Trump

[Vertigo 7]

I think the thing that confuses me about the "I'm just looking out for myself" pro-Trump argument is that it's manifestly not true. One might naively separate left and right wing supporters broadly into the following two categories:
a) I will accept some impact to my personal prosperity in order to make things better for the less fortunate; this is the fairest approach.
b) Policies which allow me to make the most use of what I have are the fairest.

I don't agree with position b), but I think it's a defensible and intellectually consistent position, and I think it's useful to have some people who will argue that position in society, for reasons I'll come onto presently. Trump and his ilk, however, represent a third position:
c) I will accept some impact to my personal prosperity in order to make things worse for people who are not like me.


Snip for space.

I'll pick on the two policies you mentioned.

Starting with healthcare, and I'll broaden that to insurance as a whole - including home owner's and auto insurance.

Insurance is a freaking joke. I get health insurance from my company through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I pay roughly $40 every 2 weeks for my medical coverage and I have no idea what my employer pays but I know it's significant. So you think, hey, 40 bucks for insurance, that's great! Okay, well... when I go in for my annual physical I owe 20 bucks just to walk in the door, then for the blood tests I get hit with another $160. And then, my prescriptions I'm paying ~$45/mo. BC/BS is making thousands/year for my insurance, I would guess somewhere close to 10k if not more. That's just me. Now, my deductible before they'll 100% cover me is $5000. In addition to all the bi weekly payments that I and my employer make, I have to spend another $5000 out of my own pocket before they'll fully cover me. So yeah, if I get hit by a car I'm pretty well screwed. I'll have to rely on handouts to cover my medical costs or dip into my retirement savings.

Same goes for auto insurance. I've been with my insurance company since I was 17. I've payed them thousands upon thousands but I still have to meet a deductible before I can file a claim, and if I were to file a claim, my insurance cost goes up. Home owners insurance is the same as well.

All of the insurance deductibles reset annually. No matter how much I've spent in previous years, it starts over Jan 1.

If I were to make sure I had a deductible savings for all of my insurance plans, I would need roughly $20,000 cash just set aside for a worst case scenario. That's not realistic for the average American citizen to set aside that much cash. I live in an area that's prone for tornadoes so it's not outside the realm of possibility that I am presented with a scenario where I'll endure a simultaneous home/auto/personal injury.

It's an incredible financial burden that only goes up every year that goes by. The insurance companies, also, fight you every step of the way to cover a claim. They deliberately look for ways to get out of paying up on it and do as much as they can to shift the financial costs to the policy holder. It's greed, pure and simple.

So yeah, it needs to be checked. It's absolutely insane the amount of money that has to be coughed up for non-elective procedures. Insurance needs to be regulated, the companies that are making substantial profits off prescription drugs need to be scrutinized. The whole thing needs to be flipped upside down and changed to give people a basic quality of life.

And then immigration... oh dear god. My favorite argument I hear from republicans that has been immortalized by South Park, "Dey tuk err jerbs!". I love this one... I personally don't know anyone where they were displaced by an immigrant. But I have to wonder, how ****** do you have to be at your job to loose it to an individual that has no work experience in the US, likely doesn't speak English, though not always, and may not have any formal education? Is that the immigrant's fault these "people" lost their jobs to an immigrant?

And then the whole idea that the "big beautiful wall" is going to stop the flow of criminals and/or drugs from crossing into the country. I guess we need to put up a wall around Florida's coast too. What a monumental waste of money this wall will be. But people fleeing corrupt nations and the cartels... oh no, they must be stopped at all costs!

The lack of human compassion is beyond repugnant. Not to mention, the lack of foresight as to what injecting more people into the nation's labor force would do to boost production and economic gains. But oh no, our country that was founded by people escaping a tyrant and desiring freedom for themselves and future generations, we can't allow anyone else that wants the same things in! The horror!

[Observe]

I want to go do work and keep more of the wage that I earn. My best choice is not a dem promising free stuff to everyone on the planet...

No one including Democrats want to take your money.

Unless you are ultra wealthy, chances are you deserve MORE than you are currently getting. You should receive a slice of every Facebook and Google advertisement that uses YOUR data. Data is the new oil economy and your personal information is being mined to profit big data companies. If someone comes along and takes a pound of your flesh, shouldn't they have to pay you for it?

Amazon and other companies are leading the charge to close the local shopping malls where either you or your relatives used to work. Coal mining jobs will never come back. More and more jobs are being displaced by automation. Amazon pays no taxes so you are the one carrying the tax burden.

