[X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

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Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Thu, 15. Oct 20, 10:50

4square425 wrote:
Thu, 15. Oct 20, 05:25
Does anyone have opinions of missiles in Mayhem 3? I have a few Silicon Mines, plus whatever my miners obtain, however, I'm not certain what sort of missiles to produce. Right now, I just have one factory looping chaff. I'm also uncertain about the worth of the three chaff systems, is the level 3 chaff worth the crystals? With all the missiles enemies pack in this version, I wonder how good a level 2 chaff system would do for blue crystals.
As Edna said, M7M missiles are viable, but they're best used as support instead. Since missiles are limited, your few silicon mines are most likely enough to fully sustain only 2 M7Ms or 1 ~100 M3 fleet, provided that the missile you arm your M3s with is something light and decent damaging such as poltergeist.

Hammers/shadows are great against M6s (2 hammer volleys from an M7M will kill an undamaged P, taking chaff into account), but they should not be used against fighters unlike in vanilla/LU since they're slower and less agile than flails. Damage wise, shadows outclass hammers slightly. For anti-fighter, ghouls are better than flails for burst damage (ghouls hit about 2x as hard) but flails shoot about 2x faster and deal less overkill damage when your M7M is supporting your fleet.

Level 2 chaff is good enough for its cost. 3 is a bit stretching it imo, but it's good to have on your M1/M2.

Off-topic 1: Boron and Paranid M7s are underpowered. They don't have any anti-fighter M7 weapons since CFA, PALC, and FAA are locked to Argon, Split, and Teladi (race specific guns), and there's no universal M7 anti-fighter gun. The only universal M7 guns that all M7s can use are PPC and IBL. That leaves only the weaker M6-class weapons (namely CIG, M/A, GRC, PSG for Paranid, and IPG for Boron). Could Paranid ships be given back their TBC that was taken away with Mayhem 3? (TBCs are now locked to M2s only (not even M7s at all), and similar guns like the FBC and PALC are available for M7s to use.)

If the above isn't feasible, what about buffing the M/A launcher (there's no reason to use it over other weapons given M/A's poor DPS) so that it's on par or at least slightly weaker than CFA/FFA/PALC but restricted to M7+ only?

Off-topic 2 (bug report): I found an oversight with transferring control of sectors. If you build an outpost in a sector and transfer control, your outpost stays, but the AI cannot fully use it. They can use it for workers, but they cannot build any ships from it. I think this is because the player uses the player version of an "Outpost" while other factions use "(Faction) Outpost." It should be that a player's outpost turns into an NPC version (from "Outpost" to "Teladi Outpost" for example if transferring control to Teladi). Alternatively, the player outpost can simply be destroyed by transferring control while leaving factories intact. Right now the only workaround for this is to build a factory and then transfer control so that a "useless" station doesn't take up a station slot.

Save and galaxy: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... ZGOfduljn6

Details:
- My save there has a player outpost in Holy Vision, named "Holy Vision Outpost." In the same sector is a "Teladi Outpost" that does everything the normal NPC outpost does, but the player outpost owned by the Teladi doesn't build anything.
- Reproduce as follows:
1. Get an unknown sector. My save has PLENTY of them in the eastern half of the universe map.
2. Place an outpost to take control of the sector.
3. Enter that sector yourself and transfer control to a faction (in my case, I'm +7 with Split and Teladi, so either works).
4. The player outpost will stay. Notice that only food and waste will generate, not EC and ship equipment.
5. Wait a little bit and a faction outpost will spawn in.
6. At this point, the only ways to fix this issue are to either destroy it somehow or just let it sit and have your traders use it for extra scrap and food. Interestingly, the NPC-controlled player outpost allows you to dock at it directly unlike the faction outpost.

Edit: Added off-topic 2.
Last edited by Betelgeuse97 on Thu, 15. Oct 20, 12:06, edited 3 times in total.

dunderhead327
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.3d

Post by dunderhead327 » Thu, 15. Oct 20, 12:03

I disagree to some extent. The Boron and Paranid M7s aren't underpowered, it's more that everyone else's are overpowered. As I said before I think that the IBL and PPC should be Capital class weapons, locked to M1/M2. They are the two biggest lasers in the game, with ROFs of 3.3 and 2.7 respectively.

