is the New Hyperion M7 too powerful?

[Red Squirrel]

When I get into a spat in my new M7 the enemy mostly comes off worse & invariably looses the fight. The only exception is the Xenon sectors which normally have overwhealming numbers of ships.

My M7's now patrol all key sectors & have not lost one yet so is this ship too powerful & unbalancing the game. Where we really meant to reverse engineer it & build it in large n umbers as I am doing?

[fud]

It's a single player game, you can do whatever the hell you want to.


As for me, *I* think they're a bit too powerful, but that doesn't mean I have to use them. Hell, I sold it the second I got it back to the SY in Grand Exchange.

They probably didn't plan on players having multiple HQs either, but I made a script that adds them to Argon shipyards to buy (for the budget price of 97M each, that's what they defaulted to).


It's your game, you can play it however makes you enjoy it the most.

[biggie1447]

if it had bppc then it would be too powerful

as it is right now... it may be a little over powered but you would think that with the khaak threat the military powers would be building more powerful and better ships

you just got a prototype

[Java Jawa]

It still doesn't pwn like a Titan, but I think that we needed to have an exclusive ship that no one else in the galaxy could have and the Hyperion filled that gap. It does have weaknesses - the turrets have limited pivoting range and there are blind spots in a cylindrical area around the centre of the vessel. It can also be mobbed quite easily by fighters - I went on a l'il run through LooManckStrats down to Cardinal's Domain and had to jump there eventually because it attracted so many pirates. I tried it again in my Centaur and I made the run safely without too much aggression, even though it is slower, not as well shielded and with less firepower.

EDIT: I hope in X4 that M7s will go into full-scale production by all races. Ever since M6s had their hangar bays dropped, we could use a vessel between capital ships and M6s - and Hyperion seems to fill that role nicely.

[Duodecimal]

Imagine having access to the X-BTF version of the X-Shuttle.

A M5-size vessel solos the M0.

[Red Squirrel]

If I think about the M7 it is twice as fast as a Python with nearly the same eqivalent fire power as the Python is so slow half of its guns miss the intended target because its moved away. No escape in the M7 - it is a battleship faster than some fighters and I would not like to meet the Khaak in one!!

[pjknibbs]

My own inclination is to say it IS too powerful, yes--its major problem is the extremely slow shield recharge you get with only three 1GJ shields, but in every other way it's so far advanced of a corvette that it's a joke. If it was faster than a corvette, or more manoeuvrable, or better armed, or better shielded, then that would be OK, but all four at once in a ship which is no bigger than a typical corvette is just overkill.

In my opinion, they should rebalance corvettes to make them more like the very heavy fighters they actually are--that means increasing their speed and manoeuvrability while keeping other parameters the same. Then the M7 frigate class ships should be more like mini-destroyers--they should have less speed and handling than the corvettes, with most of their firepower in the turrets to compensate. Make 'em 2 or 3 times their current size, too--it makes no sense that a power plant so much more powerful than the one in a corvette fits in a ship that is about the same size.

Of course, people are free to disagree with this opinion if they want--I'm just suggesting how I think they should be rebalanced.

[X3_Xenon]

I think it´s ok, my brother has 3 of them.
They are after all very expensive, atleast do I think so.

[Le Baron]

1. who cares. As said above. It's up to you to use it. If you do not use it, it can not unbalance the game.

2. as said also above: It's a prototype

3. Try to fight with your M7 against Khaak or bigger amounts of enemies .....

[-eni-]

Bigger amounts of enemys is ok if you relace 2 of the 1GJ shields with 125MJ shields.

Only 1/3 maximum shildpower but 3 times reacharge. And recharge is what counts a lot too.

All in al i think the M7 fit. Only thing that does realy not fit is M6.

[Stu Austin]

If people don't like the M7 and think it is too powerful, blow it up and forever be done with it. Its your choice and its my choice to use it like I want. I have no complaints about the M7.

[DenYaSis]

I haven't done anything from the Bala Gi missions (keep getting distracted and forgetting about it, lol), But I tend to agree with pjnibbs (only in reverse) about the M6's.

