[SCR] OOS Combat Rebalance (alpha 0.32 - 06.08.10)

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wyvern11
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Post by wyvern11 » Wed, 10. Jun 09, 21:07

scary movie...

thanks for the 2.1 hint. depending on time i'll do some tests with spawned ships (otherwise only Q's in the log)

*Single* Attack run of 15 M3* (8 cutlass, 7 spitfyre) on a MARS Brigantine IS: two cutlass and a spitfyre lost, one spitfyre severely damaged (looked like plasmaburst)


EDIT:

One Battle, Zeus didn't return fire... Still over sorta fast :

Code: Select all

754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;ATTACK;Trinity Sanctum;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;2;shield DPS;419872;hull DPS;74292;pierce DPS;0;sec left;5;Effectivity Perc;100
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;1;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;5;Effectivity Perc;110
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;0;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;5;Effectivity Perc;120
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;total damage;Shield;2099360;hull;371460;pierce;0;t.size.class;2;sec;5
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Target status;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields;5000000;Hull;400000
754181;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Lasers fired at;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields left;2900640;Hull left;400000
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;ATTACK;Trinity Sanctum;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;2;shield DPS;419872;hull DPS;74292;pierce DPS;0;sec left;12;Effectivity Perc;100
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;1;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;12;Effectivity Perc;110
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;0;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;12;Effectivity Perc;120
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;total damage;Shield;5038464;hull;891504;pierce;0;t.size.class;2;sec;12
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Target status;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields;2916240;Hull;400000
754193;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Lasers fired at;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields left;0;Hull left;25570
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;ATTACK;Trinity Sanctum;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;2;shield DPS;419872;hull DPS;74292;pierce DPS;0;sec left;3;Effectivity Perc;100
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;1;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;3;Effectivity Perc;110
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add battery;0;shield DPS;0;hull DPS;0;pierce DPS;0;sec left;3;Effectivity Perc;120
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;total damage;Shield;1259616;hull;222876;pierce;0;t.size.class;2;sec;3
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Target status;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields;0;Hull;25570
754196;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Lasers fired at;PM1RL-53;Paranid Military Zeus;Shields left;0;Hull left;0;DESTROYED
OnBoard-Weapons

Code: Select all

754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Get config data;Main Ver;25;My Ver; null;Var;GZ.OOSD.SHIP.DATA;Data;NOT FOUND
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;Laser.Setup;Dmg Perc;105;Fight Skill;20;Trade Skill;0;Is.Freighter;0;Hangars;0;Skill Dmg Bonus;5
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add laser;105;Incendiary Bomb Launcher
754084;XM1FI-05;Xenon Small Orbital Weapons Platform;add DPS;2;419872;74292;0;54;Incendiary Bomb Launcher;Amount:;1680

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Post by Gazz » Thu, 11. Jun 09, 22:20

Version 0.28 released.
  • On a version upgrade a log 1340 is created.
    It contains the full laser list with damage values as they are used by OOSD.

    Actual ship damages are still modified for "cockpit laser", carrier, or pilot skill.

    Given DPS values are used as is - against their corresponding target.ship.class.

    "speed corrected %" has already been figured in.
    It only shows at what hit % (and therefore damage %) this laser is operating.
    It's easy to see how the faster lasers are more efficient.
  • All DPS from turrets is halved as intended.
    A turret can only cover 180°.
wyvern11 wrote:One Battle, Zeus didn't return fire... Still over sorta fast :
An OWP (huge target) would need to be "intentionally" attacked by the Zeus.
No counterfire.
Main battery Attacks have to be ordered by the fight script. Only it controls the main batteries.

Still - 15 sec is fast.

Hmm. That OWP had an effective 16.8 IBL and 400000 shield DPS.
It is supposed to have half that because they are turreted so the resulting DPS would be half that number.

In the OWP attack script I let the OWP cheat a bit and attack at longer range, them being stationary guns and all.
They are bolted to the vacuum and therefore have a steadier aim. Or somesuch.

Depending on the OOS timing, a ship might spend up to 30 sec "approaching" while the OWP can already fire.
This might make attacking a Large OWP interesting. Alas, many of them are only lightly equipped. Not remotely enough IBL to give them a proper bite. A L OWP could have 48 IBL.
Now there's a proper fortress!
Do you feel lucky, punk? =)

In vanilla X3, OWP wouldn't attack at all OOS so I guess noone noticed how powerful they could be...


