PBE defensive tactics

[gradea]

The PBE isn X3 Reunion was one of the better weapons around. It riped through shields, and was great for capturing ships.

In TC how ever, it takes the place nukes used to in Reunion. It's the weapon that makes you loose the game.

Allow me to explain. In an Argon Elite I can kill, with enough mass driver ammo, a combat group of M6s, with PACs I can destroy most patrols of around half a dozen ships, including a couple M3s.

How ever, if even a single ship with PBEs attacks me, I will loose 100% of my 50MJ worth of shielding in between half and one and a half seconds.

Impossible to dodge with straffing to their great speed, is there ANY defensive tactic against these things other then "Get a corvette" "Cheat" and "Change the stats on them yourself"?

[Sandalpocalypse]

Charge the PBE ship and destroy it.

When you get close the AI will break off and try to evade.

If there are multiple PBE ships:

if your ship is fast enough, you can charge and destroy one PBE ship then just keep going in a straight line. the goal is to get beyond PBE range before the other ships come back around on attack headings.

if your ship is slow, just keep attacking as best you can.

plus... an elite is only an m4... even if it's a m4p. You'll have better luck with a heavier m3, which will also have much more hull in case your shields get stripped.

the most common PBE carriers are Xenon Ms and Ls, which don't have turrets; missiles are a good investment.

Dropping a flight of fighter drones to distract the enemy also works very well.

[Psirus]

you think it's not as good a weapon just because NPC ships use it now? Makes those Xenon fighters quite a bit more dangerous unless you're in a frigate or have 30 fighters supporting. What about the MD weilding pirates, those are alot of fun Although I do rather miss dogfighting with 3 dozen xenon in my PNR, twisting, turning, and barrel rolling all the while with these pretty green bolts of plasma flying this way and that creating this beautiful light show where I had been a second before

[Poobah]

The PBE isn X3 Reunion was one of the better weapons around. It riped through shields, and was great for capturing ships.

In TC how ever, it takes the place nukes used to in Reunion. It's the weapon that makes you loose the game.

Allow me to explain. In an Argon Elite I can kill, with enough mass driver ammo, a combat group of M6s, with PACs I can destroy most patrols of around half a dozen ships, including a couple M3s.

How ever, if even a single ship with PBEs attacks me, I will loose 100% of my 50MJ worth of shielding in between half and one and a half seconds.

Impossible to dodge with straffing to their great speed, is there ANY defensive tactic against these things other then "Get a corvette" "Cheat" and "Change the stats on them yourself"?

Pretty much PBE in the hands of the enemy = instaloss if you ship has less than a hell of a lot of shielding. PBEs are just so overpowered it isn't funny. I've lost fights in my Skate (M3+) because of one or two tricksy xenon M's for crying out loud. 75Mj of shields wiped out in seconds by a M4, really? REALLY?

I really sympathise with you and really don't want to turn this into a whiny post because I do very much like Egosoft and their games, but I can't help but feel that giving AI ships overpowered weapons (PBE, Plasma Flame Throwers etc.) is just a cop out to 'balance' fighter combat in favour of AI ships and against players who can take out wings of them in X3:R with tricksy dogfighting skills which, if you come across a ship with one of those just isn't possible.

I exclude the Kha'ak from this because while their highly deadly insta-hit Kyons are exactly the kind of nasty "make fighter combat difficult" things that we're talking about that was kinda the point back in X2. The Kha'ak were seriously scary stuff because of their swarm mentality and Kyons and that was good, very very good because it made them new and different and threatening and hell scary.

Giving pretty much every enemy ship in the game a doom weapon sort of goes against the whole point really though. If I can't fight Xenon in my fighter because I'll get the crap PBE'd out of me and I can't fight pirates because I'll get vaporised when they vent plasma in my face and the Kha'ak of course are big scary boogymen am I just supposed to go back to one of the early versions and earn a few hundred million doing missions before I'm allowed to partake in combat because I can afford to buy and outfit a few wings of backup fighters or a pocket destroyer?