They do seem out of place, but with the M3+'s as "extra heavy" fighters, I think having the M6's become more like heavy fighters, would seem redundant. They really do need a ship to fill an escort roll for the capital ships, though.

IMHO, its really hard to make a ship fit this roll without becoming too fighter like or too destroyer like. Making the corvette a little larger, slower, and less maneuverable, while adding some power to the turrets, might be a solution.

Although I"m really intrigued by the M7, I just need to remember to do the mission, lol.

[fud]

If people don't like the M7 and think it is too powerful, blow it up and forever be done with it. Its your choice and its my choice to use it like I want. I have no complaints about the M7.

Indeed. I didn't like it, so I made my own. It's based on the Goner Truelight Seeker.

[Danno]

In my opinion, they don't need the M7 at all. What they need to do is to put the teeth back in the M6.

I'm not a big history buff but if I remember correctly, Corvette's were a smallish, powerfull ship, used mainly for sub busting. They had to be powerfull and fast to get the job done. A Corvette should be able to do lone duty as a sector defender or work as a capital ship escort. Weakening them so much that they need a fighter escort to be able to defend a sector just makes them useless.

Until they beef M6's back up, I'll be happy to use the M7 and let the M6's sit in the shipyard.

[Mandrak]

There was the same type of "cry's" few years ago, and we got m6's "nerfed", and i know that manny ppl miss "X2 type of m6" a lot, i know i do.

So, please, dont ask for that

Anyway, as i agree with pj, and i think that m6 should be better implemented in the game.

As for m7, i think it just need's to be a lot harder to obtain one. Something like "Averice" 600-900 m for blue prints so you can build them in your PHQ.

For that sum of cash, i expect nothing less then overpowered ship

[Observe]

The Hyperion is WAY too powerful. It has completely skewed the X3 balancing of ships. This was a big mistake in my opinion. It seems Egosoft had a definite hickup on this one.

[GradeALunatic]

i like it, but it is a bit powerful, after reading some things here, i've decided not to reverse engineer it, but i still like it, i consider it like, my flagship

one of a kind

[Observe]

i like it, but it is a bit powerful, after reading some things here, i've decided not to reverse engineer it, but i still like it, i consider it like, my flagship
one of a kind

I would generally agree with you GradeALunatic, except that the Hyperion is a REALLY inferior X3 ship model. I mean the texturing is rather poor, and definitely not up to Egosoft standards - more like something done by a lesser able modeler - not what we have come to expect from X3 (of course the models from X2 are far superiior to those in X3).

[SnakeMaster]

, but I think that we needed to have an exclusive ship that no one else in the galaxy could have and the Hyperion filled that gap.

I totaly agree...it fits in the game perfectly for the above simple point, a great many players want something that no other race have, yes it is overpowerd to other ships for its SIZE, but as several people have pointed out its an advanced prototype.....so it will be, but its not overpowerd for the price.... powerfull as it is it still cant take on a destoyer say even a Titan ( im talking under AI not plyer controlled before you reply ) which cost 69 million... if you sell the M7 it goes for 35? Million half the cost...havent tried it but reackon you would need 3 maybe even 4 to take out any destroyer....so yes its still balanced.......in the end its just the M6 which looks underpowerd ( which its always been..more spd and man please) and should be rebalanced a little.

[dostillevi]

I think that Homeworld had an excellent understanding of ship classes and roles, and I wish some of that understanding was better applied in X3.

In the case of the M6, consider it as a medium sized vessel designed for capital ship or station assault. Its not really designed to go up against ships smaller than itself, mostly due to all the forward facing guns.

The M7, on the other hand, is designed to take out ships of M6 class and smaller. It has superior mobility and firepower, but more of that is directed towards the turrets.

iusually, the who kills who goes something like this:

fighters<-corvettes<-frigates<-capital ships

whats missing is the capital ships<-fighters. Ships in X3 are much more general than those in homeworld, where each ship had a specific role. There were fighter class bombers who faired very poorly against other fighters but were maneuverable and could easily take down a large target. Interceptors, on the other hand, had small accurate weapons and were designed for dogfighting. They were excellent ships to use against bombers and other interceptors.

