EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth

[Mightysword]

Well, boohoo! The mean old NPC's didn't get around to supplying one of your ore mines. It happens.

So when a NPC station buying Ecell at 22 and there are at least 5 SPP in a 3 sector radius selling at 12-13, and that station just sit there with no supply for 1+ game day, what do you have to say about that?

This is a myth. It doesn't happen. At least, not in the latest patches. What version did you last extensively play? 1.2?

It's not a myth, and it does happen. Granted I didn't play since 3.1. But I had a couple of games in 3.0, I don't remember how extensive I played, I just knew I had complete the HUD mission and have an empire of 60+ non-factory ships. And yes I have to run the AI economy for them.

Yeah, the X3 economy is more complex than its predecessors. Most of us find that to be a good thing. You don't like it, stick to the simplistic one in X2 or go play Freelancer where there's no variability at all. But stop knocking the X3 economy simply because it's not 'easy' anymore. It's not broken. It's just a lot more complex.

Now that's a post with a rare attitude

X3 economy might be complex, doesn't mean it works. That's like saying a 20 pages essay is guarantee to be better than a 2 pages essay. And frankly, I believe you don't see the problem because it's not a big part of your game. You have fun with your capping so may be you see the side that's working. For people like me, who marticulusly pay attetion to the trade and build aspect of the game (by no mean, no less important than the fight aspect), and by having a lot more friction with the system we see flaw that you don't, and we have a lot of immersion killers. You say it's dynamic, and I see none. To me dynamic is a flow of thing follow a certain logic, the remove and add station in X3 didn't follow a logical low of real demand or oversupply, it's a random system base on luck and incompetency.

Like I said, I'm all for a complex and challenge system as long as they make it work. However if they can't, I'll choose a simple but stable Sedna over a complex but broken Boeing anyday.

And you seem to have a (bad) habit of "assuming" the reason we complain about the X3 system because it's "hard" comparing to X2. Most of us complain, me particular, is because it's broken. You have your opinion and I have mine, and unless you can sufficiently refute and prove me wrong, I will maintain my ground.

[Nanook]

....is because it's broken...

No, it's not. Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't mean it's 'broken'. By the way, energy cells never sold for 22 credits in X3. Max price is 20.

[frankzappa]

Is Q4 2011 still a realistic window for release?

I have the same question. I wish they would release any additional news since it's been months of silence.

Me too. I hate it when companies string people along and not just just be upfront about timescales.

I wanna know is 2011 still likely? What is this going to have that will make it much better than TC? What from TC was not good and will be improved etc. And show me some vids.

[Mightysword]

....is because it's broken...

No, it's not. Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't mean it's 'broken'.

Yes it is. When factories selling at min and buying at max exists in the same vincinity having an extended staring contest, I call it broken. You call it dynamic, I call it random. You call it competition, I call it incompetence. You call it a feature, I call it broken, how about we leave it at that?

Unless you can prove to me that the staring contest doesn't exist, than broken it is. In this ground I think I have it over you. I don't think you can claim such staring contest doesn't exist in your game. I however, can speak with 101% confident the competion you claim doesn't exist in mine

[Nanook]

....is because it's broken...

No, it's not. Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't mean it's 'broken'.

Yes it is. When factories selling at min and buying at max exists in the same vincinity having an extended staring contest, I call it broken. You call it dynamic, I call it random. You call it competition, I call it incompetence. You call it a feature, I call it broken, how about we leave it at that?

Unless you can prove to me that the staring contest doesn't exist, than broken it is. In this ground I think I have it over you. I don't think you can claim such staring contest doesn't exist in your game. I however, can speak with 101% confident the competion you claim doesn't exist in mine

I don't have to prove anything to you. All I have to do is offer an opposing opinion to what you're saying so that others who haven't played the game don't go away believing everyone thinks the game is broken and so they don't bother playing it. To me, that would be a real crime. So go ahead and believe what you say, but stop proselytizing about how 'broken' the economy is when in fact you just don't like the way it works compared to X2. And let the rest of us enjoy the new, improved X3TC economy in peace.

[Wolfie276]

I rather like having established trade lanes instead of them changing all the time. Helps know where to buy where to sell stuff. All that goes out the window when it is too dynamic. As that is what i liked about x2, elite frontier (animal skins trick).

The reason X3 has no established tradelanes is because it isn't realistic.

In a realistic universe, a temporary traderoute of an x amount of time would be formed through contracting.

[forloren]

I must have been lucky, I've played one continuous game since X3:TC was released and have had almost no problems with the economy.

It's not broken if you take it for what it is and not what you want it to be.

I think the X3 economy is designed so that the player has to participate in it for it to work properly. If the economy was optimized to work on it's own, any player interaction would actually be detrimental. By being a less than optimal system to begin with, player participation in the economy would serve to optimize it, thus providing the opportunities for great profits.

