[X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

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limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:08

Edna wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:44
limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:30
Like this interesting balance.

2 Cyclops(M2) and 30 Appallox(m6) - was not able to defeat OCV invasion(37% signals). When M2 OCV spawned - almost all where dead.

6 Terns(m6 fighter carrier) and 150 M3 Cougars: easy def and conquer many sectors....poor argons

Image

P.S. Love my Zerg Fleet :lol:

P.S. Lags and freeze like hell when in sector with all of them
Corvettes are absolutely useless against OCV. A swarm of 200 M5s can destroy any OCV destroyer, though. The idea is to provide so many fast targets that the OCV can not keep up destroying them all in time. You can combine it with artillery frigates and dreadnoughts, but the swarms will be most important.
Interesting... So about 200 Mjolnirs with EMPC against one M2. That's will be great FUN. TY for info wanna try it

Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:13

limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:08
Edna wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:44
limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:30
Like this interesting balance.

2 Cyclops(M2) and 30 Appallox(m6) - was not able to defeat OCV invasion(37% signals). When M2 OCV spawned - almost all where dead.

6 Terns(m6 fighter carrier) and 150 M3 Cougars: easy def and conquer many sectors....poor argons

Image

P.S. Love my Zerg Fleet :lol:

P.S. Lags and freeze like hell when in sector with all of them
Corvettes are absolutely useless against OCV. A swarm of 200 M5s can destroy any OCV destroyer, though. The idea is to provide so many fast targets that the OCV can not keep up destroying them all in time. You can combine it with artillery frigates and dreadnoughts, but the swarms will be most important.
Interesting... So about 200 Mjolnirs with EMPC against one M2. That's will be great FUN. TY for info wanna try it
I've thought that M3s were the best to go for, but now I'm having trouble replenishing my fleet after 3 waves of OCV killing half of my swarming M3s from terraforming 1 planet! How better are M4s compared to M3s?

Edna
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Edna » Sat, 17. Oct 20, 01:47

Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:13
I've thought that M3s were the best to go for, but now I'm having trouble replenishing my fleet after 3 waves of OCV killing half of my swarming M3s from terraforming 1 planet! How better are M4s compared to M3s?
OCV ships use a weapon that is highly accurate, fast and super powerful. Their only disadvantage is a rather average shot frequency. Most OCV ships will always target a ship with multiple guns or turrets at the same time. They will very likely hit. It's a matter of calculating how many resources per hit you can afford to lose. 100 M3s are able to deal a big punch, yes, but 100 M3s are a very, very, very costly investment. As such it is better to use the cheapest possible ship with the best possible damage output. I personally speculate that the best ships for swarming tactics are the cheapest ones with a thin profile, basically the M5s of the Split and the Teladi and partially of the Paranids. If an M5 manages to dodge OCV volley shots, that effectively saves a whole lot of resources.

As for weaponry, it depends on your weapon production output. PACs are super reliable in terms of damage and price. If you can sustain to produce something heavier, go for that. Keep in mind that time is also a resource, especially when dealing with OCV.

Beating an OCV fleet requires you to utilize every single advantage and combat skill you've aquired in X3 and Mayhem. Brute Force will work if your numbers are high enough, but fighting the OCV will always come with one hell of a punishment in terms of losses. The rewards however make up for it.

Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:00
I didn't know you could board and take hive queens (I've killed 4 already). Are you able to take control of them?
I didn't try it yet, but unless Joubarbe was like "Here is something cool but you personally won't be able to have it!", I would simply assume that you can board them and then control them just like any other ship. X2 and vanilla X3 allowed to claim Khaak snubs, too, and we know the Khaak do hentai-esque things to people on their ships, so a boarding team should be able to walk around inside a Hive Queen and return the favor.

