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[POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?
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Would you purchase Rebirth if Steam is required...
Just for activation
8%
 8%  [ 210 ]
For activation and updates
62%
 62%  [ 1478 ]
I would never use Steam if it was the last surviving games platform
25%
 25%  [ 603 ]
If Steam required periodic log-ins to check your install
2%
 2%  [ 62 ]
Total Votes : 2353

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TTD





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PostPosted: Thu, 6. Oct 11, 10:05    Post subject: [POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth? Reply with quote Print

At the suggestion of a forum member ,I thought "Why not?"

So...

Steam ...

If we have to have a Steam account in order to activate Rebirth...What are your thoughts?

I know many have expressed with comments,but this is a poll in order to see at a glance what the response is.


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Nanook
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PostPosted: Thu, 5. Jan 12, 19:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

All old posts split from original Steam poll thread are located here: Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'.

EDIT: Round 2 now split and archived.

EDIT: Part three of Steam debate - split and archived

EDIT: Part four of Steam debate - split and archived.

As stated at the end of the locked portion, feel free to quote and comment on any current discussions/debates. For the reason for this split, please read the last post in that thread. Have fun. Smile


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quase





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PostPosted: Sun, 4. Nov 12, 20:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Slashman wrote:
quase wrote:

I was talking about independent game developers, why would I limit that to the PC?

Because we all game on PC. Steam is not a console-centric service. And the fact that consoles have no relevance to this discussion. At no time in the past hundreds of pages of this thread, have we gone on the premise that a console release would satisfy PC gaming enthusiasts past the point of Burneyx saying he was going to buy Skyrim on console.

All of a sudden, a XBLA release counts as sufficient multi-platform support to negate a Steam-only PC release. I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing about now.

All of sudden? It is only about PC? You keep on answering only with ridicule taunting to my argumentation and really expect me to go into on any of your arguments. Beside that, I actually did not see anything I have not addressed in your argumentation, yet you would not accept my arguments anyway. We will never agree here and I will not be dragged down to your level personal assaulting argumentation you seem to come down to. You blame me for the leaving the field, yet why would you be the one to describe its boundaries. It is about gaming, PC, console, handheld, browser does not matter to me. Just because PC gaming is the preferred platform, I can look over the fence. Never would I say that console gaming is better or something, but it is an alternative solution if you do not like playing games on the PC or more specifically with Steam.

Slashman wrote:
quase wrote:

In case of Hard Reset, since when does it matter when a game is released. Half a year is nothing, look at Alan Wake. Many of these games you mentioned were console exclusive for a year or longer.

And yet somehow you lamented so many titles with console releases that were Steamworks/Steam only.

I do not understand what you want to hear on this. Steam-exclusivity that ends after some point of time is not something we could expect for Rebirth in my opinion. If a game is released as Steam-exclusive, it will most certainly stay on Steam. There is rarely a chance in time, nor a reason why it would be available at some point in the future without Steam. Hard Reset was an exception because the retail version did not have Steam when it was released later than the original. Torchlight 2 is another example of this, original release on Steam, retail version comes later without Steam.
Rebirth will have a retail with Steam from the start though, so I somehow doubt there will be a Steam-free rerelease 1 or 2 years after the initial release. I am not aware that this happened before with any other game at least.

What is there not to understand that if Egosoft would say/confirm today, they will release a Steam-free version of Rebirth 1 or 2 years after the initial release with Steam? I would simply wait until this to happen and I would be happy with it.

I will not comment on the rest of your other post because of the reason I posted in my first paragraph of this post.

Have a nice day/evening.


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PostPosted: Sun, 4. Nov 12, 22:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Steam being a third party, account bound, DRM, has limitations to the claim as a distribution platform. You cant distribute what you (the paying customer) don't own, but payed for. More like a renting platform that lets you "use" the software. There is a debate about first sale going on due to insane copyright laws here in the US. This was over a foreign student selling used textbooks in his native language to other students without the publishers consent even thought he had bought them originally. As it stands Steam could find it self in a legal pickle should someone with a fair sense and money decide to take them on. In fact the whole capitalistic economic model could find itself in a Gordian knot with a Sword of Damocles scenario thrown in. If egosoft want's to use steam as a "renting" service for it's software to generate profitsss then please do, but i would like them to not limit themselves to steam; I would love to be able to buy a steam free rebirth or have a way to remove it from the steam renting service.