Also, the Argon M1s and M7s should be able to use the FBC, as the Terrans' can. It's a lot smaller than either of the above, yet is the only laser which Argon M2s can use, but their M7s can't.

As far as I can see, there are no lasers which Split capital ships can mount, but their M7s can't, and the FBC is the only one like that for the Argons. Changing the IBL, PPC, and FBC would bring them more into line with the other races.

I would suggest that it makes sense that the anti-fighter weapons of one class are the main armament of the next smaller class, and that every ship should be able to mount all the weapons that smaller ships of its race can. After all, in WW2 battleships fired their main guns at incoming aircraft, but more in hope than expectation - their best chance was that a torpedo bomber would be caught in the splash of a 16" shell hitting the water. Their main flak weapons were smaller guns, down to calibres that contemporary aircraft used (20mm, .50 cal). The real problem is more that M6s and above cannot mount fighter weapons in the AAA role.

EDIT: Correction re M1s. They are fleet carriers, so their primary weapon system is their M3 wing. They should not have access to Capital class weapons, which should be reserved for M2 battleships. M1s should still be limited to M7 guns.

Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.3d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Thu, 15. Oct 20, 23:55

dunderhead327 wrote:
Thu, 15. Oct 20, 12:03
I disagree to some extent. The Boron and Paranid M7s aren't underpowered, it's more that everyone else's are overpowered. As I said before I think that the IBL and PPC should be Capital class weapons, locked to M1/M2. They are the two biggest lasers in the game, with ROFs of 3.3 and 2.7 respectively.

Also, the Argon M1s and M7s should be able to use the FBC, as the Terrans' can. It's a lot smaller than either of the above, yet is the only laser which Argon M2s can use, but their M7s can't.

As far as I can see, there are no lasers which Split capital ships can mount, but their M7s can't, and the FBC is the only one like that for the Argons. Changing the IBL, PPC, and FBC would bring them more into line with the other races.

I would suggest that it makes sense that the anti-fighter weapons of one class are the main armament of the next smaller class, and that every ship should be able to mount all the weapons that smaller ships of its race can. After all, in WW2 battleships fired their main guns at incoming aircraft, but more in hope than expectation - their best chance was that a torpedo bomber would be caught in the splash of a 16" shell hitting the water. Their main flak weapons were smaller guns, down to calibres that contemporary aircraft used (20mm, .50 cal). The real problem is more that M6s and above cannot mount fighter weapons in the AAA role.

EDIT: Correction re M1s. They are fleet carriers, so their primary weapon system is their M3 wing. They should not have access to Capital class weapons, which should be reserved for M2 battleships. M1s should still be limited to M7 guns.
Some corrections: IBL RoF is 3 per minute and PPC RoF is 2 per minute.

M7s have that problem that they typically have turrets with 2 guns each and rely on the main guns for damage, but there's some corner cases where they have turrets only and more guns per turret. For typical M7, if they mount IBL/PPC on the main, they're going to have to turn to get the shot and even then it can miss if used against a fighter or M6. If they mount those on the turrets, then it's the same issue and even worse that they're more likely going to hit a fighter if that's the only target. In either case, that will eat up their energy sooner and then they become a flying piece of scrap. An M7 runs out of juice sooner than the M1/M2 does to balance out its ability to use M7+ guns and its low cost as a capital ship. For these reasons, M7s don't seem to be overpowered. M1s suffer from the same problem if they mount M2 guns such as PSP and PPC, and either way M1s aren't going to have enough firepower to use M2-class guns effectively.

M6+ have an M3-class weapon in terms of firepower in the form of the GRC, a weapon on par with the M3's EMPC, so bigger ships still have that option of using fighter-class weapons.

EDIT: Forgot some wording. Also added M1s.
Last edited by Betelgeuse97 on Fri, 16. Oct 20, 11:58, edited 2 times in total.