Wouldn't you rather that Amazon pays at least as much taxes as you do? Or would you rather the burden fall solely on you? The idea that all you need to do is work hard to afford your existence is no longer valid and it is becoming less so each year.

Keep your money and also accept what is due you by those who are using you. Is that so hard to grasp? If you are all about you, then why not support a trickle-up economy that puts you at the front of the food chain?

You lambast Socialism, yet you don't mind subsidizing people and companies who treat you like a side of beef to be auctioned off to the highest bidder.

[red assassin]

Insurance is a freaking joke. I get health insurance from my company through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I pay roughly $40 every 2 weeks for my medical coverage and I have no idea what my employer pays but I know it's significant. So you think, hey, 40 bucks for insurance, that's great! Okay, well... when I go in for my annual physical I owe 20 bucks just to walk in the door, then for the blood tests I get hit with another $160. And then, my prescriptions I'm paying ~$45/mo. BC/BS is making thousands/year for my insurance, I would guess somewhere close to 10k if not more. That's just me. Now, my deductible before they'll 100% cover me is $5000. In addition to all the bi weekly payments that I and my employer make, I have to spend another $5000 out of my own pocket before they'll fully cover me. So yeah, if I get hit by a car I'm pretty well screwed. I'll have to rely on handouts to cover my medical costs or dip into my retirement savings.

Yes, and the US per capita spend on healthcare (i.e. combining personal, employer and government spending) is over $10k. By contrast, the UK spends a little over $4k. It's a little difficult to get an exact figure for how much I personally spend on healthcare here because I don't have an exact figure for my overall tax bill (I don't know exactly how much I've paid in sales tax, fuel duty, etc), but the UK government spends a little under 20% of its total budget on healthcare. That comes to about £2.3k per person per year. I earn over double the UK median household income and with some reasonable estimates of my sales tax bill etc my personal contribution to the NHS budget still only amounts to about £4.5k, and other than a £9 charge for collecting prescriptions, that's all I'll pay for healthcare, up to and including, say, the multiple brain surgeries my dad had a couple of years ago (he's fine!).

[RegisterMe]

One extremely good post

The thing that you didn't mention, and that never fails to surprise me, is that even those "c" people out there seem to delight in ignoring the open corruption and downright criminality of the Trump administration (I nearly type "regime" there). I find this particularly galling when they also claim to be "constitutionalists" - Trump and his administration having demonstrated more contempt for the Constitution than anybody else in history.

EDIT: To give him his due, whilst we're on the subject of healthcare, Trump actually seems to be taking on the hospitals, which consume more US private and public spending on healthcare than do drug prescriptions.

[Vertigo 7]

Insurance is a freaking joke. I get health insurance from my company through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I pay roughly $40 every 2 weeks for my medical coverage and I have no idea what my employer pays but I know it's significant. So you think, hey, 40 bucks for insurance, that's great! Okay, well... when I go in for my annual physical I owe 20 bucks just to walk in the door, then for the blood tests I get hit with another $160. And then, my prescriptions I'm paying ~$45/mo. BC/BS is making thousands/year for my insurance, I would guess somewhere close to 10k if not more. That's just me. Now, my deductible before they'll 100% cover me is $5000. In addition to all the bi weekly payments that I and my employer make, I have to spend another $5000 out of my own pocket before they'll fully cover me. So yeah, if I get hit by a car I'm pretty well screwed. I'll have to rely on handouts to cover my medical costs or dip into my retirement savings.

Yes, and the US per capita spend on healthcare (i.e. combining personal, employer and government spending) is over $10k. By contrast, the UK spends a little over $4k. It's a little difficult to get an exact figure for how much I personally spend on healthcare here because I don't have an exact figure for my overall tax bill (I don't know exactly how much I've paid in sales tax, fuel duty, etc), but the UK government spends a little under 20% of its total budget on healthcare. That comes to about £2.3k per person per year. I earn over double the UK median household income and with some reasonable estimates of my sales tax bill etc my personal contribution to the NHS budget still only amounts to about £4.5k, and other than a £9 charge for collecting prescriptions, that's all I'll pay for healthcare, up to and including, say, the multiple brain surgeries my dad had a couple of years ago (he's fine!).

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with how UK taxes are levied. In the US, we get taxed on our income. Federal Gubment takes a slice that goes to medicare/medicade, social security, and then to the general fund. Not all states have an income tax, but the ones that do usually spread out their slice for whatever they feel like but they don't operate any state level health care. Fuel taxes generally go towards infrastructure, at least highway maintenance and the like. Sales tax both fed and state are general coffers, typically. And, lastly, property tax goes towards county services like public libraries, emergency services (fire and county police), and other county government run things. Cities mostly collect their taxes from what has been paid to the state to cover their services, usually. Some tack on an "occupational tax" to income, but that's not too common.