I know some people like the way things are with TMs (later M1's) and quickly getting in to capping and being able to field your own fleets and macro up quickly to bigships and all that, but some people like to dogfight too

[Psirus]

Yeah, fleet combat is more fun in TC, but they kinda kicked dogfighting in the gonads. I rarely use fighters at all, and just let my big shipsdestroy everything.

[PhoenixFlame]

The PBEs themselves aren't so bad, as a fighter equipped with HEPTs or equivalent weapons is capable of, in a single generator capacitor charge, destroying about 2-3 or maybe 4 ships of equal size before running out of juice. PBEs might be lucky to kill one, and even then you're guarenteed to strip the shields but taking out the hull in a single pass (or single charge honestly) is tricksy. The fighter will take hull damage though, slowing it down and allowing other ships armed with real weapons to kill it.

Or just more PBEs, so it doesn't honestly matter.

The devious part is that the player isn't three or four ships, even if he has wingmen, it is only his death that actually ends the game. Furthermore, the player's superior ability to percieve and react to attacks means his fighter's maneuverability is comparatively "more valuable" than an AI fighter's. This is pretty much the totality of his advantages over the AI. PBEs simply remove that.

It's devious. Tactically speaking there's no reason to arm a squadron entirely with PBEs (and especially not your ship, unless you intend to capture instead of kill), or if you did, more than a single ship. They simply don't do enough damage for their power consumption.

That pretty much means that charging them and defeating them with superior weapons is the only hard counter without radical changes in tactics that basically become "not dogfighting" or "Use missiles, not guns". You're pretty much guarenteed to lose your shields and take damage, however. The AI could care less on the other hand, because it doesn't actually pay for repairs.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Use the environment to your advantage. All those asteroids, debris fields and stations to duck around and behind.

[gradea]

Nuklearslug, not to sound insulting, but do you have any idea of the scale of what your talking about? Most of the asteroids are larger then the amount of space the entire dog fight takes up. you can't just duck behind them. It doesn't work like that.

And "Wait till you have 30 fighters" really isn't a viable tactic. Of course fighting with millions, or billions of credits worth of ships MORE then the enemy gives you an advantage. It does not mean the game is balanced.

Sand...you've got the cloest to good advice. Yeah, the only solution is to charge the ship with PBEs. But the problem is you never know which one has them before hand, and I hate reloading repedidly. Not to mention multiples of at/near your speed almost instantly spells doom.

But this post is moot. I've run into the plasma flame throwers for the first time. And now I am CONVINCED egosoft did not playtest this game. Period. I was just starting to like it too. The missions made getting credits early on much easier, the pirates finally used TS class ships, so I could finally CAPTURE TS class ships, and sector trading seemed to level up TSs faster.

And then I ran into the freaking plasma flamer. I can rush the PBE ships. I can shoot missiles and hope for the best at multiple khaak clusters. But what in the name of all you hold holy do you do when someone fires a weapon that can not be dodged AND kills you in one to two hits?

[Gavrushka]

I don't know who it was that posted this - BUT it works - There is a defence against PBE that is foolproof but needs abit of bravery - The first time I tested it was in an M3 against a dozen PBE wielding Xenon - All you do is Strafe whilst spinning - You'll take the occassional hit but your shields will recover - Once you're out of range make a short distance attack run before resuming spinning and strafing - You will win. I was amazed, and all credit to the OP of this idea.

[Prutz0r]

Honestly, I'm not that great a pilot, but I'm not the worst either. In TC it is a fact that you have to pick your fight. I haven't flown my Nova Raider for a while, since I've been flying a springblossom and now an Hyperion. Thing is, it's not the best of ideas to go charging around in a M3 attacking pirate patrols or groups of Xenon. On the terrran missions, especially in the beginning I was killed multiple times in my Sabre by those pesky M's, but not by PBE's, by missiles. PBE-equipped fighters can be taken on, but only with some tactics. Not if you're going headfirst into the breach and there are 12 around.

What N-S is saying is actually right. In TC you should learn to expand your battlefleet. Use Asteroids, debris and other stuff to your advantage. It's there, so why not use it? Besides, you get bragging rights for charging straight through a gap in a station with enemies on your tail. Especially when they don't survive.

