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[POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?
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Would you purchase Rebirth if Steam is required...
Just for activation
8%
 8%  [ 210 ]
For activation and updates
62%
 62%  [ 1478 ]
I would never use Steam if it was the last surviving games platform
25%
 25%  [ 603 ]
If Steam required periodic log-ins to check your install
2%
 2%  [ 62 ]
Total Votes : 2353

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Jumee





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 11:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
But here it is. Some people dislike the DRM and account tying nature of steam, believing that they shouldn't need to have to run steam to play games they've purchased. And they believe they have the right of resale. I'm not going to argue this one with you, as it is merely a matter of opinion, and I'm sure you have a different opinion. Nevertheless, for those people, it is a valid reason to boycott steam as a principled protest against those features of steam. Again, whether games are $2 or $200 doesn't matter in such a situation, as it's the principle that counts.


it has been stated like billion times (basically every time someone brings up this point) that steam does not force DRM there are games on steam that can be played without even turning the client on, and the right to resale thing might also end up being added to steam, and afaik at the moment no digital distribution allows resale (GoG included)

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Rabiator der II.





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 11:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Slashman wrote:
There are only a handful of games that I can say that I would play decades after they are released. And for those games, I honestly would rather buy a digital distro version than go through the hassle of DOS emulators and all the other crap just to run a game from a floppy or old CD.

A lot of older games get re-released. I have the Freespace 2 box sitting right in front of me now as well as the original Dawn of War and Freedom Force boxes. If I really want to play those games again I'll head to Steam, GOG or GMG and buy a digital copy for a couple bucks. I also own the original Syndicate on floppy...GOG recently released it for sale.

Steam goes offline or not...it will not stop me from gaming.

I prefer to have a version where I don't have to rely on the continued availability of a third party's service. So I would rather set up DOSbox myself than get a Steam version.
Now GOG releases are DRM free, so that is one digital distro version I could agree with Smile.
If all else fails, maybe I can get Rebirth from GOG the way I like it. In 2020 or so Wink .

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eladan





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 11:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jumee wrote:
it has been stated like billion times (basically every time someone brings up this point) that steam does not force DRM there are games on steam that can be played without even turning the client on

There may be a handful (more or less) but the standard steam practice is for their client to be required.

Quote:
and the right to resale thing might also end up being added to steam, and afaik at the moment no digital distribution allows resale (GoG included)

Also been there earlier in the thread, which is another topic I'd like not to rehash. Let's just say that there are differing views on the validity and legality of EULAs which have yet to be thoroughly tested by law and leave it at that.

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Jumee





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 13:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
There may be a handful (more or less) but the standard steam practice is for their client to be required.


and you know this how? care to give a source or a link? my opinion (steam only gives an option to provide DRM does not force developers to use it) is based on the fact that there are Steam games with no DRM, what is yours based on?

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AgamemnonArgon



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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 13:30    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nope.
When I buy something it is mine to use, and I want plug and play right away.


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eladan





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 13:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jumee wrote:
and you know this how? care to give a source or a link? my opinion (steam only gives an option to provide DRM does not force developers to use it) is based on the fact that there are Steam games with no DRM, what is yours based on?

Confused

Because it's common knowledge? Note that we are talking about the steam client as DRM here, not about DRM added on top of that.

I am currently unaware of any games on the steam library that do not require the steam client to be installed (and running.) Not sure whether the games can be run from the executable or not with steam in offline mode. I believe that Sword of the Stars was previously able to, but changes have since been made that require steam.

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Jumee





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
I am currently unaware of any games on the steam library that do not require the steam client to be installed (and running.)


gratuitous space battles is a game that can run without turning on steam client, sure you will have to install steam at least once to download the game, but after that you can play it without ever turning steam on (you could probably even delete steam and it would still run), there were several other titles too (someone listed them here in older thread incarnations dont remember who exactly)

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eladan





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 14:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jumee wrote:
gratuitous space battles is a game that can run without turning on steam client

Interesting. Thanks.

Quote:
sure you will have to install steam at least once to download the game, but after that you can play it without ever turning steam on (you could probably even delete steam and it would still run), there were several other titles too (someone listed them here in older thread incarnations dont remember who exactly)

Bear in mind that requiring the steam client to download and install is itself still DRM. Again, it's a system which stops me from being able to do what I do with GOG games - download on one PC and transfer files/install on a second non-net connected PC. That is the definition of DRM, that it stops you doing things you would otherwise be able to do with unencumbered games.

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TEKing66





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 14:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Evochron Mercenary is a game available on Steam that can be played without the Steam client running. I am 100% sure of this as I have the game and have played without Steam running.

Edit: Once you own the game you can go to Starwraith games and download the full game, completely Steam free. Of course, you can always buy straight from them and avoid Steam altogether.


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Jumee





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 15:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
Bear in mind that requiring the steam client to download and install is itself still DRM. Again, it's a system which stops me from being able to do what I do with GOG games - download on one PC and transfer files/install on a second non-net connected PC. That is the definition of DRM, that it stops you doing things you would otherwise be able to do with unencumbered games.


theoretically if you download the game on another computer and copy over the entire folder no the PC you want to have the game on than instead of downloading the whole game it will just verify existing files and should run straightaway (while you still need to have some sort of internet connection it is still an option for people with slow connection on their gaming pc)

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Rabiator der II.