Honestly, it seems that the UK's and Canada's health plans have been largely successful. I'm sure they have their weak points but by in large, it seems that it's a far superior solution than to the corporate driven model here in the US.

*Edit
Just to add too, several states, especially the deep red ones, have to get subsidized from the federal government to remain functional. IE their spending exceeds their revenue collection. That's something republicans tend to ignore. They harass individuals that get government subsidies, but ignore the very fact that their own states have to operate on federal subsidies due to their inability to adequately produce goods and services to generate tax revenue, but they want to keep immigrants out that could help with that.

[red assassin]

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with how UK taxes are levied. In the US, we get taxed on our income. Federal Gubment takes a slice that goes to medicare/medicade, social security, and then to the general fund. Not all states have an income tax, but the ones that do usually spread out their slice for whatever they feel like but they don't operate any state level health care. Fuel taxes generally go towards infrastructure, at least highway maintenance and the like. Sales tax both fed and state are general coffers, typically. And, lastly, property tax goes towards county services like public libraries, emergency services (fire and county police), and other county government run things. Cities mostly collect their taxes from what has been paid to the state to cover their services, usually. Some tack on an "occupational tax" to income, but that's not too common.

In the UK I pay the following to the national government:
* Income tax and national insurance (which is functionally just income tax with different rates, for boring historical reasons) are deducted from my income at an income-dependent rate.
* Various forms of sales tax - the rate depends on what I'm buying. The "standard" VAT rate for goods and services is 20%, but most foods don't get taxed, there's significant additional fuel duty on petrol, etc etc. (This is the main reason I don't know exactly how much tax I've paid.)
* Vehicle tax on my car.
* Capital gains tax and savings interest tax, in theory, although in practice I'm not actually in a position to pay any of these.

To the local government, I pay:
* Council tax, which is a tax based on the value of my house.

Various things get tax relief offset against income tax, in particular:
* Pension contributions.
* Charitable donations.

This is all reasonably complicated in theory, but in practice most people don't actually have to think about any of this - income tax is automatically deducted at the correct rates from your paycheck, posted prices in stores include relevant taxes, etc etc. You only actually need to do tax calculations yourself if your tax situation is more complicated than the standard, e.g. you have a lot of income from investments or you're self-employed.

Certain taxes are theoretically "for" certain purposes, but in practice that's not how the government budget accounting actually works, so I'm not going to bother attempting to explain that. (Even paying certain taxes to the local rather than national government is less meaningful than it first appears, because local authorities also get some of their income from the national government, and what exactly falls into the responsibility of national vs local government is complicated.)

Ignoring sales tax, my overall tax rate is roughly 30% of my income, again, noting that I earn well over the median and that this is affected by how expensive my house and car are and my rate of pension contributions and charitable giving. A single person on the median household income pays about 20% in income taxes.

[Vertigo 7]

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with how UK taxes are levied. In the US, we get taxed on our income. Federal Gubment takes a slice that goes to medicare/medicade, social security, and then to the general fund. Not all states have an income tax, but the ones that do usually spread out their slice for whatever they feel like but they don't operate any state level health care. Fuel taxes generally go towards infrastructure, at least highway maintenance and the like. Sales tax both fed and state are general coffers, typically. And, lastly, property tax goes towards county services like public libraries, emergency services (fire and county police), and other county government run things. Cities mostly collect their taxes from what has been paid to the state to cover their services, usually. Some tack on an "occupational tax" to income, but that's not too common.

In the UK I pay the following to the national government:
* Income tax and national insurance (which is functionally just income tax with different rates, for boring historical reasons) are deducted from my income at an income-dependent rate.
* Various forms of sales tax - the rate depends on what I'm buying. The "standard" VAT rate for goods and services is 20%, but most foods don't get taxed, there's significant additional fuel duty on petrol, etc etc. (This is the main reason I don't know exactly how much tax I've paid.)
* Vehicle tax on my car.
* Capital gains tax and savings interest tax, in theory, although in practice I'm not actually in a position to pay any of these.

To the local government, I pay:
* Council tax, which is a tax based on the value of my house.

Various things get tax relief offset against income tax, in particular:
* Pension contributions.
* Charitable donations.

