Combat Tricks: Increasing Combat Challenge (OBS Mod and Guide)

[joelR]

DrBullwinkle.

I looked at line 711 in the OBS file from http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=327293

but there is nothing there? The nearest match is line 1013. Has the mod changed since you wrote this?

[DrBullwinkle]

The change for line 711 is for the vanilla OBS (line 723 in AP 3.0).

AOBS is an easy install, but it did not work as well (for me) as just modifying line 723.

To perform the same adjustment on AOBS 1.02, it looks like line 1092 to me.

EDIT: Updated OP.

[joelR]

The change for line 711 is for the vanilla OBS (line 723 in AP 3.0).

AOBS is an easy install, but it did not work as well (for me) as just modifying line 723.

To perform the same adjustment on AOBS 1.02, it looks like line 1092 to me.

Ok I misread your post. I thought you were refering to editing the aobs obs file.

[vr01]

DrB, I know it has been well over a year since you started this but do you have the 1.0 disc version of TC? If you do you should install a copy, patch it to 1.2 and check out OBS. 1.2 produced insane amounts of enemies (I can remember in my Vidar having to take on over 150 Xenon ships in one mission, mostly P's) but boy was it fun! Unfortunately it was too much for some and they toned it down for 1.3.

[DrBullwinkle]

That is an interesting tip, vr01!

It turns out that OBS 1.0 is still in the 03.cat file in the TC folder, so it was easy to find. But, wow, sooooo much has changed since 1.0! It would be nearly impossible to reverse only the changes related to stronger enemies.

Perhaps, as my MD-fu improves, I may be able to improve OBS in the future. For now, however, the simple change to line 723/711 works pretty well.

Thank you for the tip.

[joelR]

Yes I certainly remember those original builds. Crazy stuff.

[vr01]

That is an interesting tip, vr01!

It turns out that OBS 1.0 is still in the 03.cat file in the TC folder, so it was easy to find. But, wow, sooooo much has changed since 1.0! It would be nearly impossible to reverse only the changes related to stronger enemies.

Perhaps, as my MD-fu improves, I may be able to improve OBS in the future. For now, however, the simple change to line 723/711 works pretty well.

Thank you for the tip.

This should help you understand what it does...

[TC] O B S

[DrBullwinkle]

Oh, I know what it does; more or less. Following code written by somebody else is an entirely different thing.

(And thanks.)

[DrBullwinkle]

More on OBS:

I have given this quite a bit of thought ever since I started playing the game, and I am fairly confident that OBS, alone, cannot provide the kind of combat challenge that I desire.



The Problem with Fight Rank
The core of the problem is that there is no good way for the game to guess exactly how much challenge the player may desire.

OBS tries to calculate challenge based on fight rank. But the problem with that is that timid players often have *higher* fight rank than highly skilled pilots! Why? Because the better pilots tend to board and capture their prey rather than kill it. Timid players just grab an M2 or M7M and kill everything in sight -- there is not much challenge in that! (But it does lead to high fight rank).

An alternative is to try to scale combat based on the strength of the player's fleet -- either in-sector or overall. This has the same problem as fight rank: Timid players often have stronger ships. Top-Gun pilots use smaller ships for the greater challenge.



Just ask
So we really need a *different* way to figure out just how much challenge the player wants. The best idea that I have had is to let the player decide; just like almost every other game in existence.

I can probably create a setting somewhere that allows the player to choose Easy, Normal, Hardcore, or Insanity mode. Then I can probably make OBS respond to that setting.



Other thoughts
Of course, not everything uses OBS. It is mostly used by generic missions -- plots often use their own scaling. And random enemies spawned by Jobs is yet a different system.

Ulfius made Hard Mode and Xtreme Mode Jobs packs for TC, which I mention above. However, they will not work well with AP. Also, they tend to produce too many small ships rather than more big ships and missile boats.

So there is room for finding a better way to scale other kinds of opponents. But asking the player (and adjusting OBS accordingly) may be a good start.

[joelR]

I totally support some menu driven option for mission difficulty. The only issue I can forsee is how to word it to maintain some sort of immersion.

Ive always been bothered by the way the game handles it. It makes sense from a certain perspective but after playing the game as long as many of us have, you sort of already know what you will be getting. Sometimes I want a stupidly insane battle to spawn even after a brand new start because those big fleet battles are fun to watch and participate in with the AI. For me combat missions arent that much about increasing rep but about having a battle when I want to take a break from looking for one; among other reasons.

