closed loop complex...?

[jamafish]

what's everybody's opinions on closed loop complexes? I know they save tooons of money in the long run, but you have to keep in mind that by making these, you're effectively neglecting the local economy (and the lag...dear god the lag).

So ultimately, do you think it would be better to produce your own or buy local?

[StarSword]

I build closed-loops almost exclusively, and most of them earn money by trading intermediate goods like excess food, ore, and silicon (as opposed to the end product, like weapons). Their only real downside is that you have to pretrain the CAGs you use with them.

They don't necessarily hurt the local economy, either. The GOD engine doesn't care that you're only selling to the economy, only that you're trading with it. If there is an influx of goods, it will generate an outflux (is that a word?) of traders to move the goods.

And the lag can be minimized by systematically making your complexes compact* (instead of randomly dropping the stations into a spaghetti-plex) and sticking them in a secluded area of the sector, off the main trade lanes. (This also reduces pirate attacks, incidentally.)

You can also use mods such as tubeless complexes and Complex Cleaner, but this could earn you a *modified* tag.

* This guide explains the system I use. A variation for Terran stations, which tend to be boxy and compact, involves placing like stations in rows.

[perkint]

They aren't cheaper in the long run, necessarily. A self sufficient complex makes as many (of everything, but as an example) e-cells as it uses. You use those ecells and the only profit you make is from the end product. You put a CAG on the complex and he'll sell those ecells at 18 credits each and buy replacements from the NPCs at 12 ecells each. So you still get just as much resource towards your end product and an extra 7 credits per ecell used

Same theory applies to every one of your resources.

Closed, self sufficient complexes are simple and brainless. No ships roaming round to get shot at, no chance of running out of resources, etc. Also, not as profitable as if they are open, self sufficient complexes. and they don't help your trade and race ranks as much as they could!

Tim

[perkint]

@StarSword - just to clarify:

Closed loop - no trading with NPC
Self sufficient - makes everything it needs (even if it sells & buys from NPCs for extra profit)

Tim

[Frank Johnson]

I don't know what makes a complex closed or open but here is my exp

I built a zero upkeep complex that was supposed to produce ecells to sell. It also produces overflow silicon wafers and crystals. I have found the ecells are not selling nearly as well as the crystals. I have set the complex to intermediate and opened it to sell to NPCs. I am making bank on the crystals and sell a few ecells now and again.

I have never set a CAG to the complex but my UTs and STs and NPC pilots stop there all the time to buy the products.

I set the overflow stuff to average -1 and it sells no need for a CAG. When i get near max ecells(200,000) I set the price to 12 credits to sell them faster.

[StarSword]

@StarSword - just to clarify:

Closed loop - no trading with NPC
Self sufficient - makes everything it needs (even if it sells & buys from NPCs for extra profit)

Tim

Potato, potahto.

I guess by your definition, then, I build self-sufficient complexes. (Although only the complexes I've built since I added the Advanced Complex Hub mod allow NPC docking.)

[Palladin888]

The complex I built should only make around 600,000ish credits per hour based on stats from the online complex builder info but have seen it make over 5,000,000 per hour selling extra crystal.

My next one will produce more crystals and I hope it makes even more credits.....I'll need 42,000,000 credits to build it though and i am only halfway there.

I should just go ahead and throw down the food fabs and let them top off and sell till i can get the last 20,000,000 credits.

[rwhiteruff]

It depends. I like to use open-loop complexes sustained internally through mobile mining for my own needs. End products are utilized or sold on.

However, I've found that it's useful to have one moderate-to-large sized complex per 'region' that sucks up lots of local materials and sells on to NPCs, to keep the local economy going. For example, I have a 20x1MJ Shield complex in Argon Prime and it buys lots of local Cahoona Steaks, energy cells, and ore locally.

The latter aren't strictly necessary, but having a network of local traders working along with a completely open complex can keep a region's economy well exercised.

[jamafish]

rwhiteruff's post is what I'm really wondering about. Does making sure that that you're buying tons of stuff from the local area stimulate the rest of the game world so that more people can buy your end products?

So using that 20 x 1MJ example, does buying up all of those energy cells, cahoonas, ore make it so that the game world can buy more of your 1MJ shields? Or does everybody in the X universe just happen to have infinite money and it doesn't matter?

[Ebonyfly]

Buying energy, ore and food only stimulates the economy to the extent that it encourages GoD to create more such factories. However, this is of limited value since there always a surplus of energy and ore suppliers anyway.

Buying too much food for your factories can even harm the economy if it creates a shortage of food for NPCs factories.

In my view the best way to stimulate the economy is to buy AND sell energy and ore (and to a lesser extent food) as this keeps NPC stations running and NPC traders are not up to the task on their own.

[StarSword]

Which I find to be a side benefit of having a self-sufficient complex fed with CAGs. They both buy and sell resources from the NPCs. Sometimes they'll even buy goods, transfer them to the complex, then transfer them right back and sell them for a net profit.