This is all reasonably complicated in theory, but in practice most people don't actually have to think about any of this - income tax is automatically deducted at the correct rates from your paycheck, posted prices in stores include relevant taxes, etc etc. You only actually need to do tax calculations yourself if your tax situation is more complicated than the standard, e.g. you have a lot of income from investments or you're self-employed.

Certain taxes are theoretically "for" certain purposes, but in practice that's not how the government budget accounting actually works, so I'm not going to bother attempting to explain that. (Even paying certain taxes to the local rather than national government is less meaningful than it first appears, because local authorities also get some of their income from the national government, and what exactly falls into the responsibility of national vs local government is complicated.)

Ignoring sales tax, my overall tax rate is roughly 30% of my income, again, noting that I earn well over the median and that this is affected by how expensive my house and car are and my rate of pension contributions and charitable giving. A single person on the median household income pays about 20% in income taxes.

It sounds a lot like tax here without the tacked on state income, though at an admittedly better rate. My current tax bracket puts me at 22% to the feds and 5% to the state. I'm well above the state median income and slightly above the national median, not that it really changes much. The only difference between us is I get to claim to reduce my tax liability is the interest payments on my mortgage and student loans, but its not enough to push me into a lower tax bracket. We have to file income taxes with the IRS annually, some have to quarterly if they're doing a lot of investing and what not. I could, theoretically, calculate out to the penny what I will owe for taxes and have that specific dollar amount withheld instead of the estimations, but most people just do the estimated withholding and figure it out when they file their taxes. The feds are good at getting refunds issued fairly quickly. My state, though, sucks at it. Often they wait until the last possible moment to issue refunds... sometime in August. After that, they owe interest on refunds as well.

The state, though, loves to try to come after me for whatever federal tax refund I got for the previous year. I still don't understand how that's legal because I'm pretty sure that money had already been taxed. I'm not overly fond of this dual income tax system here. 7 states have no income tax, but they recoup that through sales tax and the like. Property taxes are higher as well. But, even that is a bit simpler imo and is most likely a net wash.

Trumpypoo wants to make income tax fit on a post card. I wish him luck but I don't see that happening without making significant reductions in tax law. And if he is even able to pull it off, it'll end up being some thinly veiled attempt to further reduce his own tax liabilities.

[RegisterMe]

Most, if not all (I'm not sure) states would be bankrupt were they operating under the same tax and financial rules / laws as corporations.

Just google "US state pension deficits" and do some reading .

[Vertigo 7]

Sadly, pensions are becoming a thing of the past. I think, in part, because of what these state pensions show, they end up costing more in the long run. I've noticed a concerted effort by financial institutions over the last 15 years to push for IRAs. Businesses have stopped offering pension plans in favor of 401k or 403b retirement plans where they match a certain % of the contributions you make instead of giving you money for the rest of your life.

It's a logical choice. I mean, take the US military for example. I understand they have a new retirement plan, but while I was active, they had what's called the "High 3" plan where they took the number of years you served, multiplied by the average of your highest 3 years of base pay (typically would be your last 3 unless you did a dumb) times 2.5%. You could retire at 20 years, or max it out at 30. Either way, do the math on that... enlist at 18 years old, retire at 38 or 48 years old, and get a damn good salary for the rest of your life. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the military service members that put in that amount of time don't deserve that, I'm just saying we're talking millions paid out over the remainder of these folk's life times thousands of individuals, if not more. It's not sustainable.

So instead of pension plans, businesses and even the military are shifting towards pushing individuals to plan for their own retirements instead which is far more sustainable in the long term.

This is something that I think needs to be pushed in the education system. Financial health isn't really focused on but it's just as important as the basics of math and science and the like. It could certainly go a long way towards helping individuals understand how to manage their own money and plan ahead.

[red assassin]

We have the same issue with pensions in the UK, with the same remedy. The problem is that a) people are living longer and b) the population has stopped growing, so the net result is far more older people to support for longer from the same working population. Ironically, one of the remedies for this is to increase immigration; since immigrants tend to be younger and working, you're increasing the income base to support the expensive, ageing native population.

[Vertigo 7]

We have the same issue with pensions in the UK, with the same remedy. The problem is that a) people are living longer and b) the population has stopped growing, so the net result is far more older people to support for longer from the same working population. Ironically, one of the remedies for this is to increase immigration; since immigrants tend to be younger and working, you're increasing the income base to support the expensive, ageing native population.

Oh 100% for sure. I'm hoping that when I retire, I won't have a mortgage payment, no car payment... no responsibilities beyond taxes and utilities. I'm young enough that it's a very attainable goal so long as my employment remains steady. I'm *trying* to plan out to live to 100, just to err on the side of caution.