[Killjaeden]

It's at least a way to survive but what kind of dogfight is that? Dear Xenon Patroul may I have the pleasure of the next dance? With that kind of fighting style you'll get dizzy and have to pause the game to recover
ES the plebs wants back the dogfighting part of X!

The usual weapons of enemie should be normal lasers like PAC, HEPT, IRE or PRG. Those special lasers (MD, ID, PBG and PBE) should be also used but as exception for a tough fearsome fighter in a convoi.

Scanned the last Argon MM6 convoi - 4 Nova Raider all of them with 4PBG 1 Nova Vanguard 4PRG 1 Nova Sentinel 4 PBG... 4 Bustards with 4PRG, 2 Gladiator, 1 HC with 2 IDs in Rearturret, 2PBG and 4 CIG in Front, 2*2CIG on sides. This is nothing but usual.

That's 100% instadeathweapons on their M3 and a 100%almostinstahitweapon on Buster (at least not that annoying and dodgeable).

€

Use Asteroids, debris and other stuff to your advantage

Some sectors lack debris, asteroids and even stations that you can reach in time

[Prutz0r]

Okay, so you have to stay out of the 1 km range. Wasn't Dogfighting a game of skill? Where you could show that you were the better pilot? Of course, if there was a game where you could take your High-tech F22 and your enemies would all be flying Sopwith Camels, yeah, you'd be the king of skies. It's not that you don't have acces to the same weapons. Use missiles. Hell, with such a patrol, when you're not intent on capping, why not throw a hammerhead at one of the m4's? That's instakill even for the HCP. I'm not saying it's easy, because it's not. It just requires you to adapt. I hate PBG too, them I mounted 4 of them on my Nova. PBG makes for good pirate shish kebab.

[Gavrushka]

@KillJaeden I'd certainly agree it ain't pretty and it makes you nauseous - I used it to save my life, just the once, and am not too proud to admit it - To use it as a method of defeating the enemy on a regular basis I agree I'd struggle with.

@PrutzOr - Maybe you genuinely have the skill to avoid and survive multiple insta-hit laser fire from a dozen Xenon - That would make you exceptional - I simply can't do it, or perceive of a way I could. You can't stay out of range of a ship that is faster than you, expecially when there are other ships all around you. Or can you? Multiple PBE wielding enemies surrounding you when you are in a comparable ship is death to almost any pilot

[Prutz0r]

I've ended up a roast chicken more than I care to mention too, Gavrushka, and I must admit that it took me a while to accept the futility of not using missiles in anything smaller than an M6 and even when in an m6 I must admit I have started to use missiles more often. I've just started to make certain rules whenever I am flying an m3. When engaging pirates, any group consisting of anything with more than 2 m3's is certain death in close quarters, since most m3's carry PBG. So, we start to thin them out from a distance whenever I'm not able to outrun them. it's a question of being able to get in close and finish them before they finish you, or not getting in close. It is a problem in a sense that you can't just attack a group of 4 Blastclaw prototypes when trying to obtain one, but that's just about my only problem with it. It's not that it isn't doable, it's just that it isn't doable in the coolest way possible.

[Killjaeden]

Okay, so you have to stay out of the 1 km range. Wasn't Dogfighting a game of skill? Where you could show that you were the better pilot? Of course, if there was a game where you could take your High-tech F22 and your enemies would all be flying Sopwith Camels, yeah, you'd be the king of skies. It's not that you don't have acces to the same weapons. Use missiles. Hell, with such a patrol, when you're not intent on capping, why not throw a hammerhead at one of the m4's?

Yeah it is a kind of skill but i expect the AI the have a skill too. Not just weapons that always hit you.
Of course i could throw a hammerhead at every patrol - but where's the point. I don't want to use missles to defeat them, i want to get personal. "Stay out of 1Km" - could it be called tactic if you are forced not to come close (dogfight IS actually close range-> 10m to 1,5Km imho) because if you do so you are dead?

I'm not saying it's easy, because it's not.