Corvettes were basically what M3+ class ships are in X3. They were heavy fighters with turrets that were slower than interceptors but could put up much more of a fight. Corvettes typically won out over fighters, except bombers could sometimes give them a run for their money since they were considerably slower than fighters and thus vulnerable to the slow moving plasma bombs from the bombers.

Frigates, which are basically M6 and M7 class, filled several roles. Some were specialized to fight against fighters with flak cannons in turrets, while others had powerful forward facing weapons only. Other variations included a frigate with minimal weaponry but a large bay for drones and good shields, and shield frigates that were able to produce a protective shield surrounding nearby ships (no equivalent exists in X3). Frigate combat was an art of mixed arms. In numbers and with appropriate support, a group of ion frigates (powerful forward facing lasers) could easily destroy a capital ship, but they were useless against corvettes and frigates because they could not turn fast enough to bring the lasers to bear against the fast fighters. Flak frigates were essentially a specialty item used for guarding capital ships from those dangerous bombing runs. Drone frigates were multipurpose, but typically were best deployed as a distraction to fighters.

Capital ships came in two varieties, the destroyer and missile destroyer. The destroyer was an all purpose killing machine equivalent to the X3 M2 class. While almost completely ineffective against corvettes and fighters, the destroyer was essential for providing the heavy fire necessary to bring down other capital ships and frigates. It is a tough choice when encountering a group of ion frigates and a destroyer whether to go for the destroyer first or the frigates. The missile destroyer, on the other hand, was multipurpose. It would fire a barrage of missiles while staying at maximum range from its target. The missiles were equally effective against fighters and capital ships, but in a 1 on 1 fight a regular destroyer would always defeat a missile destroyer.

Finally, there was one last class of capital ships (not counting the motherships, which would be M0). These ships were lumbering hulks of massive firepower designed solely to take out large targets. There is no equivalent in X3.

Well.. I think you see the correlations between X3 ships and Homeworld ships, as well as the differences. X3 ships are very general purpose whereas Homeworld ships had a clear purpose and were carefully balanced to it. In my opinion, X3 would be a better game if it followed these ship design conventions more closely.

It wouldn't even be that hard to modify the existing ships to work in this way. Tweaks to available weapon classes could turn M4s into bombers, while M5s are scouts and M3s act as interceptors. M3+s are basically fine the way they are (considering the cost differences between M3s and M3+s). M6s would take a decent amount of tweaking, but if both M6s and M7s could be made to be used by the races, the M6s could be turned into anti-capital ship frigates with very poor turning, decent speed, and massive frontal firepower. It would be absolutely essential to protect them with wingmen or M7 class ships, which would be slightly less powerful than they are now in all respects with weapons limited to flaks, IREs, PBEs, CIGs, and PSGs in the turrets, PACs in the front turrets, and missiles. While they would be very effective against larger vessels or M6s, they would be devastating against figher craft. Also make another M6 class vessel with no weapons capability but a decent sized bay, good shields, and the ability to construct combat drones (or at least hold a lot). Capital ships can stay as they are. I forgot to mention carriers in Homeworld, but they are basically the same as in X3. It would add an interesting twist to have a missile destroyer, a ship that had missiles as its only weapon. Of course the missile destroyer in X3 was able to generate its own missiles.. maybe a script to do this. Let it use only Aurora missiles but also self replicate them.

IF all these things were changed, each ship would finally have a useful role. Scouts could be used for, well, scouting, M4s would have a bomber variation that could hold 1 PPC turret, a better generator to sustain it, and no ability to combat other fighters, and M3s would be necessary to protect against M2 Bombers. Frigates would be essential support ships, either to provide supporting heavy fire or an anti-fighter barrier for capital ships. Drone frigates would just be fun . Capital ships would still be essential for fighting each other and providing fighter support. You'd still be in a lot of trouble if a capital ship fleet showed up and all you had was a fleet of frigates and smaller.

well.. I think I just came up with an idea for a mod.. guess I'll head over to the modding forums and see if there are any takers :-p...

oh and if anyone wants to play Homeworld 2 well.. bring it

now that I'm so far off topic: a homeworld blog I started once:
http://dostillevi.blogspot.com/

it has a few pics and some stories/advice I wrote