Of course, Trump wants to go after IRAs to collect taxes on them before they're paid into and to cripple the amount of contributions that can be made. Currently, 401k and 403b payroll deductions are made pre tax and withdrawals from those plans are taxed at that time, so it's not like the government isn't going to get their cut at some point. Even if I die, my retirement savings go to my beneficiaries and the estate pays the taxes on the IRA. Just more silly shit to keep people on the bottom rung of society.

[RegisterMe]

White House - "This impeachment process is unfair, they won't let us take part".
Congress - "Please participate".
White House "lol no".

[Grim Lock]

Haha that's pretty funny, true and sad, but still funny.

Awesome how Trumpians are unable (as also seen in this thread) to straight up debunk anything, instead they just moan and play the victim while not participating in the process that if they where able to would clear the charges.

[Vertigo 7]

Well you can't debunk facts. Trump operates by repeating lies often and loudly which has the impact of either convincing people that it is true or numbing them to listening at all. And somehow he's convinced house republicans to be his echo chamber. Their entire playbook is built around the general public's lack of knowledge and understanding of house rules and legal proceedings and their unwillingness to verify what Trump claims. Trumpanzies have been duped. There's no 2 ways about it... they're idiots. Trump and his base deserve each other, truly. It's just sad that the rest of us have to suffer for it.

[Grim Lock]

It never ceases to amaze me how the reps stay behind the orange pile of shit, for pretty much everything they say now, you can dig up a video of them saying the exact opposite, zero integrity and backbone, but then again what can one expect from these elderly wrinkly old farts who should be enjoying retirement instead of desperately clinging to their positions ****** up the world they won't be spending to much more time in.

Again, the US needs to implement term limits on WAY more political positions. (funny enough that WAS one of Trumps campaign promises and one of the few i could get behind, sadly like so many of his promises nothing will come of it)

[Vertigo 7]

So here's the thing... I see this out of well, every presidential candidate. When a candidate says "I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that" where anything they're saying has to A) have legislation passed through congress, or B) requires the UN to agree to it, I don't believe it for a damn second. Neither of those 2 bodies answers to the president, whoever that is. Case in point, Trump couldn't get his stupid wall funded when republicans held both chambers of the house. It was only through his abuse of the national emergency declaration that he was able to re-appropriate money from the DOD to do it.

People are under this misguided perception that being President means you're in charge. Well, their authority starts and ends at the executive branch. The President can propose a bill to congress, but congress has to ratify it through the House and Senate before the President can sign it into law. So if congress thinks it's a dumb idea, it's not gonna go anywhere. Presidents do have authority to issue executive orders, but those orders are not law, and are often easily challenged in the courts when those orders encroach on the duties of the legislative or judicial branch or are flat out illegal orders. For example, while the president does have executive authority over the military, he/she cannot order a full scale invasion and deployment. That would require a declaration of war and only congress can do so. But they can order in peace keeping/security forces or conduct joint operations with the UN and NATO.

The legislative, executive, and judicial branches of the US government were setup as coequal branches. Trump, in his "great and unmatched wisdom" is attempting to strip congress of their constitutional power and push the executive branch above them all. I hope congress stops him, that's all I can say.

[felter]

Do you think that Trump actually believes that if he ignores or shouts and curses at the impeachment, that it will all go away and that he will not be held accountable.

When you look at all the bad things he has done in his life time and there are a lot of them, he has never ever really been held accountable for anything he has done, he has never admitted to any of the bad things he has done, or even apologised for any of the pain, aguish and hurt he has caused to numerous people. He has always made out he did nothing wrong, even though everyone knows he has and how he has done wrong, including the courts, He always kind of got away with it by paying with other peoples money.

[pjknibbs]

Do you think that Trump actually believes that if he ignores or shouts and curses at the impeachment, that it will all go away and that he will not be held accountable.

At this stage you could tell me Trump believes in unicorns, wizards and the Tooth Fairy and it wouldn't be any less likely than some of the stuff he *does* actually appear to believe in.

[Vertigo 7]

Well I don't think Trump believes in anything other than his ability to lie and deflect to avoid responsibility and his own inflated sense of importance. He definitely doesn't care about anything or anyone other than himself. It boggles the mind to think there are a few million people that actually believe he's looking out for their best interests. I honestly don't get how that's possible, but then again, I'm not a gullible person and I'm also not the kind of person that would even attempt to deceive a nation for my own gains; I can't put myself in either mindset to understand what happened.

[RegisterMe]

Well, maybe you can relax. For a bit anyway. He's over here. Whoopee?