It is easy quiet to nuke a patrol...
And if i would throw a hammerhead on each patrol i have to encounter - where do i get the hammerheads? (i mean groups of xenon or pirates - not military patrol wich should still be hard to defeat them alone but why are they equipped 100% with hardtofind Pirateweapons? Did they forget that they also had PAC or HEPT?)

It just requires you to adapt. I hate PBG too, them I mounted 4 of them on my Nova.

If a part of the game forces you to adapt your tactics (don't compete with groups of M3, don't get into 1Kmrange, use missiles, use debris) it isn't good and not balanced. And those PBG have gamebraking performance and the PBE (in vast numbers TC provides) uses an unkind aspect of the players dependance on shields.

Did they forget that they also had PAC or HEPT?

Maybe they adapted too

[Poobah]

Yep. if the game is forcing you to do something that you don't want to then the game is failing. Also the PBG is the worst idea since the chocolate teapot, I'm sorry Egosoft I love you, I do, and all your awesome children. X:BTF is the kind of badass survivalist that you could drop in the artic or the middle of the jungle with only a knife and he'd make it home before you. X2 is his liberal bohemian warrior-poet brother who'll chill out and relax with a little poetry while he sits in his awesome comfy chair and watches the pretty light show that is his Osprey destroying the entire known universe out the window of the bridge. And X3 Reunion is their gun-toting little cousin who's armed to the teeth but would take on a tank with his bare hands or teeth for fun. Now imagine that these three pillars of awesomeness had a child genetically engineered from their best bits. Now imagine that X3:Terran Conflict came along and killed that child with a single burst of Plasma. That's the problem.

@PhoenixFlame : The problem is that the Xenon will always mount a combination of PBE (three seconds later you have no shields) and PAC's or other very efficient hull destroying weapons.

@NS : I'm sorry but that just isn't realistic. PBE's are almost as insta-hit as Kyons and other beam weaponry, and the PBG isn't much better. If you're flying anything that's slower than about 600 m/s then you're toast unless you're in a corvette or better.

@Missile fans : Missiles are boring as hell. If I wanted to sit across the map and throw nukes then I'd play a different game and if I wanted to prove that I could target the enemy and tap the appropriate button to launch mass swarm missiles at the enemy then I needn't even bother warning up the game, hell, I can press the button without even turning my PC on.

And the thing is. If I wanted to get super-rich and spend a whole freaking day screwing around trying to equip the fleet I just bought with the insufficient weapon supplies in the universe then I would. I'd go back to one of the early versions and earn a few easy billion, or I'd learn how to cap with silly marines and go abuse that for all it's worth. But I don't, I want to play X the way I've been playing it since BTF and until TC that's been possible and encouraged.

[DaveyP]

I've found that all Xenon m4's and m3's now carry PBE's, but only a few. The M's seem to have 2 and the L's 4. They seem to carry no other weapons.

This means you can go toe to toe and win, but not too easily. For pirate groups, I scan the ships, missile the ones with PBE or PBG (nastier by far inho) and take on the rest.

[Prutz0r]

Yeah it is a kind of skill but i expect the AI the have a skill too. Not just weapons that always hit you.
Of course i could throw a hammerhead at every patrol - but where's the point. I don't want to use missles to defeat them, i want to get personal. "Stay out of 1Km" - could it be called tactic if you are forced not to come close (dogfight IS actually close range-> 10m to 1,5Km imho) because if you do so you are dead?

Well, you do have a point, that it's not exactly fair for all your enemies to have almost instakill weapons, but then again, I think it's no more than logical for you enemies to mount the best weapons they can. Besides, I have managed to get close to fighters that wielded pbg's. Just not if there were more of them. That you don't want to use missiles is a choice you've made, that you thus limit your options, well, like a said, it's your choice. I think missiles have their uses, just like guns do.

It is easy quiet to nuke a patrol...
And if i would throw a hammerhead on each patrol i have to encounter - where do i get the hammerheads? (i mean groups of xenon or pirates - not military patrol wich should still be hard to defeat them alone but why are they equipped 100% with hardtofind Pirateweapons? Did they forget that they also had PAC or HEPT?)