How to pull it off, though, that's a different topic. I guess placing an Aran infront of it and using it to tank the beams while I control the boarding party will be a good start. And 100 1xGun M5s to draw the aggro might help, too. And having a second and third marine team will probably be useful as well.
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Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Sat, 17. Oct 20, 10:41

Edna wrote:
Sat, 17. Oct 20, 01:47
Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:00
I didn't know you could board and take hive queens (I've killed 4 already). Are you able to take control of them?
I didn't try it yet, but unless Joubarbe was like "Here is something cool but you personally won't be able to have it!", I would simply assume that you can board them and then control them just like any other ship. X2 and vanilla X3 allowed to claim Khaak snubs, too, and we know the Khaak do hentai-esque things to people on their ships, so a boarding team should be able to walk around inside a Hive Queen and return the favor.

How to pull it off, though, that's a different topic. I guess placing an Aran infront of it and using it to tank the beams while I control the boarding party will be a good start. And 100 1xGun M5s to draw the aggro might help, too. And having a second and third marine team will probably be useful as well.
Moments after I wrote that I'd see one, I actually saw one. Anyway, you can't board them unfortunately. It looks like you can board only ships that are already researchable. Since Hive Queen and OCV ships aren't available for research, it makes sense that you can't get those ships. I'd wish I could fly a Hive Queen so that its turrets could shred capital in seconds (their beams suck against fighters but shred capitals really well thanks to shield penetration).

Off-topic: in early versions of Mayhem 2 (specifically 2.10 and before, but this was 3 years ago; I still have 2.09 on my very old laptop), you could scan and build your own OCV ships. It wasn't until later versions that they were deemed too OP for the player to use and were thus made unobtainable. It was even possible to capture Kha'ak M3/M4/M5 in later versions when they spawn to attack your miners, but this was accidental. Interestingly, the M2+ and M7 used are based on XTM/XTC's Kha'ak M2+ and M7.

You could have 1 OCV M2, a couple of Gs, some PXes, and a swarm of O (better than OX since it had 200 MJ shield) for your god-tier fleet 1-shotting anything. 2.09 and before didn't allow you to get PXes.

EDIT: Hive queen doesn't work. Updated.
Last edited by Betelgeuse97 on Sat, 17. Oct 20, 12:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Hector0x » Sat, 17. Oct 20, 10:43

Whenever you can't tank with your hp or armor, you have to bring characters or spells which provide high dodge. Or distract the enemy with a lot of cheap summons. If he can only ever attack one unit at a time, his damage output gets severely limited by each summon's hp.

No ship type can effectively tank against the OCV. Dodging doesn't work due to high projectile speeds. So you need something similar to a cheap summon. M5 or M4 will work.
M3 with heavy weapons are worse summons, because they also die in a single hit and you loose 10 times the resources you would loose with a very low cost summon. Keep in mind that some M5 are more expensive than M4. Their is no clear answer on which class to use. But i wouldn't use high tier fighter weapons on either of them (EMPC), unless wasting crystals is no issue. But if that was the case you could do with less crystal fabs/solar plants and have more ship part factories in the first place.

M4:
- better if you want your summon to be the damage dealer. M4 generally have more gun slots and a lot more energy power than M5. And the cost difference between M5>M4 is very low compared to M4>M3.
- 5MJ shields are a lot cheaper than M1 shields. (but against the OCV i'd argue that shields are useless on M4, better get more ships instead)
- this method makes tactics very easy. You basically only need to make sure that your swarm attacks together.

M5
- typically M5 offer way worse combat effectiveness than M4 (for DPS, entry level weaponry like IRE, PAC or MD is a bit less cost effective than tier 2 lasers like PRG or EBC)
- but some M5 designs are the cheapest flying things you can get. They limit OCV damage the most.
- they are only good for distraction. Trying to have them also do much of the damage is less cost effective than with M4.
- use a very cheap M5 with only 1 weapon to minimize the cost of your flying thing. And low range on the weapon to lure the OCV into attacking mostly them. Never use shields on M5.
- if you go this route the rest of your fleet needs to deliver most of the damage. Having high range on them is good.
- this method requires more tactics because your distraction summons need to make first contact, but also get support soon after.
- it should be harder to retreat a mixed fleet with M5 distractions than a pure fleet with M4 damage dealers

Also worth noting is the population cost for each ship. It can get very difficult to maintain swarming tactics with very cheap ships because they get built very fast. Basically your population gets drained until your production speed is low enough to match the population growth. Looping a very cheap M5 will eventually limit your population to something like 60 or so. Having more shipyards helps.