Damage from turrets is now halved (oops) so the counterfire to fighters just got a lot less heavy.
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Post by ragamer » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 11:30

Very interesting initiative. Just a few comments that follow the spirit "OOS as close to IS as possible":


Laser fire evasion is a must to model

A human pilot on X3 (That knows how to strafe) can represent what an Elite AI skilled pilot would do and... Are you hit usually by a Cap battery (MARS equiped or not) on a fast (and small fighter)? No... The number of batteries shot from the same enemy is irrelevant, all can be dodged by the same pattern... Specially if the fighter pilot keeps his distance and uses overloaded Cockpit laser bursts at max distance.

The AI doesn't strafe at all and lacks a "bomber logic" like the above programmed into it, but even like this, speed, size and (paradoxically) shorter laser ranges play a role on AI evasion... All of this, OFC, compared to a single quality of the firing battery... Bullet Speed.

What follows will be a proposal on how to calculate the evasion chances of an average figther (That uses the dumb AI they all have IS) (All units in meters or meters/second). The logic used is a comparison between Time to Hit (TTH) and Time to Evade (TTE):

TTH: LR / BS

TTE: HS / SS

Evasion Factor (EF): TTH / TTE

Where:
LR: Laser Range of the Attacking Fighter
BS: Bullet Speed of the Shooting Battery
HS: Hull Length in the direction of movement
SS: Attacking Fighter Speed

The actual chances can be calculated using different conversions between EF and real chances to avoid completely a hit. The proposal I will give is just a tabular example (the numbers are just a guide and OFC subject to fine tuning):

EF
1-: 0%
2-: 10%
4-: 20%
8-: 40%
12-: 60%
20-: 80%
20+: 90%


There are a lot of details and rationale to explain still and some tricks to speed-up a calculation process like the above... But the post is already big enough so I will add them if there is interest on an idea like this.

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Post by wyvern11 » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 11:50

@gazz I didn't expect the Zeus to CF (misunderstanding), I just expected him to fire at all by regular script. Because my outfitting script maximizes the loadout, OK, my fault (poor Zeus).

Will check again with random / default weaponry

@ragamer evasion is not yet part of the alpha, but has been discussed at length in the "planning-thread" mentioned in first post. feel free to discuss / add your ideas to the solutions posted there
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Post by ragamer » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 11:55

I will add the post to the "planning thread" in a more detailed way... I just added the note about evasion because you are already trying to fine tune damage applied on fighters WITHOUT simulating evasion...

...Meaning that you will have to do the job again, as fighters will be receiving less damage once ANY decent evasion model is in place.

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Post by silenced » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 12:31

About the OWP's, whenever I start a XI + protect Dock/Outpost in a sector with a large OWP close to the gate where the Xenon come from -> all caps trying to attack that thing are going to be TOASTED and the OWP might be down to 25% shields in the end.


Nice fireworks all the time. =)


So they're already VERY powerful IS even with their LIGHT weaponry.



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Post by wyvern11 » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 15:21

sorry ragamer for being too unspecific... I didn't mean you to post your advice to the old discussion thread. it is best to discuss all issues here i think. for convenience sake i have requoted your idea here again.

one thing that does spring to eye is "hull length" which is not easily calculated oos and has some strong limitations. second thing is that since basic damage tables already contain strong statistical information about
fighter damage intake from big/huge weaponry, evasion will probably designed, that capable pilots may reduce the damage but not totally avoid it...

for the moment let us gaze in awe at gazz's scripts and hope oos-rebalance turns out to be what we intended (there is no chance to correct his course, anyway :D)
I have redirected from the Real Script thread to the "Brainstorming one" so here goes my ideas regarding OOS that simulates IS.

This are just the basic MODELING ideas... How to make them IMPLEMENTED in a light load algorithm is a different issue that I will discuss later if some of the concepts here are of interest.

Notice the idea is not realistic... It strictly tries to simulate what X3 IS combat looks like (Don't get confused to what X3 AI IS combat SHOULD like... As X3 AI combat is faaaaaar from perfect and OFC do not match what a player can do). Notice also that the idea tries to use raw data from the game to make this OOS system adapt to whatever custom content is added.

Evasion Model

What follows will be a proposal on how to calculate the evasion chances of an average figther (That uses the dumb AI they all have IS) (All units in meters or meters/second). The logic used is a comparison between Time to Hit (TTH) and Time to Evade (TTE):

TTH: LR / BS

TTE: HS / SS

Evasion Factor (EF): TTH / TTE

Where:
LR: Laser Range of the Attacking Fighter
BS: Bullet Speed of the Shooting Battery
HS: Hull Length in the direction of movement
SS: Attacking Fighter Speed

The actual chances can be calculated using different conversions between EF and real chances to avoid completely a hit. The proposal I will give is just a tabular example (the numbers are just a guide and OFC subject to fine tuning):

EF
1-: 0%
2-: 10%
4-: 20%
8-: 40%
12-: 60%
20-: 80%
20+: 90%

It's important that this chance is an ALL or NOTHING effect, to take into account the real effect on X3 IS combat when a Capital spends all his firepower stupidly on a nimble fighter.