I have no idea what the XR economy is going to be like, but I'm fairly sure it won't be resource 1 -> resource 2 + resource 3 -> consumable. Perhaps resource quality will come into play and effect the quality of the end product. Perhaps you could place orders with factories for specific models or versions of a product.

After all, there has to be a reason for all the ships flying around the stations, and I don't think it's a meatsteak cahoona conga line.

[Mightysword]

To me, that would be a real crime. So go ahead and believe what you say, but stop proselytizing

I'm not "proselytizing". I just provide "evidence" on why I call it broken. Or do you prefer I just simply state "it's broken" without saying why I think so? Wouldn't that be called a troll?

And I never called mine interpretation anything more than an opinion. But it is "my" opinion, and because I don't believe "personal opinion" is an excuse for saying crap, I will standby and defend my opinion. I don't ask people to agree, but to repsect it unless they can sufficiently refute it. I'm sorry but if you want to "argue" that it's improved and not "broken" (like you doing), you have the obligation to either "prove" it or agree to disagree. Saying you don't have to prove it is not an option.

And let the rest of us enjoy the new, improved X3TC economy in peace.

I have to ask, is that an official moderator action? If it is than even though I disagree, I will respect that. Broken or Feature are mere labels, you can or can't agree with my labeling, but you can't say I'm lying. Maybe someone will read what I describe as broken and think it's a feature and not broken, and they're free to believe that. Once again (emphasized), you may contest what I decide to call it, but until you can contest what I actually descriped, I stand by what I said.

Unless you want to put the moderator hat on, we're equal. I'm a legitimate player of the X series and a potential future buyer. I believe I can post my opinion about the game just like you. I respect Egosoft, but I'm not in their PR department. Just like other gamers I want to say what I disklike with the hope of it will be improved. Even if it wasn't broken and like you said, is a matter of style, I still want to voice my "preferred style" for future reference. You seem to imply your style is more valid than mine, and I don't see how. Especially it's obvious I am not the only one with such opinion. And I am not ranting.


So, either you proved me wrong in which case I will concur. Or prove that I'm trolling (irreponsibly bassing the game), in which I will ask for explanation. Or issue an official moderator action in which case I will stop (no question). I know this come across as critical, but your last post strike me as "I can't not say you're wrong, but you either have to love my style or leave it". I will deter to a moderator for their right to keep order, but not from a fellow poster.

[Nanook]

...

And let the rest of us enjoy the new, improved X3TC economy in peace.

I have to ask, is that an official moderator action?...

Hardly. Diverting the debate away from the topic and bringing my moderator status into it is a cheap tactic. I think our little conversation is over. So you can have the last word if you wish.

[Mightysword]

Hardly. Diverting the debate away from the topic and bringing my moderator status into it is a cheap tactic. I think our little conversation is over. So you can have the last word if you wish.

Oh I wasn't bringing your status in to derail it. I just want to make sure if I can still talk about it (since you post seem to imply that I should stop). Sometime too long a discussion can be disruptive and I have seen moderators step in to stop it, which I understand. I have no desire to have the last word, but it's good to know I'm free to continue.

[EarlHarewood]

Im so not reading 185 pages of "omgomgomgomgomgomg"
So if this has been said before, my apologies.
Also before I continue, i'd like to say my heart goes out to all the moderators who have to put up with BS over there not being a rebirth forum, when quite simply it's obviously harder than it looks to create a new forum on this site.

That said, the only thing I want in rebirth, is the ability to look at a sum of money in the game and not have to guess how much it actually is.
Maybe someone's modded this, you might want to point me in their direction if that is the case

What I'm getting at is that in TC once your money number gets to a certain amount of digits it becomes almost impossible to quickly see how much you have, there is no punctuation and the use of "k" is really confusing for me.

Better to keep it simple, show the full number, use commas, and colour code it, different colour for each tier of numbers.
100 ; 1000 ; 10,000 ; 100,000 ; 1,000,000 etc

About the rest, if it's anything like TC it will be awesome. And if it sucks, it will still be the best because nobody else out there is even bothering to make space games anymore because they're all n00000000bs!!!!!!!
Egosoft FTW!

[Skeeter]

Don't think they mind much banter about anything in general in this topic. It has gone in so many directions it is a general x thread not specific any more.

If the mods wanted to just have this as an announcement they could if they wanted split it from post 2 and move all the other posts into a new general x topic and then lock the OP.

Edit - EarlHarewood: Check out SPAZ it is a cool indie game, very deep and complex space game made by 2 people over a few years on their own time and money. Pretty cool if u ask me.

Then thier is the very nice looking Black Prophecy which can only really get better which i was in the beta and thought it was cool but buggy but in a year i reckon be worth investing time in, depends how dedicated they are to adding new content and stuff. Then their is star trek online, pretty nice space game and probs a few more out there coming soon. So egosoft does have competition in the sci fi space type games out there.