I believe a mix of M4 and M5 is most effective. Fast and deadly. The OCV is just too powerful to risk shiny capships. If it goes south you can still hit "flee all" and have a good chance to save most of your fleet.

Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Sat, 17. Oct 20, 10:49

Hector0x wrote:
Sat, 17. Oct 20, 10:43
Whenever you can't tank with your hp or armor, you have to bring characters or spells which provide high dodge. Or distract the enemy with a lot of cheap summons. If he can only ever attack one unit at a time, his damage output gets severely limited by each summon's hp.

No ship type can effectively tank against the OCV. Dodging doesn't work due to high projectile speeds. So you need something similar to a cheap summon. M5 or M4 will work.
M3 with heavy weapons are worse summons, because they also die in a single hit and you loose 10 times the resources you would loose with a very low cost summon. Keep in mind that some M5 are more expensive than M4. Their is no clear answer on which class to use. But i wouldn't use high tier fighter weapons on either of them (EMPC), unless wasting crystals is no issue. But if that was the case you could do with less crystal fabs/solar plants and have more ship part factories in the first place.

M4:
- better if you want your summon to be the damage dealer. M4 generally have more gun slots and a lot more energy power than M5. And the cost difference between M5>M4 is very low compared to M4>M3.
- 5MJ shields are a lot cheaper than M1 shields. (but against the OCV i'd argue that shields are useless on M4, better get more ships instead)
- this method makes tactics very easy. You basically only need to make sure that your swarm attacks together.

M5
- typically M5 offer way worse combat effectiveness than M4 (for DPS, entry level weaponry like IRE, PAC or MD is a bit less cost effective than tier 2 lasers like PRG or EBC)
- but some M5 designs are the cheapest flying things you can get. They limit OCV damage the most.
- they are only good for distraction. Trying to have them also do much of the damage is less cost effective than with M4.
- use a very cheap M5 with only 1 weapon to minimize the cost of your flying thing. And low range on the weapon to lure the OCV into attacking mostly them. Never use shields on M5.
- if you go this route the rest of your fleet needs to deliver most of the damage. Having high range on them is good.
- this method requires more tactics because your distraction summons need to make first contact, but also get support soon after.
- it should be harder to retreat a mixed fleet with M5 distractions than a pure fleet with M4 damage dealers

Also worth noting is the population cost for each ship. It can get very difficult to maintain swarming tactics with very cheap ships because they get built very fast. Basically your population gets drained until your production speed is low enough to match the population growth. Looping a very cheap M5 will eventually limit your population to something like 60 or so. Having more shipyards helps.

I believe a mix of M4 and M5 is most effective. Fast and deadly. The OCV is just too powerful to risk shiny capships. If it goes south you can still hit "flee all" and have a good chance to save most of your fleet.
I'm going to make another fleet and try out M4s, or probably mix and mash my M4s with M3+. I do however notice that M3s+ are able to survive if most of the shots from 1 burst miss. It's also notable with the Rs since they got only 2 guns to work with per turret.

Also, why would you not put shields on an M5 other than being a waste of crystals? How do enemies prioritize targets?

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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Hector0x » Sat, 17. Oct 20, 11:14

i don't think shields have an impact on target priorities.

But with 1 MJ shields you're paying the maximum for each shield unit, so i just never use them ever.
5MJ shields are a bit cheaper, but still very bad cost ratio in my opinion. The cheapest shields are 1GJ and 2GJ. Both have the lowest price per shield unit.

vince8290
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by vince8290 » Sun, 18. Oct 20, 09:22

Has the "corrupt savegame after boarding" problem been elucidated ?

I discovered this morning that my last 3 savegames are corrupted :(
Do we know what causes it ?