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PostPosted: Sun, 4. Nov 12, 23:50    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yes, I to would rather have a Steam free version of Rebirth.
However with the game more than likely being Steamworks bound, that sadly may not be possible. However, there is always hope.


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Wraith_Magus





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 00:13    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

You know, Steam having a resale function sometime in the future isn't entirely out of the question and the main reason they don't do so now is likely more to do with the legal agreements they have with the developers than some sort of tight-fisted schemes against players.

Also, I'd like to point out that the notion that Steam will someday pull the plug on all games and stop you from playing your games is another vastly overblown complaint.

First off, Steam is leading the pack in Digital Distribution, and brick-and-mortar retailers are not doing well at all, and Steam is also moving into ways to distribute over televisions or even consoles, so Steam is going to be around for the foreseeable future of at least a decade or so.

Secondly, stop kidding yourself, games you own physical copies for do not last forever. I have Commodore 64 floppies still in a box somewhere. My (father's) Commodore 64, however, is trash. If you want to keep playing your NES cartridges, you can only pray that they keep working, because when they stop working, there's basically no replacing them. I heavily doubt you still play any PC games from before 2000, and the odds that Steam will be going away any time before a decade is out are phenomenally slim.

Thirdly, when Steam does go offline, I'm sure that they will simply enable a permanent Offline Mode that lets you keep playing the games you purchased on your current system for as long as you don't delete the games, or try to work out some other method, but let's face it, all games have a lifespan, and you're not going to be able to play any game forever.

Fourthly, games get re-released when you have systems like Steam that make it cheaper to do so. Steam sells the original UFO Defense (X-Com) with an emulator because the original game won't run on modern computers, but for less than a dollar on Steam sale, you can go back to playing the original game again. Morrowind came out for Steam, making playing THAT classic game easier, not harder. For that matter, Steam's much more reasonable than Nintendo in what price they charge for selling your childhood back to you.

All told, Steam is actually far better for older games than other forms of retail, which is one of the reasons gamers love the service so much.

This argument, like all the others, is not only largely baseless, but actually the inverse of the reality.

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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 00:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I would laugh if some hacker took down the steam servers with a ddos attack and watch all the tears being shed over it. Have the faults of the system laid bare to everyone!

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Sibilantae





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 00:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Wraith_Magus wrote:


Thirdly, when Steam does go offline, I'm sure that they will simply enable a permanent Offline Mode that lets you keep playing the games you purchased on your current system for as long as you don't delete the games, or try to work out some other method, but let's face it, all games have a lifespan, and you're not going to be able to play any game forever.



I agree with most points; but this point in particular has been discussed before. What incentive does Steam actually have to enable the offline mode if they go out of business? I don't want to take the cynical view that they will only do things to help themselves, but someone (Eladan, I think) did bring this up and it's not that easy to answer~


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Sibilantae





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 00:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

superdogballs wrote:
I would laugh if some hacker took down the steam servers with a ddos attack and watch all the tears being shed over it. Have the faults of the system laid bare to everyone!


Schadenfreude eh? Classy.


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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 00:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sibilantae wrote:
superdogballs wrote:
I would laugh if some hacker took down the steam servers with a ddos attack and watch all the tears being shed over it. Have the faults of the system laid bare to everyone!


Schadenfreude eh? Classy.


Twisted Evil People have no real concept of life and if they feel misery over not being able to play their game, due to how steam is rigged, then i think they need to re-evaluate their outlook on life. Just my two cents worth.

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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 01:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

There are only a handful of games that I can say that I would play decades after they are released. And for those games, I honestly would rather buy a digital distro version than go through the hassle of DOS emulators and all the other crap just to run a game from a floppy or old CD.

A lot of older games get re-released. I have the Freespace 2 box sitting right in front of me now as well as the original Dawn of War and Freedom Force boxes. If I really want to play those games again I'll head to Steam, GOG or GMG and buy a digital copy for a couple bucks. I also own the original Syndicate on floppy...GOG recently released it for sale.

Steam goes offline or not...it will not stop me from gaming.


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Wraith_Magus





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 03:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sibilantae wrote:
superdogballs wrote:
I would laugh if some hacker took down the steam servers with a ddos attack and watch all the tears being shed over it. Have the faults of the system laid bare to everyone!


Schadenfreude eh? Classy.


Not so much schadenfreude as merely wishing ill upon others for liking something he doesn't like. Sort of Grinch-stealing-Christmas-like. From the same guy that did the "fascism" reference earlier, at that.

But yeah, classy.

Oh, and for the record, Offline Mode still works when that happens.

