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Vertigo 7
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 9. Oct 19, 17:00

felter wrote:
Wed, 9. Oct 19, 16:26
BugMeister wrote:
Wed, 9. Oct 19, 15:52
Rudy Colludy should share a cell with Paul Manafort - will he get the top bunk..?? :lol:
The top bunk, do you think he would actually be able to get up onto the top bunk.
They could always share the bed and Rudy could pretend Manafort is his cousin/ex-wife.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 02:35

So Trump claims 25% support his impeachment. He either made that number up or he asked Melania, Eric, Don, and Ivanka if they wanted him impeached.
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 03:24

25% sounds about right as far as I have read, but that is for how many think an impeachment should be happening, meanwhile there is also roughly a 30% count on those that think an inquiry should be happening, put the two together and you get 55% in favor of an impeachment moving forward. So he got roughly part of it right, he just forgot to add on the other part. And by the by that is a minimum %, also a minimum is the count of 1 in 5 Republicans in favour of impeachment. Not looking good for him at all.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 04:34

I'm not seeing the same things. every news agency, including fox, are reporting polls showing now 51% in favor of impeachment and removal, closer to 60% just on the inquiry.
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Re: Trump

Post by Masterbagger » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:13

red assassin wrote:
Wed, 9. Oct 19, 12:09
I think it's utterly fascinating that some people continue to argue with a straight face that there's anything irregular about the inquiry, that the whistleblower lacks credibility, is partisan, or isn't a first-hand witness, etc. The partial call record that the White House released alone is arguably impeachable conduct, and at the very least is probable cause for further investigation and supports the whistleblower's allegations. Also already public are text messages like these: 'Heard from White House - assuming President Z convinces Trump he will investigate / "get to the bottom of what happened" in 2016, we will nail down date for visit to Washington.' "Are we now saying that security assistance and WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?" "I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign."
This is the text of the whistleblower complaint. You in particular need to read this.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... nclass.pdf

This is the text of the transcript.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4273988 ... from_embed

What I know in addition to this is that it began as a leak to Schiff. He knew before it went to the IG and lied about knowing. The IG has just changed it's rules to allow secondhand reporting which this is. In their own words this accuser admits they did not hear the call and that is right there in that first link. Hearsay and Schiff. When you have listened to Schiff repeatedly lie about Russia hysteria the pieces fall into place to view it as a manufactured crisis from an organization that profits from the resulting chaos and interference in next years campaign.

As for the text messages did you read them all? And with context? You quote an exchange between Bill Taylor and Gordon Sondland but only one side of it. I noticed that. It advances your aims here and leaves out the part where the reply was Trump was clear on not offering a quid pro quo.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:26

You think we haven't read it? I can't speak for the others but I've read both cover to cover and all of the published text messages, as well as heard Trump's asks of China and Ukraine. I don't know why you think your president is okay.

I'll give you points for loyalty, but I'll subtract a ton for it being to Trump instead of the country. Spin and deflect all you want. Your president betrayed his oath of office and broke the law.
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Re: Trump

Post by red assassin » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 10:06

Masterbagger wrote:
Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:13
This is the text of the whistleblower complaint. You in particular need to read this.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... nclass.pdf

This is the text of the transcript.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4273988 ... from_embed

What I know in addition to this is that it began as a leak to Schiff. He knew before it went to the IG and lied about knowing. The IG has just changed it's rules to allow secondhand reporting which this is. In their own words this accuser admits they did not hear the call and that is right there in that first link. Hearsay and Schiff. When you have listened to Schiff repeatedly lie about Russia hysteria the pieces fall into place to view it as a manufactured crisis from an organization that profits from the resulting chaos and interference in next years campaign.

As for the text messages did you read them all? And with context? You quote an exchange between Bill Taylor and Gordon Sondland but only one side of it. I noticed that. It advances your aims here and leaves out the part where the reply was Trump was clear on not offering a quid pro quo.
I have read both. What precisely do you think is in the transcript that disproves anything the whistleblower said?