Ah, yes, I meant that I didn't mean it's easy to defeat a patrol (unless of course when you're spamming hammerheads). Point taken

If a part of the game forces you to adapt your tactics (don't compete with groups of M3, don't get into 1Kmrange, use missiles, use debris) it isn't good and not balanced. And those PBG have gamebraking performance and the PBE (in vast numbers TC provides) uses an unkind aspect of the players dependance on shields.

This is where I don't agree. Adaption has been a core element of gaming since I started to play games regularly. In Doom you would not attack a Baron of hell with your pistol, you adapted and used a better weapon. It was impossible to complete Dune 2 using just Quads. You get better weapons not just for kicks, you need to use them. That, IMHO, is a legitimate "rule" of play. I must admit that TC requires more adaption than most games, though, a couple of hundred game over screens got the message to me..... I'm a slow learner.

Did they forget that they also had PAC or HEPT?

Maybe they adapted too

Well, this seems a bit like AI cheating to me too. Not as much as NPC's instajumping in front of you (especially the terrans, in terran sectors without jumpgates ), not just the Khaak, but everyone. And the fearsome Xenon N, which somehow burned through 150 MJ of shields on my mistral while was watching from about 8 KM out in under 5 seconds. Who needs a boreas when you can do the same amount of damage with 10 N's?

- edit: forgot a few words -

[Gazz]

Nuklearslug, not to sound insulting, but do you have any idea of the scale of what your talking about? Most of the asteroids are larger then the amount of space the entire dog fight takes up. you can't just duck behind them. It doesn't work like that.

Oh yes, it does.

Collision avoidance is a rather vague mechanic in X3 so as long as you are close to an asteroid, the enemy is forced to constantly evade.

[Prutz0r]

Yep. if the game is forcing you to do something that you don't want to then the game is failing. Also the PBG is the worst idea since the chocolate teapot, I'm sorry Egosoft I love you, I do, and all your awesome children. X:BTF is the kind of badass survivalist that you could drop in the artic or the middle of the jungle with only a knife and he'd make it home before you. X2 is his liberal bohemian warrior-poet brother who'll chill out and relax with a little poetry while he sits in his awesome comfy chair and watches the pretty light show that is his Osprey destroying the entire known universe out the window of the bridge. And X3 Reunion is their gun-toting little cousin who's armed to the teeth but would take on a tank with his bare hands or teeth for fun. Now imagine that these three pillars of awesomeness had a child genetically engineered from their best bits. Now imagine that X3:Terran Conflict came along and killed that child with a single burst of Plasma. That's the problem.

@PhoenixFlame : The problem is that the Xenon will always mount a combination of PBE (three seconds later you have no shields) and PAC's or other very efficient hull destroying weapons.

@NS : I'm sorry but that just isn't realistic. PBE's are almost as insta-hit as Kyons and other beam weaponry, and the PBG isn't much better. If you're flying anything that's slower than about 600 m/s then you're toast unless you're in a corvette or better.

@Missile fans : Missiles are boring as hell. If I wanted to sit across the map and throw nukes then I'd play a different game and if I wanted to prove that I could target the enemy and tap the appropriate button to launch mass swarm missiles at the enemy then I needn't even bother warning up the game, hell, I can press the button without even turning my PC on.

And the thing is. If I wanted to get super-rich and spend a whole freaking day screwing around trying to equip the fleet I just bought with the insufficient weapon supplies in the universe then I would. I'd go back to one of the early versions and earn a few easy billion, or I'd learn how to cap with silly marines and go abuse that for all it's worth. But I don't, I want to play X the way I've been playing it since BTF and until TC that's been possible and encouraged.

If the game forces you to do something you don't want to do, maybe you should be playing another game, no offence meant, but developers can't possibly create a game everyone will like.

And if you've been able to play the way you liked up until TC, that's great, that means there are 3 games out there you like, and one you don't like. Does that mean TC is a bad game? Or just that you like the way the older X games were better? It seems like you would like nothing more than another rerun of an older X-game. Once again, no offence meant, it's just the general idea I get from your post. I myself haven't played Reunion for long, a couple of weeks, but I like TC a lot more. As a pilot I don't feel as powerful, but as a player, the possibilities are endless.