Edna
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Edna » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 09:55

I don't think M1s are really in a position where they should receive nerfs.
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Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 11:48

I have some questions with terraforming in phase 2 and 3. I noticed that a sector with 2+ planets can have the same bonuses from both. For example, a sector has 2 planets and terraforming both will give +30% and +40% research. Do benefits stack with each other?

Another question: how much does the increased repair rate do? Also, if it stacks, what will the repair rate be? (Default repair rate is 10k hull per minute.)

I also see some bonuses that can't even be used due to permanent war. It doesn't make sense that terraforming a planet will give you rep and/or favor points to a faction that you're in permanent war with. Could this be changed so that these are rerolled to something else if the game checks that you're in permanent war with that faction upon successfully terraforming that planet?

dunderhead327
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by dunderhead327 » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 11:52

Edna wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 09:55
I don't think M1s are really in a position where they should receive nerfs.
Fair comment, but should they really be able to mix it up with the big boys?
Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Thu, 15. Oct 20, 23:55
M6 have a fighter-class weapon in the form of the GRC, a weapon on par with the M3's EMPC.
GRC is not a fighter weapon. The only similarity with the EMPC is DPS. Everything else is very different. Hull damage, shield damage, power consumption, and especially size are much greater (a fully shielded Nova could only mount 2, naked it wouldn't quite manage 4 - although I have never liked having shields and guns use cargo space when they already have limits on the number of slots); price and range are somewhat higher; ROF is less than half. For a defensive weapon (e.g. rear turret) on an M6, I would much rather mount 2 EMPCs or PBEs than 1 GRC. The only reason not to is the number of slots - now if we had multi-barrel mounts... Fighter weapons would need to have their range drastically reduced for balance, but should a fighter really be engaging at 4K with guns?

limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 12:40

Greetings, found a little bug. Terraforming planet with +max population doesn't work.
It shows in station manager, but outpost doesn't get new people :(

Image Image Image

Favorgalaxy
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Favorgalaxy » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 15:47

limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 12:40
Greetings, found a little bug. Terraforming planet with +max population doesn't work.
It shows in station manager, but outpost doesn't get new people :(

Image Image Image

google translate: this is not a bug, go to the page on the screen, hover over max people and at the bottom you can choose the number above, does not automatically add
Spoiler
Show
Image
if the image is not fixed, then the link https://ibb.co/mvJ1Kcr
Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 11:48
I have some questions with terraforming in phase 2 and 3. I noticed that a sector with 2+ planets can have the same bonuses from both. For example, a sector has 2 planets and terraforming both will give +30% and +40% research. Do benefits stack with each other?

Another question: how much does the increased repair rate do? Also, if it stacks, what will the repair rate be? (Default repair rate is 10k hull per minute.)

I also see some bonuses that can't even be used due to permanent war. It doesn't make sense that terraforming a planet will give you rep and/or favor points to a faction that you're in permanent war with. Could this be changed so that these are rerolled to something else if the game checks that you're in permanent war with that faction upon successfully terraforming that planet?
by the way, I terraformed about 3 planets in one system for the number of people +30 eventually became +90, so all bonuses add up, as well as for research, but for people you need to go and increase the number on the tab every time

repair rate is given 1planet +5k, 2planet +10k

Edna
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Edna » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 16:50

Oh boi. So in the past few days I gave X-Rebirth another shot because now I have a better graphics card and X-Rebirth got polished over the years and also got fun mods. Really like it now, the feeling is very immersive. Then I got hyped: If I can run X-Rebirth on highest settings, why not try X4? So I bought it together with the Split Vendetta DLC, just to find out that they use different graphical mechanics that require a lot more VRAM despite the game looking way less pretty than Rebirth (mostly because Rebirth has those very few but handcrafted systems). Now I wasted 50€ on X4 and can barely play it because the VRAM issue glitches the game out, and that's so annoying that I remembered that Joubarbe is a good boi and never let me down (except on the Upkeep/Tax Income overview suggestion, but that's okay) and as such, I will invest the entire next seven days on a new Mayhem 3 playthrough. There are planets waiting to get terraformed and Hive Queens waiting to get boarded.