Sibliantae wrote:
I agree with most points; but this point in particular has been discussed before. What incentive does Steam actually have to enable the offline mode if they go out of business? I don't want to take the cynical view that they will only do things to help themselves, but someone (Eladan, I think) did bring this up and it's not that easy to answer~


Steam is Valve, and Valve has a reputation as a company.

Even if Valve itself is going out of business, the people who are part of that company are going to have reputations.

Valve, in general, has a nigh-golden reputation among many gamers (to the point where I see a lot of people in arguments about EA complaining about why Valve is treated like it can do no wrong while EA is constantly making PR fumbles) for everything but their release schedule regarding Half-Life episodes, so there's definitely something to lose, there.

Reputation carries a lot of weight in the sale of games, and destroying that reputation can be financially ruinous - just ask John Romero. Hence, there's a serious financial incentive to not hose the customers on your way out, unless you seriously never want to work in the industry ever again and want to forever tarnish your memory.

Slashman wrote:
There are only a handful of games that I can say that I would play decades after they are released. And for those games, I honestly would rather buy a digital distro version than go through the hassle of DOS emulators and all the other crap just to run a game from a floppy or old CD.

A lot of older games get re-released. I have the Freespace 2 box sitting right in front of me now as well as the original Dawn of War and Freedom Force boxes. If I really want to play those games again I'll head to Steam, GOG or GMG and buy a digital copy for a couple bucks. I also own the original Syndicate on floppy...GOG recently released it for sale.

Steam goes offline or not...it will not stop me from gaming.


While we're on the topic of old distributors shutting down and new ones coming along to replace them, games like Morrowind are $20, and drop down to less than $5 under some of the sales. Indie games that were lower-priced to start with can drop to only $2 in some of the sales.

Is anyone honestly going to freak out over having to re-purchase a game for a price less than that of what you probably pay for lunch at a later date?

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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 03:36    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Secondly, stop kidding yourself, games you own physical copies for do not last forever.

True, but when you own a physical copy, being able to use it or not depends on your actions and/or physical limitations of the media. There is no third party who can decide that the game has outlived it's usefulness.

Quote:
I heavily doubt you still play any PC games from before 2000, and the odds that Steam will be going away any time before a decade is out are phenomenally slim.

Heavily doubt all you like, but you are heavily wrong. I, and many others, regularly revisit older games, going back to ~1992 in my case. Hell, GOG (stands for Good Old Games) based their entire business on it, even though they are expanding their catalogue with newer games now.

Quote:
Thirdly, when Steam does go offline, I'm sure that they will simply enable a permanent Offline Mode that lets you keep playing the games you purchased on your current system for as long as you don't delete the games.

As Sibilantae mentioned, I've already rebutted this. Yes, Valve have made that promise, and it's clearly a terrific marketing move, given how many people refer to it as a plus for steam, but think about it for half a second.

1. Valve would have to get the ok from every game maker beforehand to be able to do this. Very likely that at least some would say no.

2. By the time Valve came to the conclusion that they were going out of business, this would be the last thing on their minds. They would have creditors to pay, and all their efforts would be towards activities which would actually generate funds to pay them. Having devs spend a large chunk of their time ensuring all the games in their distribution are de-steamed, where there is no return on investment, and no incentive anyway (who are the users going to complain to when Valve goes bankrupt?) would be well down the list.

:EDIT:

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Is anyone honestly going to freak out over having to re-purchase a game for a price less than that of what you probably pay for lunch at a later date?

No. However, for some people there is a principle involved, and whether the games cost $2 or $200 is not the point.

:EDIT2:

Missed this bit.
Wraith_Magus wrote:
Reputation carries a lot of weight in the sale of games, and destroying that reputation can be financially ruinous - just ask John Romero. Hence, there's a serious financial incentive to not hose the customers on your way out, unless you seriously never want to work in the industry ever again and want to forever tarnish your memory.

Their reputation is not only with gamers. They would have to explain to creditors just why it was so important to ignore doing work which would pay them, to do nonpaid work of questionable (to them) benefit.

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Wraith_Magus





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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 04:13    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Ah, eladan is still in this... guess I might as well reply to the previous one, then...

eladan wrote:
Fine. Here is A reason. It's not the only one, but it'll do for a start. My gaming PC doesn't have a network connection. At all. It's rather difficult, I'm sure you'd agree, to use a service like steam without a net connection. How's that for a conspiracy theory. It's not even a really difficult one to think of, should you have bothered to wonder whether there might be a reason that someone didn't want to use steam. And that is the thing which really seriously irks me about posts like yours - you simply refuse to consider that there might actually be a legitimate reason that steam isn't the best distribution platform for some people. It's incredibly insulting to read posts like yours which simply dismiss someone elses concerns when you don't even f'ing know what those concerns are.


