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Rabiator der II.
Joined: 14 Nov 2011
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 Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 13:54 Post subject: |
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| ConCorDian wrote: |
| i honestly dont see how that would work out... the game would need to be a proper MMO... CoOp on a game like this would be insane, because think of the hours youd need to put in to build a corporation, plus then those hours can only be put in when all 4-8 of you are online at the same time? ive been a supporter of adding in Multiplayer "FEATURES" (like a solo sector that you "JUMP" to with a ship and can then trade, fight or salavage what you can against other players online) but having the bulk of the game Single Player... but sorry CoOp doesn't seem like it would work to me.. |
Yes, the development effort might be considerable, as you'd need most of the features of a real MMO. Maybe you could skip things like the auction house. Among a handful of friends playing together I could see it working that you just drop cargo for your friends to pick up, without cheatiung each other  .
About being online together:
Not necessarily, I could imagine the game running on a private server and game time starting to run as soon as one player logs in. Again, that would require friends playing together, else AFK kills of other players' stuff might become the norm.
Real MMOs like EVE go to considerable lengths to give players a chance at defending their stuff, but a CoOp might be able to get away without that 
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Rabiator der II.
Joined: 14 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 14:08 Post subject: |
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| Vayde wrote: |
How about we start the game with a really dreadful economy, very few resources, and all that's available to the player is a few thousand creds, and a fast ship with a decent cargo hold.
With that in mind make the economic Ai really smart and have it start to ramp up the production of basic materials to feed the higher level fabs and so on and so forth.
Now not only will the player have a plot to contend with but the universe is getting a head start on him/her. Once the plot completes and we are free to go our own way with the goodies it provided, the universe will be just waiting for us to tip a few scales or bring down a government or two.
However should we not be cut free after the plot there's always the S&M forum to fix that little oversight  |
Sounds interesting, but I think it might actually decrease the head start the universe has on the player. As in, by the time the AI gets around to building advanced fabs, s smart players have caught up to it  .
Otherwise, I like the idea of a "seed" economy that is the basis for further buildup. Those basic resources could even be respawned in selected core sectors of each race or major organization if necessary. That would give the NPC economy a way to recover from disasters, but still leave most of the universe up for grabs (read conquest)
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Slashman
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1285 on topic
Location: Barbados
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 16:11 Post subject: |
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They've already stated that the game will start out simple and move fairly fast. I assume this is to acclimate new players. So many options won't be available at the start.
The plot will likely be used to advance the player so that when they finally 'release' you to the open universe, you'll have a handle on things. For that reason, spawning might be required initially to populate the universe...but I don't think it would need to be a perpetual mechanic.
There is way too much speculation here and not enough information though. Egosoft/Deepsilver are really being stingy with info right now and I have no idea why.
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ConCorDian
  
Joined: 15 Jun 2011
Posts: 1521 on topic
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 16:11 Post subject: |
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| Rabiator der II. wrote: |
Yes, the development effort might be considerable, as you'd need most of the features of a real MMO. Maybe you could skip things like the auction house. Among a handful of friends playing together I could see it working that you just drop cargo for your friends to pick up, without cheatiung each other .
About being online together:
Not necessarily, I could imagine the game running on a private server and game time starting to run as soon as one player logs in. Again, that would require friends playing together, else AFK kills of other players' stuff might become the norm.
Real MMOs like EVE go to considerable lengths to give players a chance at defending their stuff, but a CoOp might be able to get away without that |
thing is if you run the game on a only one player needs to be present basis, that means youd need to hold the saved game on the server a bit like how the DiD system works... because if everyone isnt online at the same time the saved games on each computer wouldnt be in sync. for me that would mean you would be better trying to have a system where the coop players are there at the same time. it would also kill off the idea of one player destroying another players assests when its in NPC hands.
reason i like the idea of being able to have certain assests being "portable" to a server, you wouldnt build stations on these sectors, you could possibly mobile mine if you choose, take a small combat or trading fleet and so on, but on exit of those sectors your game could save and youd be back to single player mode with no assests online, means saved game compatibility would be down to a minimum, only thing youd need to make sure is your running a Vanilla game, or at least the exact same scripts and so on as the other players... so you couldnt come across some XRM/XTC M0 dreadnaught when you cant get anything that powerful. there would be some NPC stations online so you could take some wares with you, and sell them or buy others or you could perhaps goto a "Transfer Dock" where you could directly transfer wares between players for credits or other wares... but beware the player Pirates who would try to cap your ship for the loot...