Long story short, I'm happy to have Mayhem 3. :)
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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Hector0x » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 17:19

Yeah, you can give Rebirth really great Mayhem-like turf wars with the New Frontiers mod. It has real shipbuilding economy and cool flavor features like salvage ships which can actually turn wrecks into resources and also station boarding, iirc. There is another great mod to make the map interactive. If you rule out station interiors it's definitely the prettiest and most immersive X-game if you ask me.

In my opinion X4 is suited to get a good Mayhem-like mod eventually. Only if 4.0 or later patches really manage to sort fleet AI and pathing issues out, but this has at least been promised. The game already comes with the real shipbuilding economy and territory control, so a mod would "only"( :) ) need to add more war chaos and a production module limit for each sector like station support in Mayhem 3.

But X3 Mayhem has it's unique feel and i'm glad that Joubarbe put so much work into it.

limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 17:31

Spoiler
Show
Favorgalaxy wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 15:47
limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 12:40
Greetings, found a little bug. Terraforming planet with +max population doesn't work.
It shows in station manager, but outpost doesn't get new people :(

Image Image Image

google translate: this is not a bug, go to the page on the screen, hover over max people and at the bottom you can choose the number above, does not automatically add
Spoiler
Show
Image
if the image is not fixed, then the link https://ibb.co/mvJ1Kcr
Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 11:48
I have some questions with terraforming in phase 2 and 3. I noticed that a sector with 2+ planets can have the same bonuses from both. For example, a sector has 2 planets and terraforming both will give +30% and +40% research. Do benefits stack with each other?

Another question: how much does the increased repair rate do? Also, if it stacks, what will the repair rate be? (Default repair rate is 10k hull per minute.)

I also see some bonuses that can't even be used due to permanent war. It doesn't make sense that terraforming a planet will give you rep and/or favor points to a faction that you're in permanent war with. Could this be changed so that these are rerolled to something else if the game checks that you're in permanent war with that faction upon successfully terraforming that planet?
by the way, I terraformed about 3 planets in one system for the number of people +30 eventually became +90, so all bonuses add up, as well as for research, but for people you need to go and increase the number on the tab every time

repair rate is given 1planet +5k, 2planet +10k
WOW. Didn't see that function. Really works. All is ok. TY!!!

limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:30

Like this interesting balance.

2 Cyclops(M2) and 30 Appallox(m6) - was not able to defeat OCV invasion(37% signals). When M2 OCV spawned - almost all where dead.

6 Terns(m6 fighter carrier) and 150 M3 Cougars: easy def and conquer many sectors....poor argons

Image

P.S. Love my Zerg Fleet :lol:

P.S. Lags and freeze like hell when in sector with all of them

Edna
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Edna » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:44

limurchick wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 20:30
Like this interesting balance.

2 Cyclops(M2) and 30 Appallox(m6) - was not able to defeat OCV invasion(37% signals). When M2 OCV spawned - almost all where dead.

6 Terns(m6 fighter carrier) and 150 M3 Cougars: easy def and conquer many sectors....poor argons

Image

P.S. Love my Zerg Fleet :lol:

P.S. Lags and freeze like hell when in sector with all of them
Corvettes are absolutely useless against OCV. A swarm of 200 M5s can destroy any OCV destroyer, though. The idea is to provide so many fast targets that the OCV can not keep up destroying them all in time. You can combine it with artillery frigates and dreadnoughts, but the swarms will be most important.
Image

limurchick
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by limurchick » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 21:00

BTW found one interesting...BUG?

Kha'ak Hive Queen spawned in sector and simple flying there with no result more than 30+ hrs.(in my game Teladi can't kill her due to isolated sector and no ships)

Maybe better to add something like "despawn time" for her/him?

Image Image Image


Update. Just spawned one more Queen in another sector. Kha'aks are not monarchy? Multi queens government :)

Image

Betelgeuse97
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 3.4d

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Fri, 16. Oct 20, 23:00

Edna wrote:
Fri, 16. Oct 20, 16:50
There are planets waiting to get terraformed and Hive Queens waiting to get boarded.

Long story short, I'm happy to have Mayhem 3. :)
I didn't know you could board and take hive queens (I've killed 4 already). Are you able to take control of them?

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