I also think it's fascinating you said I've only quoted one side of the text exchange. My first quote is Volker being quite explicit about a demand for quid pro quo. The other two are indeed Taylor, but he doesn't appear to be any more reassured by the denials from Sondland than I am. You can't just declare "no quid pro quo!" while demanding stuff that's clearly quid pro quo. I'm not saying you have to believe from this exchange alone that there was quid pro quo - but I am suggesting that 1) given 2/3 parties seem to pretty clearly think there is, it's at the very least probable cause for an investigation 2) even if there's not quid pro quo here it's a direct abuse of presidential power to demand politically useful election interference from a foreign country, which is also illegal.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 11:55

Compare and contrast how the Obama administration responded to the eight Congressional inquiries into Benghazi with how the Trump administration has responded, to date, with the various impeachment inquiries.

People like Pompeo who actively "prosecuted" the Benghazi inquiries, interviewing Clinton etc, are now refusing to appear.

The hypocrisy is amazing.
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BugMeister
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Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 12:02

It's high time that the "opinion" suggesting that a sitting president cannot be indicted while in office, was examined closely..
It was an opinion actively supported by that kreep Brett Kavanaugh - it's how and why he got his position on the bench..

- it remains an OPINION - it must be reviewed urgently as matter of national security..

Especially while this fakery exists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AxAvh3-ck
Last edited by BugMeister on Thu, 10. Oct 19, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 12:22

Masterbagger wrote:
Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:13
I know in addition to this is that it began as a leak to Schiff. He knew before it went to the IG and lied about knowing. The IG has just changed it's rules to allow secondhand reporting which this is. In their own words this accuser admits they did not hear the call and that is right there in that first link. Hearsay and Schiff. When you have listened to Schiff repeatedly lie about Russia hysteria the pieces fall into place to view it as a manufactured crisis from an organization that profits from the resulting chaos and interference in next years campaign.
All rendered completely irrelevant by the fact the President called on both Ukraine and China to investigate the Bidens LIVE ON TELEVISION.
The fact the whistle-blowers information alleging the same was 2nd hand is moot in light of the fact we now have not one but TWO (the second being the transcript Trump so helpfully released) primary sources confirming the most impeachable allegations to be 100% true . . . . . from no less than Mr Trumps own mouth.
I'm genuinely stunned that you (or anyone) can still be trying call shenanigans in light of this.
But then I suppose any sane person who took Trump at face value or actually listened to the words that fall from his pie-hole (often by accident I suspect) wouldn't ever vote for him, so I maybe it makes some sense.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 15:29

Masterbagger wrote:
Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:13
What I know in addition to this is that it began as a leak to Schiff. He knew before it went to the IG and lied about knowing.
For the sake of argument let's assume you are correct in the following:-

1. That it "began as a leak to Schiff".
2. That "he (Schiff presumably?) knew about it before it went to the IG".
3. And that "he (Schiff presumably?) lied about knowing".

Re 1. So what? That doesn't invalidate the whistle blower policy. Nor does it have any impact on the Trump appoint IG validating the concerns raised by the whistle blower.
Re 2. So what?
Re 3. First, is there any evidence for that? Second, so what?

But even if you're correct none of the above really matters - the Trump administration released a transcript of the call that validates everything the whistle blower claimed, and clearly demonstrates criminal behaviour by Trump. The impeachment inquiry is valid regardless of the whistle blower or events surrounding them.
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Re: Trump

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 15:42

This article is from 2016

Its all relevant but this bit is perhaps the most topical:
In other words, Trump would be in direct financial and political conflict with Turkey from the moment he was sworn into office. Once again, all his dealings with Turkey would be suspect: Would Trump act in the interests of the United States or his wallet? When faced with the prospect of losing the millions of dollars that flow into the Trump Organization each year from that Istanbul property, what position would President Trump take on the important issues involving Turkish-American relations, including that country's role in the fight against ISIS?

Another conundrum: Turkey is at war with the Kurds, America's allies in the fight against ISIS in Syria. Kurdish insurgent groups are in armed conflict with Turkey, demanding an independent Kurdistan. If Turkey cuts off the Trump Organization's cash flow from Istanbul, will Trump, who has shown many times how petty and impulsive he can be, allow that to influence how the U.S. juggles the interests of these two critical allies?
This is honestly the most infuriating things about the whole Trump (and Brexit) phenomena. IT'S ALL SO FREAKING OBVIOUS!!!!
Trump is behaving EXACTLY as he was predicted to do, he's 100% true to form, behaving as he has his entire life: As a selfish over-privileged, amoral and rather stupid confidence trickster.