This idea will also automatically adress custom weapons and special case as Flaks and Beams... PSG and Plasma Bursts are very special weapons that could be modeled as impossible to dodge and thus highly effective OOS (But it's basically the same as IS... As anyone fighting Yaki can realize).

There are a lot of details and rationale to explain still and some tricks to speed-up a calculation process like the above... But the post is already big enough so I will add them if there is interest on an idea like this.
EDIT

I wouldn't call what we do just now finetuning - but rather scaling the order of magnitude...
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Post by Gazz » Fri, 12. Jun 09, 15:45

The logic used is a comparison between Time to Hit (TTH) and Time to Evade (TTE):

TTH: LR / BS

TTE: HS / SS

Evasion Factor (EF): TTH / TTE
This would not be compatible with the current system.

Effective Laser DPS already includes bullet speed and is further tuned to hit "it's" equal target.size.class.
(Tables in the 2nd post)

Also "Lasers" do not exist OOS, only up to 3 generic batteries that can contain a multitude of bullet speeds.

The basic rules of "my" game are in the first 2 posts here. Suggestions built on top of these rules are more likely to be used than something that requires a complete rewrite.
Right now, 1 PPC hits a fighter for an average of 1400 shield DPS.

Vanilla TC Laser data as used OOS

Code: Select all

OOS Combat  upgrading  from v27 to v 28,  using data of MARS v462
OOSD:  Laser list - base damage values
Laser.size.class;DPS shield;DPS hull;DPS pierce;speed corrected %;Laser
2;28043;4986;0;60;Photon Pulse Cannon;Amount:;100
2;13638;5178;0;54;Point Singularity Projector;Amount:;100
0;7941;5942;0;84;Phased Array Laser Cannon;Amount:;100
0;10052;7100;0;90;Tri-Beam Cannon;Amount:;100
0;10783;4054;0;90;Plasma Beam Cannon;Amount:;100
2;24992;4422;0;54;Incendiary Bomb Launcher;Amount:;100
2;43836;2516;0;66;Ion Cannon;Amount:;100
...
0;2101;1050;0;90;Alpha Kyon Emitter;Amount:;100
0;11334;600;0;14;Phased Shockwave Generator;Amount:;100
0;763;72;0;52;Impulse Ray Emitter;Amount:;100
0;0;0;70;38;Mass Driver;Amount:;100
0;16372;606;0;90;Pulsed Beam Emitter;Amount:;100
0;2465;7;0;74;Ion Disruptor;Amount:;100
0;3291;840;0;22;Plasma Burst Generator;Amount:;100
How exactly evasion will take place I don't know yet.
I've been tossing some ideas around, toying with separate avoidance/mitigation stats for different ship classes and/or speeds.


I wouldn't call what we do just now finetuning - but rather scaling the order of magnitude...
Hehehe. I just halved most OOS damage in the last version. Sledgehammer finetuning.
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Post by aka1nas » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 01:57

I realize that it's way too early for this kind of feature request, but the combat logging being posted back forth in the thread would make an awesome in-game report if formatted nicely. It would be amazing if I could pull up a somewhat detailed report of combat incidents involving my own ships.

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Post by ragamer » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 02:55

Mmmm I tought your scripts have prepared a "Table Calculation Phase" done at some point each time the game started or on user request (Like FCC libraries for example that the user can "reset" each time a change on Stations is included).

I'm understanding wrong (english is not by native language) or this means the tables will have to be recreated manualy each time custom mods on weapons/ships are used?

Also Hull Length is not a property you can check on ANY object IN SECTOR? FCC for example, uses a subroutine to spawn all Stations on a sector to calculate the sizes of any customization present (on user request, OFC). The test I just made on stations, ships and even asteroids IN SECTOR makes "get object size" function a valuable scanning tool.

Laser Range, Ship Speed and Laser Bullet Speed is not a problem neither...