[Chiumanfu]

You put a CAG on the complex and he'll sell those ecells at 18 credits each and buy replacements from the NPCs at 12 ecells each. So you still get just as much resource towards your end product and an extra 7 credits per ecell used

How exactly do you set this up? I only see one place in the station trade window to set the buy/sell price.

I agree with Ebonyfly. I also have a 1MJ shield plex in AP but I've added a self sufficient energy loop that over produces. The extra energy in the area seems to be helping as all the local weapons fabs seem to have better stock than before.

[Ebonyfly]

How exactly do you set this up? I only see one place in the station trade window to set the buy/sell price.

Your CAGs will always look for the best price regardless, ie low for buying, high for selling. The station price simply acts as a limit to the range of prices at whch they can trade. So even if you set the price at average your CAGs will still look for profit*.


* or profitsss if Teladi.

[jamafish]

But thing is, who actually is buying the end products I'm producing? and where do they get the money to buy my stuff from?

For resources, that's pretty straightforward, any factories that need them,but for things like weapons and shields, my CAG traders will usually sell them to the nearest military outpost or equipment dock.

But then who buys from the outposts and docks? random fighters and capital ships who happen to have an overabundance of money?

Going back to the 20 x 1MJ shield complex, in AP, wouldn't that have a huge backlog? How is it able to sell it all? What limits how much will be bought from one place?

[Threesixtyci]

The tubeless mod shouldn't trigger the ***mod*** title.
But, I'm not 100% sure.

[StarSword]

But thing is, who actually is buying the end products I'm producing? and where do they get the money to buy my stuff from?

Various NPC stations, and magic. (The NPCs don't actually use money to trade among themselves, just with the player, for which it is magicked into existence.)

For resources, that's pretty straightforward, any factories that need them,but for things like weapons and shields, my CAG traders will usually sell them to the nearest military outpost or equipment dock.

But then who buys from the outposts and docks? random fighters and capital ships who happen to have an overabundance of money?

Besides NPC traders who will scoop up the items to sell at higher prices elsewhere, items sold to EQ docks and such are known to gradually disappear. This reduces the potential for overstock.

Going back to the 20 x 1MJ shield complex, in AP, wouldn't that have a huge backlog? How is it able to sell it all? What limits how much will be bought from one place?

For whatever reason, the NPCs can't get enough of 1 MJ shields. (Don't know why; they're no good for anything except M5.) Also, the many docks that buy 1 MJ shields have extremely large capacities for them (in excess of 1,500, I believe).

Honestly, nobody knows what the NPCs do with 1 MJ shields, impulse ray emitters, microchips and computer components, quantum tubes, etc. All we know is they buy them in vast quantities and consume them ... somehow.

[jamafish]

Haaa... I see, so much for mimicking a real economy.

another question though, if you want NPC traders / consumers to buy directly from your complexes, does the location of the complex (place in sector, place of sector in universe) matter?

[StarSword]

Haaa... I see, so much for mimicking a real economy.

As I understand it, it's meant to look like a real economy from the outside while reducing the strain on the already overburdened CPU. The main reason we know about these things is large amounts of testing and modding from the more analytical board members.

another question though, if you want NPC traders / consumers to buy directly from your complexes, does the location of the complex (place in sector, place of sector in universe) matter?

Not particularly. I typically build away from the main trade lanes (generally straight lines between gates) to reduce pirate attacks and complex-related lag, and it has little effect on whether NPC traders frequent it. If the complex exists and is open to NPC traders, they'll find it.

I've heard there's a connection between ships labeled <race> Recon <M5> finding the station and NPC traders finding it.

[David Howland]

jamafish,
If you were wanting to manipulate NPC demands, you cannot see or do but ES does a good job representing the economy you cannot see.
If you imagine the goods needed for the space economy the three biggest final demand areas would be:-
1. Finished products and minerals for the planet, most sectors have at least one populated planet and the sector would not be there if the planet did not think it worth exploiting.
2. The biggest demand in space for all resources are the stations those highly automated kits have to contain the goods to build a structure to keep hundreds of beings alive, working and producing. You get a snap shot of what is needed when you do the Hub Plot and remember when you are wondering when its going to end. You are only supplying the resources for minor repairs.
3. The Next biggest Demand in space are ships, nothing can get done in the vacuum of space without airtight, powerful transport. Of course the resources and products needed are again hugely simplified. We are however again given a snapshot of what is needed when you get a PHQ! Believe you me, you will be glad what is needed is hugely simplified when you are building a fleet of Arans!

It is only a game but it does give you a couple of snapshots of simplified systems and when you run an empire like mine you will be glad it is simplified!

[jamafish]

Hmm, gotcha, by the way, IS there a relationshp between how many planets are in the system and how high demand for resources / products is?