Which would be nice if you paid attention to who I was arguing to, and what I was saying before you started arguing against a strawman.

My argument that you were trying to jump into said quite clearly not that "there is no reason you should ever choose not to use Steam", but rather, "If you use Origin, and like that service, the number of valid complaints you can use against Steam become significantly limited to the few differences between Origin and Steam."

Does that not apply to you? Maybe it's because you're butting into a response aimed at the things someone else said, and treating it as if I was talking about you, and claiming that I'm somehow "assuming" something about you.

Hence, if you're already talking about how you enjoy another Digital Distribution service? Yeah, the "I don't have a connection" argument goes out the window. So does the account binding argument, because most digital distributors do that, as well. So do most of the other arguments because most digital distributors are very alike.

Oh, and while we're on that topic, let's have a looksee at this:

Quote:
I, and many others, regularly revisit older games, going back to ~1992 in my case. Hell, GOG (stands for Good Old Games) based their entire business on it, even though they are expanding their catalogue with newer games now.


See that? You're comparing Steam to Good Old Games... another Digital Distributor.

Apparently, for someone who claims I'm not reading enough of your posts, you not only aren't reading mine, but you aren't even reading or understanding your own.

You see, I was talking about how Digital Distribution was a much better system for playing older games than trying to hold onto physical copies forever, and you tried countering my argument for Digital Distribution by saying how much you loved a Digital Distribution system.

Thank you for validating my point.

Further, all that stuff you were talking about with saying that you were adamantly opposed to buying anything over Digital Distribution because you couldn't use it with your computer? Yeah, you just invalidated your own argument while you went out of your way to validate mine.

*Slow clap*

Please, make this argument easier for me. Very Happy

Quote:
Here's the thing. I'm not comparing steam to anything, and I perfectly respect your right to use it if you wish. Compare and contrast my attitude to yours.


You're right, you're comparing my arguments based upon rationales I have explicitly laid out to arguments that merely involve saying people hate Steam for no reason, and then trying to treat it as if it were the greatest offense in the world when I rebut any of your arguments in a debate.

Rational arguments are such underhanded tactics in debates, I know...

Quote:
I am not interested in discussing with you whether my reason is good enough for you. I am not interested in discussing with anyone else whether my reason is good enough for them. My reason is good enough for me, and I consider it to be a sound reason to not want steam as the only distribution platform for Rebirth. I'm seriously pissed off with people who can only ever see positives in the product they like, and won't even exercise the couple of brain cells required to think about why someone might have a different opinion.


Actually, I'm only sitting here swatting down all the claims being made against Steam when they are factually inaccurate.

Again, I'm not saying you have to love Steam, I'm simply saying your hatred of it is purely irrational, and that none of the reasons you keep trying to offer for why it isn't an irrational bias against Steam are valid reasons.

Quote:
True, but when you own a physical copy, being able to use it or not depends on your actions and/or physical limitations of the media. There is no third party who can decide that the game has outlived it's usefulness.
Quote:
As Sibilantae mentioned, I've already rebutted this. Yes, Valve have made that promise, and it's clearly a terrific marketing move, given how many people refer to it as a plus for steam, but think about it for half a second.

1. Valve would have to get the ok from every game maker beforehand to be able to do this. Very likely that at least some would say no.

2. By the time Valve came to the conclusion that they were going out of business, this would be the last thing on their minds. They would have creditors to pay, and all their efforts would be towards activities which would actually generate funds to pay them. Having devs spend a large chunk of their time ensuring all the games in their distribution are de-steamed, where there is no return on investment, and no incentive anyway (who are the users going to complain to when Valve goes bankrupt?) would be well down the list.
Quote:
Their reputation is not only with gamers. They would have to explain to creditors just why it was so important to ignore doing work which would pay them, to do nonpaid work of questionable (to them) benefit.


Essentially, your argument boils down to "I know that there is a direct answer to this concern, but I'm going to assume they are all viciously lying to the players because they are evil in spite of my having no proof whatsoever for my assumptions."

I.E. A conspiracy theory.

Then you get offended again at how I point out that you've got nothing but conspiracy theories.