...The REAL problem comes with the RoF of a Laser which is critical to calculate for ANY real DPS calculation to work and I didn't found ANY way to scan it (Unless the fire turret commands are returning ASAP after a shot is performed (fireretfree result), in which case you can spam ships compatible with the laser you want to meassure and check the number of shots in a certain time period. My script knowledge is a bit dusty still... As my experience is focused on X2 and X3:R interfaces)


My concern is that if you start to relay on static data DERIVED from Vanilla, this basically will prevent the use of this Scripts on Mods around which will be a tremendous Loss as an ambitious project like fixing once and for all OOS discrepancies with IS would have a HIGH desireability in X Community as a whole... That's why my suggestions are Models that get relevant data from IS magnitudes (that later can be "cooked" and tabulated for fast performance, OFC)

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Post by Lancefighter » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 03:51

I believe that the MARS tables required contain the proper rof/range/etc stuff that the mod would need, hence why any mod with mars compatibility text file would instantly make this script compatible as well.
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Post by Gazz » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 11:45

ragamer wrote:Also Hull Length is not a property you can check on ANY object IN SECTOR? FCC for example, uses a subroutine to spawn all Stations on a sector to calculate the sizes of any customization present (on user request, OFC). The test I just made on stations, ships and even asteroids IN SECTOR makes "get object size" function a valuable scanning tool.
I'm familiar with most script instructions.
I have a working library for that function. I already outlined the reasons for not wanting to use it (if possible) in the development thread.

...The REAL problem comes with the RoF of a Laser which is critical to calculate for ANY real DPS calculation to work and I didn't found ANY way to scan it .
X3's timing is frame based so any attempt for an in-game accurate ROF measurement is going to fail.

Lancefighter wrote:I believe that the MARS tables required contain the proper rof/range/etc stuff that the mod would need, hence why any mod with mars compatibility text file would instantly make this script compatible as well.
Exactly. Ulfius provides the MARS data for his CMOD3 and I don't know of any other such mod.

Since MARS has quite a bit of popularity on it's own, I may actually leave this dependancy in.
That way modders only have to create one "MARS file".
And it's not that much work really since I can provide them with a spreadsheet to automatically export the data with proper formatting. No, I'm not distributing this freely. That would mean too many questions from people who can't really work with a spreadsheet spanning several tables.


Gazz wrote:Yes, I want some skill based damage mitigation(always) and avoidance (rare).

Avoidance and mitigation don't need to be constant, either.
Everquest uses these to balance the melee classes.
Real tanks (tm) have high mitigation, resulting in low but constant damage that the healers can rely on and keep up with.
Involuntary tanks like rangers and whatnot have high avoidance allowing them to often well... avoid getting hit. But if that fails it hurts. Really bad. So they can tank in a pinch but that keeps the healer on his toes.

X3 fighters would clearly use mostly avoidance, which would be based on speed (size?) as the "main attribute".
Dancing around PPC bullets is fine but if you do get hit, it's not funny.

An M2 is built to get hit. It's the main tank of our party.
Avoidance? Pah! Gimme your best shot!
M2 could get mitigation, making them the tough cookies they are supposed to be.

Variable evasion systems can probably be tailored to our needs easier than one "formula to rule them all".
I'm thinking about how evasion and such should work.

I could script damage mitigation for M2 and probably also M7 without hangers.
That would work OOS + IS.
Something like: every 1 sec, 30% of the sustained shield damage is restored.
That would allow me to selectively make M2 (as an example) last longer in a fight without having to rebalance the whole game like with changing TShields or TBullets.

I would tie that into the AI Ammo Cheat script, which I already consider a requirement for "believable" fights vs the AI.
So this script would only activate during a fight and completely vanish while there is nothing left to do.

wyvern11 wrote:for the moment let us gaze in awe at gazz's scripts and hope oos-rebalance turns out to be what we intended (there is no chance to correct his course, anyway :D)
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'cause that's easier to do.

But still... suggestions that fit into what's currently there are always welcome. =)
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Post by Draguun » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 14:05

A question or two to OWPs. Is it important or make it a difference if the MaxSpeed is "1" and not "0" like in Vanilla ?? Make your script a difference or is it equal ? Or is the main thing that it is an OWP !?
Actually I use (not your script) the OWPs with MaxSpeed=1, so they use OOS NOT their rocket script. They act like a huge fighter....very huge....finally speedless, but it works.
When I switch to your OOS :) , did they work or turn the OWPs into scrap metal ?
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Post by Gazz » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 14:29

Draguun wrote:A question or two to OWPs. Is it important or make it a difference if the MaxSpeed is "1" and not "0" like in Vanilla ?? Make your script a difference or is it equal ? Or is the main thing that it is an OWP !?
I corrected the actual bug in the OWP fight script so the workaround of giving them speed is no longer needed.

In fact, OWP are now better off using their OWP script because they were designed to do that in the first place.
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Post by Gazz » Sat, 13. Jun 09, 19:25

Okay, damage mitigation already works.

However, it would be illogical to just use it OOS. It made no sense.


So, kinda as a spinoff I put it into:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=248906

As a result, a Tiger will last longer as a Panther - both IS and OOS - even though they have identical shield and hull stats.
I invented... shield and hull armour.
And the Tiger has it while the Panther is a carrier.

Sucks to be a Panther. =)
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