, that ship is in charge of purchasing that resource for the factory.
Select a ship, right click another ship or station. It goes and guards it, following it everywhere. Shift right click. It docks there. Control right click. Its homeported there.
Open up a ships inventory. Select a product. Right click on a station. It takes it there and sells it(if it can). Right click your own station or a ship, it delivers it(again, if it can).
Open up a station, buy something. Select the item, right click a ship, right click a destination. It goes and picks it up and delivers or sells it. Select the product and shift right click, it equips it.
Select a ship or factory. ctr+c. Select another ship. Ctr + V. Congratulations, it just copied that ships settings and equipment loadout exactly. Maybe it could even go purchase them automatically. Once outfitted, it does exactly what the first ship is doing.
Sooo many methods of improving the functionality of the UI, making commanding your fleets(both combat and mercantile) far simpler and more intuitive.
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Nanook
Moderator (English)
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 22551 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
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| Posted: Thu, 15. Mar 12, 19:24 Post subject: |
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It seems that a lot of people here haven't read the stickies, where Bernd makes the point, both for ships and factories, that you'll be dealing indirectly with them through various NPC's you've hired. In that kind of system, there's no need for the RTS elements most in this thread have envisioned. You're still stuck in the old X3 way of thinking. You really should read the stickies, and then wait and see how it's being implemented. 
_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict. |
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dblade
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 57 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 16. Mar 12, 02:20 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| It seems that a lot of people here haven't read the stickies, where Bernd makes the point, both for ships and factories, that you'll be dealing indirectly with them through various NPC's you've hired. In that kind of system, there's no need for the RTS elements most in this thread have envisioned. You're still stuck in the old X3 way of thinking. You really should read the stickies, and then wait and see how it's being implemented. |
I haven't played AP yet, but based on what you said here (some of us read the stickies btw and still like the idea of some RTS like features) maybe one of the NPC's are going to be a Fleet Commander to which you could assign large set of ships (in the easiest fashion imaginable) and then you just boss him around instead of 50 captains.
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Spero
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1268 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 16. Mar 12, 03:16 Post subject: |
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| dblade wrote: |
| I haven't played AP yet, but based on what you said here (some of us read the stickies btw and still like the idea of some RTS like features) maybe one of the NPC's are going to be a Fleet Commander to which you could assign large set of ships (in the easiest fashion imaginable) and then you just boss him around instead of 50 captains. |
That would be ideal.
Take 3 corvettes. Assign them as a fleet. Tell them to defend X region.
Pirates attack and destroy 1 corvette and heavily damage the other 2.
Whoever is in command will replace the lost corvette and repair the damaged ones (presumably at a cost to yourself), re-equip it and re-issue the defend region order.
If it's not at least that intelligent (which, let's be honest, isn't really complicated, the X3 NPC AI already does this), then end-game will probably be just as wingman unfriendly as the previous installments.
I secretly hope also that there's some mechanic that makes wingmen viable. It's such a lost chunk of potential.
An insurance system which replaces lost wingmen, wow, yes please.
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Rickjames125
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 32 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 16. Mar 12, 04:09 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| It seems that a lot of people here haven't read the stickies, where Bernd makes the point, both for ships and factories, that you'll be dealing indirectly with them through various NPC's you've hired. In that kind of system, there's no need for the RTS elements most in this thread have envisioned. You're still stuck in the old X3 way of thinking. You really should read the stickies, and then wait and see how it's being implemented. |
But I think the combat should be an RTS System that they are describing. Ive been ever so frustrated navigating menus to cancel or issue new commands when with a better interface for maybe just commanding ships in combat would take a "point and click"
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CutterJohn1
Joined: 27 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri, 16. Mar 12, 11:31 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| It seems that a lot of people here haven't read the stickies, where Bernd makes the point, both for ships and factories, that you'll be dealing indirectly with them through various NPC's you've hired. In that kind of system, there's no need for the RTS elements most in this thread have envisioned. You're still stuck in the old X3 way of thinking. You really should read the stickies, and then wait and see how it's being implemented. |
I've read it, but I don't understand it. They say they are trying to improve control, but an NPC conversation is anything but an improvement. It is even worse than menus, at least menus can be fast once you memorize them..
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BigBANGtheory
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 637 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 16. Mar 12, 18:52 Post subject: |
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Well I for one want to be able to micromanage ships in certain situations, if that isn't achieved through an RTS type interface then how? How else does one command in realtime complex instructructions to multiple units in a non-complicated way?
I'm open to new ideas, and I think we've already established that X3 didn't handle this aspect very well presumably because the game expanded in scope but carried game engine limitations.
Please don't chop the ability to control units in realtime out all together that is a terrible route to go down.
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siwy0184
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 10 on topic
Location: Iceland
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| Posted: Fri, 23. Mar 12, 11:25 Post subject: |
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Homeworld's tactical screen and controls in it would be nice.
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