He is UNFAILINGLY proving all his pre-election critics to be entirely correct, their dire warnings to be entirely valid.
And yet was elected anyway.
He was correct with his "shooting someone on 5th Avenue" comment, his inadequacy and corruptibility were already so transparent a mere bit of murder in broad daylight would barely make a dint in the running total.
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Re: Trump

Post by Chips » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 18:25

Masterbagger wrote:
Thu, 10. Oct 19, 05:13
This is the text of the whistleblower complaint. You in particular need to read this.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... nclass.pdf

This is the text of the transcript.

https://www.scribd.com/document/4273988 ... from_embed

What I know in addition to this is that it began as a leak to Schiff. He knew before it went to the IG and lied about knowing. The IG has just changed it's rules to allow secondhand reporting which this is. In their own words this accuser admits they did not hear the call and that is right there in that first link. Hearsay and Schiff. When you have listened to Schiff repeatedly lie about Russia hysteria the pieces fall into place to view it as a manufactured crisis from an organization that profits from the resulting chaos and interference in next years campaign.

As for the text messages did you read them all? And with context? You quote an exchange between Bill Taylor and Gordon Sondland but only one side of it. I noticed that. It advances your aims here and leaves out the part where the reply was Trump was clear on not offering a quid pro quo.
I kind of admire your resilience, but can we put some context on two different scenarios here and what's being defended/refuted with whataboutery.

1) There's an allegation, which has now been corroborated by several different countries (the President asking for investigations into a political opponent) let alone by the White House itself publishing some text, and you do not seem to condemn the behaviour nor agree it's bad.

2) There was a tweet from Trump /supporters about Clinton being behind the death of a guy in prison - which you accept without any other evidence as being accurate/likely and argue in support of it.

I am amazed at how the US appears to soldier on with him in the lead though - it's certainly remarkable. In the UK this sort of thing sinks our leaders in days. Unless you're Boris. Maybe it's the hair.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 19:51

lol well Boris and Trump are practically the same person, though Boris has an ability to mask his contempt with humor that Trump lacks. They're both equally slimy, from all accounts.

Trumpanzies aren't ever going to give up on Trump. He gives them targets to vent their hatred at. Yesterday it was brown people, today it's democrats, tomorrow it'll be the Kurdish. His entire platform was built on hatred and so long as these people want to have someone to hate, Trump will happily point them at his target.

Seriously, that is Trump's true power. He took all of the people that have a ton of pent up negativity and said "Follow me! I'll show you who to point it at!"
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:21

WOW and I mean WOW, it looks like even FOX news has started to get in on the impeach Donald Trump and you will never guess what, Trump ain't happy about it. Turns out FOX did a poll and it turned out that 51% are in favour of impeachment and him being thrown out of office, while 4% want him to be impeached but left in office. So it looks like FOX agrees with my 55% in favour of impeachment, and I never thought FOX news would agree with me on anything related to Trump. So who is Trump going to turn to now that even his safe place FOX news is turning their back on him.

I can't believe I'm going to do this but here it is, the FOX news poll story.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:28

felter wrote:
Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:21
WOW and I mean WOW, it looks like even FOX news has started to get in on the impeach Donald Trump and you will never guess what, Trump ain't happy about it. Turns out FOX did a poll and it turned out that 51% are in favour of impeachment and him being thrown out of office, while 4% want him to be impeached but left in office. So it looks like FOX agrees with my 55% in favour of impeachment, and I never thought FOX news would agree with me on anything related to Trump. So who is Trump going to turn to now that even his safe place FOX news is turning their back on him.

I can't believe I'm going to do this but here it is, the FOX news poll story.
Thats what I said earlier lol but yeah, Trump has turned to Breitbart. https://www.axios.com/trump-breitbart-f ... 9a812.html
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:37

Trump's pit gets deeper:

https://www.chron.com/news/crime/articl ... 506705.php

2 Ukrainian nationals have been arrested for campaign finance violations, both associates of Rudy. And both have been subpoenaed by the house inquiry.
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:44

There is no end to Trumps corruption, here's a TIME news article on how he asked Tillerson to get charges dropped for one of Giuliani's clients.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 21:47

He's done. There's just no way any among the Senate can overlook any of this and still pretend to be faithful to their oath of office or the American people.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 22:07

Some will. The more rabid and delusional like Devin Nune, Matt Gaetz (boy is he batshit crazy) and that guy with the jaw, ermm, ah yeah, Jim Jordan (boy is he batshit crazy), will overlook anything, but yeah, I think the wheels are coming off.
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