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Rabiator der II.
Joined: 14 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 16:21 Post subject: |
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| ConCorDian wrote: |
thing is if you run the game on a only one player needs to be present basis, that means youd need to hold the saved game on the server a bit like how the DiD system works... because if everyone isnt online at the same time the saved games on each computer wouldnt be in sync. for me that would mean you would be better trying to have a system where the coop players are there at the same time. it would also kill off the idea of one player destroying another players assests when its in NPC hands.
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Yes, I was assuming that one server holds all the game data.
Distributing those over the players' computers sounds like a synchronisation nightmare. My instincts as a software developer would be to run, not walk away from such a design .
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squirrelrider
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 16:27 Post subject: |
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Just in case you guys forgot... Bernd already said there won't be a MP.
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I'm naturally unfriendly sometimes. Don't take what I say too badly.
          Spamming smileys till X rebirth comes out. |
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NLS
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 439 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 16:31 Post subject: |
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Is that the only thing they forget? 
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NLS |
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wwdragon
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 248 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 17:58 Post subject: |
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On topic.... I'd like to see recon drones useable out to any distance from your ship. Like being able to explore an entire gate/highway network, the surrounding areas and the in-between asteroid fields.
It would also be nice if the recon drone auto pathed back to me and docked, so I could us it again.
Then after it's done, I would disconnect (when doing it manually) and use my ship to go where I found something cool. 
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Editing posts like a madman since long before I remember. |
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bluenog143
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 617 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 18:08 Post subject: |
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| ConCorDian wrote: |
there is a few points being missed though...
1. balance... if nothing is spawned, how does the computer find a balance to its own power in order to make the game challenging to you but not too bad for the novice who picked it up for the first time. these forums have a wide variety of different skill levels in different aspects of the game... by having some "spawnable" ships it can keep the game challenging for all... what your suggesting would make the game seem damned near impossible at the start and possibly far too easy at the end (if you build a corporation)
2. the true "indestructable" enemies were due to a glitch, the ships that never died, hit 0 percent hull and just kept on flying!! whereas yes the constant respawn of ships is kinda annoying... but the Kha'ak more annoyed me when they randomly spawned near one of my stations!!
3. sector take over i do like, i will admit it, BUT what happens if you as the player manage to "Take Over" every sector in the game? thats kind of game over... defeats the purpose of having a Sandbox game if it is ended in a way for you. also you need to keep in mind (as i have had to be reminded a good few times) this is not a galactic conquest game, its an economic sim!
4. this is where you will get a lot of conflicting interests.... for one, there are people on here (myself being one of them) who have fleets large enough to systematically wipe out the main races... how does that not make you one of the "big players"? but there is also the side to the story of the player NOT being a big player, your relativly insignificant, or should be to the overall grand scheme of things. too often is the player put in the situation of being the "Hero of the Universe" or the one that "Gets the Gal(or guy dependant on your gender or sexual preferance )" id rather we weren't the big person, the little guy who needs to work for a living... yeh your a corporation, but should be a small one compaired to what the big NPC ones are capible of!! |
Well that's just it about X. What I would want in my game might be different than what you or someone else would want, but the good news is that X:R will be moddable so we can "have it our own way". But for my explanations;
1) Maybe, but I think it keeps the game "fair" and "balanced" because the AI/NPC's will now be competing with the player, but on the player level. So perse you are playing as a trader. Your competition will be other traders. Once you build up then competition will be other companies with their stations and such. I personally think that since everything needs to be produced and paid for by the AI just as things will need to be bought and paid for by the player, that it will balance the game out. I thought that fighting in X3AP was pointless because if I destroyed an entire fleet, another one would just spawn right out of nothing. It's like fighting an enemy that can't lose, that is the ultimate inbalance in my opinion (again, personal preference).
2) I remember that glitch, but that was fixed if I remember. What I didn't like was how ships would just spawn (probably from the jobs.txt file). Like I said above, I think that it's unbalanced to fight them when they will never be defeated. The Kha'ak for example could at least use nividium as a resource with ships built at Kha'ak stations.