I saw a discussion about a month ago about that which sort of stopped there.
I can tell that I (nor my target) didn't fly through a wormhole during a mission.
Thanks

limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Sun, 18. Oct 20, 16:50

Going to terraform last planet. A i know there is 24hrs to prepare for global OCV invasion...

Can you tell and help me with some info without spoilers?

5 m2, 30 m7, 100 M6 and around 500+ m3 will be enough? Or better to load last save game and prepare?

Edna
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Edna » Sun, 18. Oct 20, 16:55

That's hard to tell since it strongly depends on how you approach the OCV with that mass of ships. Chances are all of those M6s are pretty useless and that you should rather invest into M4s and M5s for swarming. The M2s and M7s should take care of the fighters and corvettes while the small ships should swarm the capitals. Don't allow an OCV capital ship to get close to your capitals. Bait the small ships to your capitals. You want to try and take on their fleet one by one instead of the whole bunch.
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ItsMeAUsername
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by ItsMeAUsername » Sun, 18. Oct 20, 17:05

Is anyone else experiencing significantly worse performance in Mayhem 3 compared to LU or Mayhem 1?
I've not played in a while, but I seem to recall being able to run LU and also Mayhem 1 with 6-8x SETA without the FPS dropping too low. Now, in Mayhem 3.4 I have a slide show (probably single digit FPS) with 4-5x SETA in a fairly new galaxy, only a few hours in. Of course I tried dropping shader details, etc, to low - no effect. Also, none of my CPU cores, let alone GPU are maxing out during SETA. I guess the latter is an engine issue, but i am fairly sure performance used to be better before. Anyone else having similar experiences and/or tips on how to improve the FPS? Find it difficult to fly around with only 3x SETA, especially without jumpdrives.
No idea if that's related, but I also noticed that at some trading stations around 50+ trades pile up, with only 2 ships docked. A bit odd.
Anyway, besides those issues, amazing work Joubarbe! Was a pleasure coming back to X3 and seeing that you've continued development of Mayhem.

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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Hector0x » Sun, 18. Oct 20, 19:38

@ItsMeAUsername: check if you're using an outdated version. Surplus of traders is causing all the lag. Has been fixed in the latest release.

ItsMeAUsername
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by ItsMeAUsername » Mon, 19. Oct 20, 00:10

Hector0x wrote:
Sun, 18. Oct 20, 19:38
@ItsMeAUsername: check if you're using an outdated version. Surplus of traders is causing all the lag. Has been fixed in the latest release.
I was 99% sure I was running 3.4d and even double checked before posting, because of reading the patch log. Well, turns out I am just bad at distinguishing d from b. Updating solved it - runs smooth now. Thanks!

vince8290
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by vince8290 » Mon, 19. Oct 20, 08:52

ItsMeAUsername wrote:
Sun, 18. Oct 20, 17:05
Is anyone else experiencing significantly worse performance in Mayhem 3 compared to LU or Mayhem 1?
I've not played in a while, but I seem to recall being able to run LU and also Mayhem 1 with 6-8x SETA without the FPS dropping too low. Now, in Mayhem 3.4 I have a slide show (probably single digit FPS) with 4-5x SETA in a fairly new galaxy, only a few hours in. Of course I tried dropping shader details, etc, to low - no effect. Also, none of my CPU cores, let alone GPU are maxing out during SETA. I guess the latter is an engine issue, but i am fairly sure performance used to be better before. Anyone else having similar experiences and/or tips on how to improve the FPS? Find it difficult to fly around with only 3x SETA, especially without jumpdrives.
No idea if that's related, but I also noticed that at some trading stations around 50+ trades pile up, with only 2 ships docked. A bit odd.
Anyway, besides those issues, amazing work Joubarbe! Was a pleasure coming back to X3 and seeing that you've continued development of Mayhem.
Update to 3.4d, that fixes the problem

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alexalsp
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by alexalsp » Wed, 21. Oct 20, 07:17

Please add the "Cheat Menu" hotkey if possible.

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