Trump

[Vertigo 7]

Other republicans would probably do the job without getting into a fight every second day, occasionally telling the truth, without selling out to the Russians, keeping friends and allies as, well, friends and allies, and without taking a giant dump on your constitution. If Trump goes, you get another Republican president without all the drama. What's not to love about that idea? Why are you so invested in Trump, and only Trump?

My only working theory is something I pointed out a while back. Trumpanzies are scared shitless of becoming a minority race in the US. "Make America Great Again" was/is widely interpreted by many as "Keep America White" which is reinforced by Trump's attacks on non-white immigrants and countries as well as his attacks on cities in the US that are largely dominated by African-Americans. Throw in an endorsement from David Duke, Steve King, and other white supremacists, as well as make "fake news" your go to defense when anything comes to light that would cast doubt on your legitimacy, and you've got someone to make you feel less self-conscious about your own racial bias. I can see how racist people would want someone like Trump to make them feel better about their own lack of humanity.

[Masterbagger]

My only working theory is something I pointed out a while back. Trumpanzies are scared shitless of becoming a minority race in the US. "Make America Great Again" was/is widely interpreted by many as "Keep America White" which is reinforced by Trump's attacks on non-white immigrants and countries as well as his attacks on cities in the US that are largely dominated by African-Americans. Throw in an endorsement from David Duke, Steve King, and other white supremacists, as well as make "fake news" your go to defense when anything comes to light that would cast doubt on your legitimacy, and you've got someone to make you feel less self-conscious about your own racial bias. I can see how racist people would want someone like Trump to make them feel better about their own lack of humanity.

If you didn't like racism you wouldn't keep it alive to use as a weapon. Bringing out that race card is just a deliberate attempt to stamp on dissent. It doesn't persuade anyone or make you any more right. Neither do your insults. This hateful bias of yours is preventing you from seeing Trump as others might. You are deliberately refusing to know what you are up against in the next election.

[Olterin]

@Masterbagger the question was asked - why was Trump voted in over any other Republican? Why is there no better Republican candidate than him? What makes him better than all the other Republicans for Presidential office? As I've said before, I get why people would vote for a Republican candidate - but why does it have to be Trump specifically? Why does he keep having the support of the party if he's such a mess - and as far as points of policy go, I believe the GOP wasn't too happy about him dropping allies (the Kurds) like a hot potato, for example (that does qualify as foreign policy does it not)?

I'd really like to read a detailed response because all this has yet to become clear to me. :-/ (Assuming, of course, than approximately 23% of all US citizen aren't racist bigots who'd love nothing more than be white and rich in a country where they can do pretty much whatever their money lets them, *ahem*)

[Alan Phipps]

Again, talk impersonally about the subject matter and related policies and not the other posters here. Please also try not to be insulting and inciteful to those who disagree with your opinions - and continued use of 'Trumpanzies' and 'the Orange one' is deliberately insulting and inciteful to my mind while they add nothing of value to the subject discussion. If you mean Trump supporters and Trump then generally please use those terms.

[Vertigo 7]

Again, talk impersonally about the subject matter and related policies and not the other posters here.

I hope you're not directing this at me. I already told CBJ I wouldn't engage in further diatribe with certain individuals and I have not done so and will not.

< Does everything said have to be about you? There are other posters too. Alan Phipps>

Please also try not to be insulting and inciteful to those who disagree with your opinions - and continued use of 'Trumpanzies' and 'the Orange one' is deliberately insulting and inciteful to my mind while they add nothing of value to the subject discussion. If you mean Trump supporters and Trump then generally please use those terms.

I'll do my best, but I've gotta admit, it'll be difficult to do considering Trump has permanently dyed his skin orange, something that he has blamed on LED light bulbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_iFi1qH8Cg

[Vertigo 7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixLKVjYajMQ

C-SPAN 2nd public judicial hearing to begin streaming at the top of the hour.

[Tycow]

Gordon Bennett, watching/listening to the Republicans on the panel is embarrassing.

[Vertigo 7]

Gordon Bennett, watching/listening to the Republicans on the panel is embarrassing.

Lol I had to look that up. You Brits and your weirdo descriptions very apt, though

[Vertigo 7]

Surprise, surprise... typical *ahem* Trump supporter/Info Wars conspiracy nut attempted to interrupt the hearing in it's opening. I had a feeling this wasn't a random person.

https://www.businessinsider.com/protest ... eo-2019-12

[Tycow]

Gordon Bennett, watching/listening to the Republicans on the panel is embarrassing.

Lol I had to look that up. You Brits and your weirdo descriptions very apt, though

We're full of them.

Surprise, surprise... typical *ahem* Trump supporter/Info Wars conspiracy nut attempted to interrupt the hearing in it's opening. I had a feeling this wasn't a random person.

https://www.businessinsider.com/protest ... eo-2019-12

/facepalm

Aw, and now moaning about the upsetting language used by the Democratic counsel. My heart bleeds for their collective ego.

[Vertigo 7]

For people whining about how much the impeachment is a waste of time, the Republicans sure do love wasting time by forcing votes on pointless crap.

[Vertigo 7]

I'm glad I don't have to have a committee vote before I can go pee.

[Tycow]

I'm glad I don't have to have a committee vote before I can go pee.

Same!

[Vertigo 7]

I'm kind of surprised that Nadler doesn't eject the republicans that continue to speak out of turn and disrupt the proceedings. There has to be some provision to hold people in contempt.