[snwboardn21]

So to derail a bit... How cool would it be to incorporate trackIr and have a 3dVision ready profile?

[Naroku]

To be honest I just want a few pics of what ever from rebirth. Even a spacefly for collection sincei never seen one in TC.... would be cool a fleet of tamed space flies take out a SPP
As for the previous statment the economy is broken , I must respectfully disagree. It could be more detailed but I enjoy macromanagment over micromanagment.

[bp_968]

I don't really care how or if the advertise as long as they make enough $ to keep making these cool games, and don't sell out and start doing console ports (I've gotten to the point that I just about despise consoles. DA:2 got ruined by being fit for the console players, and even worse, still got a great review score all over the place for what was really a very subpar sequel).

To be exact: DA2 got ruined by a very rushed release. Consoles had nothing to do with it, only a greedy publisher.
Should I remind you that DA:Origins was also released for consoles?

DA Origins was on consoles, but it was a much different game then it was on PC. The interface was hugely different between the two releases. It played much more like a proper party based RPG on the PC, and that didn't transfer very well to the console control scheme. So they designed DA2 for the console, and ported it to the PC, destroying it in the process.

Look at almost all the cross platform releases, the PC gets the shaft. Crysis 2 looks *worse* then crysis 1, because it was a console to PC port (it even said "press start to begin" on the title screen on the PC). When you have a console designed game ported to the PC you get one thats basically designed for a mid grade 5-6 year old PC, rendering your fancy new DX11 video card and 8 core CPU pretty pointless.


Anyway, back to the subject, hopefully Egosoft avoids consoles like the plague and sticks with the niche they have already.

[PTR]

wrt the economy of X3: the only time I really saw NPC ships buy my products was when I had a Space Weed factory. NPC ships supplying NPC factories is indeed slow, but that means only more opportunities for the player: at the beginning of the game a lot of manual trade options, later on I have sector traders in the sectors surrounding my factories, helping the economy while earning some money! So no real problems there.

For the lack of news: not up to EGOSOFT I think. But if they can answer one question about the game, I hope it's about sector layout and complex/factory locations. But probably every person here was another question....

[beckoner]

@metasword:

any sensible trader tries to maximise his income. We all know it's more profitable to ship half a dozen high value items than to ship a hold full of E-Cells if you aren't considering anything else.. So why would you expect the NPC's to do anything different?

It would be nice for there both to be NPC factory traders and NPC Universals, but I suspect that then the player would have a very hard time competing.

[costi]

All it takes to notice this is 15-20 hours, when suddenly equipping an M6 or M7 requires you to fly around the whole galaxy, because the just aren't enough guns and shields on the market.
That's just ridiculous.

15-20 hours is nothing. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is the X3 economy. What you're probably seeing is the result of the improved economy, and the NPC traders buying up the weapons and shields before you get to them. It's called competition. Don't believe me? Go scan a number of weapons and high tech traders. You'll see where all those weapons have gone. The game doesn't let the factories fill up as they did in X2 because of the NPC free traders.

It's not that the factories have disappeared. It's that their products get bought up and then sold to the equipment docks and military outposts. You want weapons? Go camp those stations and you'll get plenty, eventually. Lot's of TC players use the HUB as a gathering point for whatever they need. Add the ware to the HUB's list, set a trader to go collect the weapons at average price, and watch the slot for that weapon fill up in the HUB. I think you'll find there are plenty of weapons and shields and whatever available. Or you can just do what I do, steal 'em.

Sorry, but camping around a fab for days is not my idea of fun...
As for the hub - have you missed the "15-20 hours into the game"? Besides, getting the Hub and a fleet of automated traders just to equip one-two ships is pure overkill, wouldn't you agree?

Besides, I used a script that searched the whole galaxy for a chosen ware, and for some items there literally were none available. At some point I had trouble buying 10 HEPTs for my docked fighters - how stupid is that?
I would understand if the products from factories were moved to EQ docks and sold there (even at a higher price), but they aren't - the AI simply makes stuff vanish.

I think the X3 economy is designed so that the player has to participate in it for it to work properly. If the economy was optimized to work on it's own, any player interaction would actually be detrimental. By being a less than optimal system to begin with, player participation in the economy would serve to optimize it, thus providing the opportunities for great profits.

It doesn't have to be optimal - it's enough that it doesn't fall apart on it's own.
Besides, a system operating on supply and demand will never be optimal, because prices change and new trade opportunities arise while others are gone. And that's where the player comes in

What I would also like to see in X:R economy is in-game events having an effect on the prices. For example, a 25MJ shield gets put out of order for a time (for whatever reason) and therefore, due to decreased supply, 25MJ shields become more expensive in the region. Stuff like that would really increase immersion IMHO.

[BurnIt!]

This topic has grown beyond what our moderation tools can handle effectively so we'll lock this one and ask that further X Rebirth be continued here: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=304976