3) Well it can be a galactic conquest sim of the player wants it (it puts the fight in "trade, fight, build, think") so that is also personal preference.And actually it wouldn't be "gameover" and here is why. It's not like the entire space will be empty, because with a dynamic game things can change even without the player's action. In this case though perse if the player did takeover the entire space, NPC factories and traders could be replaced with player-controlled factories and stations. Balance-wise though I think that in X:R governments should be a LOT more powerful than they were in X3 (they are governments after all right?).
4) That's true, but I think it would add to the game if the player could actually have the corporation name, logo, headquarters, a GUI for coordination and control, etc. that's what I mean. And the big corps from X3 should also be strong in X:R (since they are the biggest).
To be honest I'm not betting that anything dynamic like this will be added in to the game. I'm thinking of making a mod that does that (plus some other bonuses) which I think would be great for X:R (but I'd have to play it first). And I'd have to seriously tighten up my coding skills to write something like that but if I can get a headstart now plus with X:R modding docs then hopefully I can get it done.
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^Both sigs are the same with the same link, they just have different colors.
| SinisterDeath wrote: |
This reminds me of something...
"I don't believe in GoD, but GoD sure believes in blowing up my factories."
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ConCorDian
Joined: 15 Jun 2011
Posts: 1521 on topic
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 18:39 Post subject: |
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| squirrelrider wrote: |
| Just in case you guys forgot... Bernd already said there won't be a MP. |
| NLS wrote: |
| Is that the only thing they forget? |
seriously? are we going to go down this road again and have topics derail? remind me what the topic is? its not asking what will be IN Rebirth but what WE would LIKE to be IN Rebirth!! so no we aint forgot anything... and ill admit im starting to get seriously pissed with naysayers on here who dont actually contribute to conversations but just try to put others down!!
| Rabiator der II. wrote: |
Yes, I was assuming that one server holds all the game data.
Distributing those over the players' computers sounds like a synchronisation nightmare. My instincts as a software developer would be to run, not walk away from such a design . |
your right of course... never thought about it from the other angle... thing is with the extent of X, and obviously it NOT being MMO but just multiplayer functionality, wont that mean the servers would end up with a heck of a lot of data saved? tons of settings, different game etc?
| bluenog143 wrote: |
| .............. |
im not disagreeing with what your saying, i actually in principle agree with the idea, infact i more than agree with it ive came up with similar things in the past in speculitive threads for improvements to X3... but what always seems to come out of the arguement is more or less what ive thrown back at you. for all many would probably like and agree with what your saying the issue seems to be more to the implementation of the idea...
how do you create a sort of balance, obviously the main races would grow at a certain rate dependant on what happens throughout the game, but that rate would need to be balanced, because if they grow too quickly new players who arent that good yet, people still learning would struggle to keep up with that growth, but if it moves too slow more experianced players could effectivly cripple the main races early on and gain huge advantages to the extent they find the game too easy. but how can you make the game grow at varying rates of difficulty when the AI is dependant on resources? they wont be able to build weapons plants without resources, or their ships, and if there is no spawning its not like they could catch up with proper experianced players if they start moving ahead.
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check out Roguey's Wiki - still under development |
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squirrelrider
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 18:46 Post subject: |
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| ConCorDian wrote: |
| squirrelrider wrote: |
| Just in case you guys forgot... Bernd already said there won't be a MP. |
| NLS wrote: |
| Is that the only thing they forget? |
seriously? are we going to go down this road again and have topics derail? remind me what the topic is? its not asking what will be IN Rebirth but what WE would LIKE to be IN Rebirth!! so no we aint forgot anything... and ill admit im starting to get seriously pissed with naysayers on here who dont actually contribute to conversations but just try to put others down!!
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You want rebirth to have MP... I'm just saying you can want it all you like, there won't be a MP. No derail, no nothing.
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I'm naturally unfriendly sometimes. Don't take what I say too badly.