Fleet composition is another thing. What does the player want? M6 with supporting fighters? Gang of pirate M5? M4? M3? A mix? Maybe an XRM Pteranodon? Etc...

An option for a randomised fleet would be a good idea as well.

Just a few thoughts.

[DrBullwinkle]

Yes, fleet composition is vital for an effective scaling system.

I did a lot of tests in TC, and I found that about 10 M2's is pretty much as hard as the game can be (other than missile boats). The reason is that additional ships just spend most of their time in collision avoidance.

So the difference in challenge between 10x M2's and, say, 200 ships with a mix of classes, is just your endurance. As long as you do not "choke" (or run out of missiles or ammunition), then you can kill 200 as easily as 10.

Two hundred ships do, however, contribute greatly to lag.

What this means for fleet composition is that, on higher levels, the scaling system should spawn more large capital ships and fewer small ships. Whether "large" means M6, M7, M1, or M2 -- that part can be left up to OBS. But the numbers and fleet composition -- those need some adjustment beyond vanilla OBS.

[vr01]

Sorry meant to say it as understand what changes have been made rather than understand how it works.

Personally I think Egosoft had the right idea with OBS until they turned it down because of the amount of ships it was generating and now it doesn't create much of a challenge regardless of whether you are looking for one or not.

OBS does give some good pointers for DrB's OBS.

Her are some settings you could consider:

• Consider player ship - ship the player is in when they accept the mission
  Consider player in sector fighting assets
  Consider player fighting assets within x sectors
  Consider all player fighting assets
  Allow M1's
  Allow M2's
  Allow M7M's
  Allow M8's
  Always use bigships (M1/2/7/7M)
  Limit number of enemies to x ships
  Limit number of enemies bigships to x ships

[DrBullwinkle]

Yes, those factors are useful but not sufficient.

*None* of those factors deal with the fact that players who want a challenge often have lower rank and fewer assets than players who want easier combat.

However, a combination of those factors along with asking the player will probably suffice. As suggested, we should make the player choice non-intrusive.

[RoverTX]

Hey Doc in the first post you said that 5 to 25 for the multiplier is good for TC and 2 to 10 was good for AP. Does that still hold, or with the updates sense in AP and even TC has that number changed at all?

Also would 10 be a good number if I wanted to keep the multiplier static through out the play through for AP, or should I aim for 5 instead?

[DrBullwinkle]

The last major change to OBS was in May 2010.

I have not found a static number that works perfectly throughout an entire game. As you can imagine, testing that takes a very long time.

If you can survive the early game with a setting of 10, then that might be OK for you. You will know, soon enough, if it is too much.

I usually adjust it when it "feels" way off. If I start a new game and encounter Carracks and Q's while still flying an M4, then I adjust the number down a bit. If I play for a while and the game seems too easy, then I bump it up.

Right now I am experimenting with

Code: Select all

*(3+({player.fightrank.rank}/2))

That should result in an automatically-adjusting range of 3-15-ish, depending on the top fight rank I reach. I will not be able to tell you how "good" that is for several weeks, probably.



* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Note that there is an unavoidable side-effect of making OBS too strong, and that is that OOS invasions can become massive. I counter that with Drone Carrier Software 2 (DCS2), which scales with the threat. A pair of DCS-equipped M7's set to Defend Sector can handle most OOS invasions.

[RoverTX]

Does Fight rank start at 1 or 0?

[DrBullwinkle]

Zero = "Harmless", I think. Why do you ask?

[RoverTX]

29/2 = 14
30/2 = 15

[DrBullwinkle]

Right now I am experimenting with

Code: Select all

*(3+({player.fightrank.rank}/2))

That should result in an automatically-adjusting range of 3-15-ish, depending on the top fight rank I reach.

The max would be 18, but I never reach fight rank of 30. Usually low 20's, hence the "ish" part.

• (That is the crux of the problem with making OBS completely automatic -- experienced fighters tend to have *lower* fight rank than people who do not like to fight.)

[RoverTX]

If there are 30 ranks and they start at zero then the top one is going to be 29 not 30. I was just trying todo the math for myself, I didn't really want to go over 8 so was trying to figure out what to divide by.