[Observe]

Far too much fake outrage on both sides. Part of the problem, is that there is no clear definition for what is an impeachable offense. Some see Trump's actions as impeachable, others see them as politics as usual and unworthy of a second thought; let alone impeachment. Each side is sticking to their respective fictional narrative. Putting aside partisan agendas, the case should be obvious, but how many politicians and spectators are able to put politics aside? Some go by the creed that all things are fair in love and war. Others beat the drum of ethics, but the sound of that drum, often depends on which narrative one is prone to.

We are all stuck in a story not of our own making.

[Vertigo 7]

Far too much fake outrage on both sides. Part of the problem, is that there is no clear definition for what is an impeachable offense. Some see Trump's actions as impeachable, others see them as politics as usual and unworthy of a second thought; let alone impeachment. Each side is sticking to their respective fictional narrative. Putting aside partisan agendas, the case should be obvious, but how many politicians and spectators are able to put politics aside? Some go by the creed that all things are fair in love and war. Others beat the drum of ethics, but the sound of that drum, often depends on which narrative one is prone to.

We are all stuck in a story not of our own making.

I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.

[Observe]

I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.

Right, but is any of that impeachable? Seeking dirt on an opponent is as old as the hills. Seeking such information from a foreign government is different than a foreign government deliberately trying to influence an election of their own accord for their own reasons. Some say what Trump did, is worse than Watergate. Others say it is just water under the bridge of no particular concern. Who is right?

Certainly, those who hate Trump, will latch onto this as their stairway to heaven. Those who love Trump, will explain it all away as a pathetic attempt by Democrats to overturn a duly elected President. Much of the rhetoric is dogs barking at the moon.

We will see. Personally, I doubt Trump will be impeached by the Senate, but this will harm his chances in the next election. Eventually, the Democrats will occupy the White House and I expect their vengeance will be without mercy. Hopefully, we will get a President who understands the challenges our society will have as we confront the future where more and more people become less and less relevant.

[Vertigo 7]

I think, though, knowing the kind of person Trump is, it's fair to question his motives when there's no clear justification or legal standing for his actions. Throw in what Rudy Colludy is doing and what others have testified to, it becomes pretty clear that Trump was just being Trump and trying to game the system for his own purposes. And that's really the thing. Trump trying to extort a foreign country for his own ends is completely within his character. Trump showing concern for corruption is laughable at best.

Right, but is any of that impeachable? Seeking dirt on an opponent is as old as the hills. Seeking such information from a foreign government is different than a foreign government deliberately trying to influence an election of their own accord for their own reasons. Some say what Trump did, is worse than Watergate. Others say it is just water under the bridge of no particular concern. Who is right?

Certainly, those who hate Trump, will latch onto this as their stairway to heaven. Those who love Trump, will explain it all away as a pathetic attempt by Democrats to overturn a duly elected President. Much of the rhetoric is dogs barking at the moon.

We will see. Personally, I doubt Trump will be impeached by the Senate, but this will harm his chances in the next election. Eventually, the Democrats will occupy the White House and I expect their vengeance will be without mercy. Hopefully, we will get a President who understands the challenges our society will have as we confront the future where more and more people become less and less relevant.

The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?

[Observe]

The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?

Putin sees the world as a chessboard, while many others see it as a game of tic-tac-toe. We can't make ourselves a pawn of Russia, because we don't know how to play chess. As for the obstruction charge, Trump did many things to influence investigations into him and his aides, but legal scholars are in disagreement over whether what he did falls under the definition of obstruction.

It seems that Trump has spent much of his life dancing around the legal jungle. It might be said that he has a natural skill for flipping the middle finger at a system that is full of holes waiting to be exploited when convenient.

For sure he is on slippery ground, but whether or not he crossed that wide grey area of legal, impeachable lines is uncertain. The answers are not unanimous and I doubt they will become so. This will fizzle out.

[Vertigo 7]

The thing is, to me, at least, it doesn't matter who the president is. Trump, Obama, Bush, any of them... if they make themselves a pawn of Russia, if they corrupt and/or invite corruption into our elections, burn em all at the steak whoever it may be. Whether or not Trump was a detestable bastard before any of this is irrelevant other than to show his character. As if that in of itself wasn't enough, obstructing congress, violating impoundment and control, and the subsequent cover up, why should he get a pass?

Putin sees the world as a chessboard, while many others see it as a game of tic-tac-toe. We can't make ourselves a pawn of Russia, because we don't know how to play chess. As for the obstruction charge, Trump did many things to influence investigations into him and his aides, but legal scholars are in disagreement over whether what he did falls under the definition of obstruction.

It seems that Trump has spent much of his life dancing around the legal jungle. It might be said that he has a natural skill for flipping the middle finger at a system that is full of holes waiting to be exploited when convenient.

For sure he is on slippery ground, but whether or not he crossed that wide grey area of legal, impeachable lines is uncertain. The answers are not unanimous and I doubt they will become so. This will fizzle out.

It's not just the influencing of investigations that amounts to obstruction, the blatant refusal to comply with subpoenas is grounds enough.

That also doesn't address his violation of impoundment and control, which is directly tied to Article 1, section 9, clause 7 of the constitution. The whole purpose of impoundment and control was to prevent a president from doing shady things with appropriated funds and hiding it from congress.

I doubt this will fizzle out anytime soon. If we're lucky, it'll be after the next election. I've said before, dems have shot themselves in the foot on a few things, and even today with the revelation of the tying of phone numbers back to reporters and members of congress that were published, I'll side with the republicans on that. But the charges against Trump have merit, either way.