Spamming smileys till X rebirth comes out. |
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Nanook
Moderator (English)
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 22544 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 19:21 Post subject: |
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| squirrelrider wrote: |
| ConCorDian wrote: |
| squirrelrider wrote: |
| Just in case you guys forgot... Bernd already said there won't be a MP. |
| NLS wrote: |
| Is that the only thing they forget? |
seriously? are we going to go down this road again and have topics derail? remind me what the topic is? its not asking what will be IN Rebirth but what WE would LIKE to be IN Rebirth!! so no we aint forgot anything... and ill admit im starting to get seriously pissed with naysayers on here who dont actually contribute to conversations but just try to put others down!!
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You want rebirth to have MP... I'm just saying you can want it all you like, there won't be a MP. No derail, no nothing. |
squirrelrider is correct. It's pointless to discuss something 'you want' in Rebirth when you've already been told it won't happen. Sounds like squirrelrider isn't the one derailing the thread.
Feel free to discuss whatever you want, but let's not turn this into yet another pointless multiplayer thread. And ConCorDian, it sounds to me like you're the only one trying to put others down. I'd refrain from getting personal, if I were you.
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Aegyen
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 245 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 19:49 Post subject: |
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I don't know about the rest of you, but there IS one thing I'd like to have from Rebirth now!
Wo sind weitere screenshots? (Where are more screenshots?)
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bluenog143
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 617 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 26. Jun 12, 19:52 Post subject: |
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| ConCorDian wrote: |
| bluenog143 wrote: |
| .............. |
im not disagreeing with what your saying, i actually in principle agree with the idea, infact i more than agree with it ive came up with similar things in the past in speculitive threads for improvements to X3... but what always seems to come out of the arguement is more or less what ive thrown back at you. for all many would probably like and agree with what your saying the issue seems to be more to the implementation of the idea...
how do you create a sort of balance, obviously the main races would grow at a certain rate dependant on what happens throughout the game, but that rate would need to be balanced, because if they grow too quickly new players who arent that good yet, people still learning would struggle to keep up with that growth, but if it moves too slow more experianced players could effectivly cripple the main races early on and gain huge advantages to the extent they find the game too easy. but how can you make the game grow at varying rates of difficulty when the AI is dependant on resources? they wont be able to build weapons plants without resources, or their ships, and if there is no spawning its not like they could catch up with proper experianced players if they start moving ahead. |
Well for one, I think that each race/faction should have custom behavior. I think that was hardcoded in X3 though, so if that's the case for X:R then it will be make things tougher (although not impossible). How advanced those behaviors are could be "barely even need to play the game to win" or "nearly impossible to do anything" and everything in between. Of course since I haven't coded anything like that it sounds easy but coding it so that it all works and flows will probably take some time and work.
Thus, I think the something I could do to balance also would be game starts (if they will work with X:R). In a custom game start the main race's/faction's can be set up to a point that they are balanced (such as how much money and wares they own and control). To a certain point that everything is positioned in a way to maintain the desired balance (from trade routes to station placements, to what kind of stations, etc.). And then some options like dynamic race wars could be disabled. Also, the Dynamic AI could be programmed with limits (such as, don't build more than XYZ amount of stations/ships, etc.)
I agree that it sounds like a good idea but there are many things to consider that would probably take at least months to code it all in with a team working regularly. First I'd have to play the game and see what it has. After that, if I think it is lacking on one or more of these features then I'd need to see what I could do to add to the game (and clearly define what it's supposed to do). Then I'd need to implement them into the game and how these scripts are supposed to intereact with each other/ their structure. Then test and tweak them until I finally think it's ready for a release. Although I'm getting way ahead of myself, I think if I could make it work then it would be a great mod (unless X:R already has these dynamic features).
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^Both sigs are the same with the same link, they just have different colors.
| SinisterDeath wrote: |
This reminds me of something...
"I don't believe in GoD, but GoD sure believes in blowing up my factories."
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ConCorDian
Joined: 15 Jun 2011
Posts: 1521 on topic
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
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| Posted: Wed, 27. Jun 12, 02:03 Post subject: |
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well if things arent like that in rebirth and you do manage to mod it in ill defo give it a bash because i do like the idea and i would be interested in seeing how well it works in practice. but ill be resigning away from the forums for a while anyways... to be honest its becoming a mine field, and im starting to reach a point where ill end up saying stuff which will get me banned from the forums... so happy speculating, once rebirth is released and things calm down (if they do) ill see about coming back and adding in my 2 cents...
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