Round and round we go.

Quote:
No. However, for some people there is a principle involved, and whether the games cost $2 or $200 is not the point.


And this continues to prove my earlier point that all your arguments are based upon nothing but irrational bias.

You cannot concede that $2 is something that no rational person would get worked up over for the all the convenience and benefits already mentioned. Instead, you have to make it up into some grand crusade on "principles" to make it sound less like mere stubborn refusal to try something you haven't tried before.

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PostPosted: Mon, 5. Nov 12, 09:31    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Which would be nice if you paid attention to who I was arguing to, and what I was saying before you started arguing against a strawman.

My argument that you were trying to jump into said quite clearly not that "there is no reason you should ever choose not to use Steam", but rather, "If you use Origin, and like that service, the number of valid complaints you can use against Steam become significantly limited to the few differences between Origin and Steam."

I was paying attention. Clearly, you weren't. Specifically, here is what I replied to from your original post:

Wraith_Magus wrote:
I find it telling that I'm supposed to search 20 pages of posts to find any reasoning behind why someone shouldn't use Steam, as all the rest is just a bunch of posts saying "I hate Steam THIS much!" "Oh yeah, I hate Steam EVEN MORE!"

Notice the bolded part? That was what I was responding to. Seems pretty damn general to me, and nothing to do with steam vs origin.

Quote:
Hence, if you're already talking about how you enjoy another Digital Distribution service? Yeah, the "I don't have a connection" argument goes out the window. So does the account binding argument, because most digital distributors do that, as well. So do most of the other arguments because most digital distributors are very alike.

Except that I use GOG, which allows me to copy the install files to a USB to take over to my gaming PC, where I can install and play perfectly happily with no network connection. But no, I forgot, you'd rather insult me than think that someone could find a use where another digital distributor might be a better choice than steam.

Quote:
See that? You're comparing Steam to Good Old Games... another Digital Distributor.

Apparently, for someone who claims I'm not reading enough of your posts, you not only aren't reading mine, but you aren't even reading or understanding your own.

See above. You aren't understanding mine, I think.

Quote:
You see, I was talking about how Digital Distribution was a much better system for playing older games than trying to hold onto physical copies forever, and you tried countering my argument for Digital Distribution by saying how much you loved a Digital Distribution system.

No, you were talking about the idea that there is no reason for anyone not to use steam. And you still haven't conceded the point.

Quote:
Further, all that stuff you were talking about with saying that you were adamantly opposed to buying anything over Digital Distribution because you couldn't use it with your computer? Yeah, you just invalidated your own argument while you went out of your way to validate mine.

Sorry, but no. Go back and read my post. I can't use steam because my gaming PC has no net connection. I've now clearly indicated how I can use GOG. it doesn't at all invalidate my argument.

Quote:
*Slow clap*

Please, make this argument easier for me. Very Happy

Nice. Real cute.

Quote:
Actually, I'm only sitting here swatting down all the claims being made against Steam when they are factually inaccurate.

You have yet to invalidate one of my arguments. Why is that? Because I actually know why I can't use steam, and you're merely assuming that you know my situation.

Quote:
Essentially, your argument boils down to "I know that there is a direct answer to this concern, but I'm going to assume they are all viciously lying to the players because they are evil in spite of my having no proof whatsoever for my assumptions."

I.E. A conspiracy theory.

No, it's actually a logical thought experiment about what any company is like when they are in the throes of bankruptcy. You can choose to believe a very pretty sounding promise if you like, I was just giving you solid reasoning why I believe it was empty. But hey. Neither of us will actually know until it happens, will we, so let's agree to disagree.

Quote:
Quote:
No. However, for some people there is a principle involved, and whether the games cost $2 or $200 is not the point.


And this continues to prove my earlier point that all your arguments are based upon nothing but irrational bias.

No, it was a hint that there are further arguments beyond the one that I specifically mentioned. An argument that I am sure that you would simply laugh off as 'steam hate' hence the reason I didn't previously bother with it. But it's another argument that's there in those 20 pages, if you cared to look...

But here it is. Some people dislike the DRM and account tying nature of steam, believing that they shouldn't need to have to run steam to play games they've purchased. And they believe they have the right of resale. I'm not going to argue this one with you, as it is merely a matter of opinion, and I'm sure you have a different opinion. Nevertheless, for those people, it is a valid reason to boycott steam as a principled protest against those features of steam. Again, whether games are $2 or $200 doesn't matter in such a situation, as it's the principle that counts.

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