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 15:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
Bear in mind that requiring the steam client to download and install is itself still DRM. Again, it's a system which stops me from being able to do what I do with GOG games - download on one PC and transfer files/install on a second non-net connected PC. That is the definition of DRM, that it stops you doing things you would otherwise be able to do with unencumbered games.

I think there is a fine difference between being not helpful in moving the installed game to another computer (or making a viable backup) and actively obstructing the user.

An example of the former would be an installer that writes some necessary configuration data directly into the Windows registry (yes those are common Rolling Eyes ). In that case you'd need to do all of the following to run the game on another computer:
    -backup the installation directory
    -extract the configuration data for the game from the registry as well and keep them with the backup
    Upon "installation",
    -copy the installation directory to the new computer
    -copy the registry data to the registry of the new computer, if necessary edit them so they fit changed directories etc...
    -manually re-create the shortcuts for starting the game

Is that a PITA? For sure, and it is reason enough that I prefer to reinstall a borked computer from scratch if I have the choice.

Is it DRM? No. DRM starts at the point where the publisher/developer adds code to the game that actively tries to prevent the above. For instance by demanding a login and then calling the Steam server to determine if the user is authorized to play the game. Or (like some older offline copy protections) demands the original CD and checks it for some obscure markers.
Intent matters here, even if sloppy programming and active obfuscation may be hard to distinguish at times Wink

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Slashman





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 17:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Some things that we have already established as strikes against Steam in this thread.

1) It does not favour the user with a very limited or non-existent internet connection.

This isn't as relevant to the person buying a game digitally in the first place, but for the guy who buys a box and discovers that he needs the net to begin play, it is a factor. Or for the person who just prefers to play completely standalone.

2) The method of updating is a problem for some folks. Steam doesn't 'patch', it simply updates the game files required to bring the game to the latest version. Some folks like to be able to run earlier patch versions of the game. A number of developers generally think that creating standalone patches is a PITA and prefer a system where everyone is likely to be running the latest game version.

3) Following on numbers 1 and 2 is the idea of 'forced' updates. If your net is lousy, downloading even a 30 meg patch can be frustrating.

Just some of the legitimate concerns that have been expressed and which I think are actually relevant as well since some people really do have internet limitations.


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TEKing66





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 18:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I think everyone know's that I am not a Steam fan. Would much rather not have to deal with as to. But, I would like to say that running Steam from an external hard drive, I have had no real issues (sometimes frustrating, yes) using my games on a slow dial-up connected PC. The biggest issue was just getting connected to Steam over the dial-up connection to verify the PC. But, I found if I waited until late a night, it could be done. Once the PC was verified, I probably started and stopped the Steam client at least a couple of hundred times. And Steam never failed to go into offline mode. I was very impressed, remembering back to my last dealing with Steam that was a big issue (10 years ago).

Steam can be used with a dial-up connection, yes. But, it does require a lot of effort on the dial-up users side to do it. And, most of the info required is not on Steams tech site, nor will tech support tell you how to go about it. You will not find any mention that Steam can be run from an external hard drive. But it will work. I'm sure some of you have put up with and tolerated my rant's more than once concerning dial-up and Steam. And even though I do now have satellite broadband and Steam is not really a big issue anymore. I personally do not like it, can't say that I ever will. Tolerate, I guess if I must. But, I will always prefer my games free of Steam or anything similar.

Call me "ol' fashion" if you want. But, if I must put up with Steam then I just be call me "ol' fashion & cheap". Because I'll deal with Steam but only if it gets me really cheap games. And I can be a very patient fellow, old age does that to you (not that I'm THAT old). Very Happy


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eladan





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PostPosted: Tue, 6. Nov 12, 00:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Rabiator der II. wrote:
I think there is a fine difference between being not helpful in moving the installed game to another computer (or making a viable backup) and actively obstructing the user.

You do have a point there, I agree - I should have included intent in the definition of DRM.

Quote:
Is it DRM? No. DRM starts at the point where the publisher/developer adds code to the game that actively tries to prevent the above. For instance by demanding a login and then calling the Steam server to determine if the user is authorized to play the game.

That is the issue though, isn't it? I need the steam installer to install a steam game, and it won't work without a net connection because it wants to phone home. I understand this is true even if I have a retail copy of a game which uses steam - it still needs to connect to steam before it will let you install files from the CD.

Now whether it might be possible to install a steam game on a connected PC and put steam in offline mode, then do all of the stuff you mentioned to transfer it to a non-connected PC with steam installed in offline mode, I don't know. But that's a pretty extreme attempt to end run around the real issue, that steam needs to connect to verify ownership on install. That is intentional, and I don't think there can be any doubt it's DRM.

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Rabiator der II.





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PostPosted: Tue, 6. Nov 12, 01:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

eladan wrote:
Now whether it might be possible to install a steam game on a connected PC and put steam in offline mode, then do all of the stuff you mentioned to transfer it to a non-connected PC with steam installed in offline mode, I don't know. But that's a pretty extreme attempt to end run around the real issue, that steam needs to connect to verify ownership on install. That is intentional, and I don't think there can be any doubt it's DRM.

Agreed, having to connect is the normal case in Steam and offline mode seems to be more of a temporary concession to the players.

There are also varying reports in online forums about how long offline mode worked for people. For some it seems to work permanently, others wrote that their games only worked offline for a few days and then demanded a login again.

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