Can we have production/consumption in station logical overview for 3.0?

[mr.WHO]

There is an update for the logical station overview coming in 2.6 i think. Please dont nail me, if this is coming in 3.0.
We added some more control options for strage levels and also condensed the flowchart (multiple of the same production will be listed in one node).
Also some animations to see without clicking on nodes, how far a production cycle is.

Any chance to move statistic graphs (those at the bottom side of logical overview) to separate tab within logical overview?

I have 150 hours in game, 10 x 50+ mega complexes and I never once used that statistical graphs in station logical overview - I cannot imagine the situation where I would need statistic graphs and production nodes in the same time.
For me they are obscuring nearly 50% screen, while I'd much more like to have whole screen with production nodes.

[tomchk]

Any chance to move statistic graphs (those at the bottom side of logical overview) to separate tab within logical overview?

I have 150 hours in game, 10 x 50+ mega complexes and I never once used that statistical graphs in station logical overview - I cannot imagine the situation where I would need statistic graphs and production nodes in the same time.
For me they are obscuring nearly 50% screen, while I'd much more like to have whole screen with production nodes.

Agreed. This would be very helpful as well, even with condensing.

[linolafett]

Yes there is a chance.
I would not move it to a separate graph, as it would then be a bit more annoying to get there.
Like should we then add to the RMB context menu another entry next to "plan build" and "logical overview" for the "station statistics"?

I am currently looking at a solution, where you can collapse the bottom half of the menu (the one with the statistics), to then have the entire screen for the node view.

[tomchk]

Yes there is a chance.
I would not move it to a separate graph, as it would then be a bit more annoying to get there.
Like should we then add to the RMB context menu another entry next to "plan build" and "logical overview" for the "station statistics"?

I am currently looking at a solution, where you can collapse the bottom half of the menu (the one with the statistics), to then have the entire screen for the node view.

If we could collapse it (and it would stay that way), perhaps it's better to leave it where it is. I think a lot of the RMB menus feel quite full as it is.

On a related note, is there any chance we will get back more of the radial menus (at least as an option for controllers) we had in X:R? They were one of the many things you guys did really well in X:R, and some of us miss them! Thanks for listening to us!

[mr.WHO]

I am currently looking at a solution, where you can collapse the bottom half of the menu (the one with the statistics), to then have the entire screen for the node view.

Collapsing would be also fine - I just don't want to have thing that I don't use at all to obscure the thing that I use constantly.

I must say that both 2.6 and 3.0 start to looks like best updates ever

[linolafett]

On a related note, is there any chance we will get back more of the radial menus (at least as an option for controllers) we had in X:R?

Not planned so far.
Optional is always not great, as it makes twice the work to implement and maintain the menus.
The radials also had the issue with too few selections possible (6 or 8 iirc), this made them not versatile enough, if many options were possible (remember the usecase for asking for a certain station specialist?)

[tomchk]

Not planned so far.
Optional is always not great, as it makes twice the work to implement and maintain the menus.
The radials also had the issue with too few selections possible (6 or 8 iirc), this made them not versatile enough, if many options were possible (remember the usecase for asking for a certain station specialist?)

I hear you. How about more hotkeys that map to menu-buried features? That might be even better.

[radcapricorn]

The radials also had the issue with too few selections possible (6 or 8 iirc), this made them not versatile enough, if many options were possible (remember the usecase for asking for a certain station specialist?)

Err... Define "many". When there are "many" options possible, there's surely a small subset of them that are used most often. Those could be pulled into a radial menu, the rest remain buried. Current UI is borderline adverse to controllers, nuking all progress made in that regard in Rebirth. Can't even navigate the menus quickly or, most importantly, reliably. But I have a thread about that in the beta forum.

[linolafett]

I guess thats more an issue, because we dont have the shortcuts for inside of the menu (yet).
The old radial menus were "quickly" navigateable, because we had shortcuts for them. At least thats how i used them.
Though i often had to search in the sub menu for the right entry. I was not fun clicking the "more" button and still not getting the personal listed i wanted.

Adding shortcuts for the map is not trivial, as we have quite a few buttons on screen.
Like the top level bar (where you change between different full screen menus), then we have the left handside vertical aligned tabs for various panels. In these panels we have sometimes a horizontal bar. On the right we do have the filter and legend.
I could ignore the top level tabs for shortcuting, when the map is open, as some have already their own shortcut, and assign keys 1-9 to the left vertical tabs. How should we then map the horizontal tabs? I would not like to reuse the same keys again, as then browsing the vertical tabs would be impossible. Modifier key? Letter shortcuts?
Its a thing i would like to have at some point, but i dont have a clear concept yet for this.

[tomchk]

I guess thats more an issue, because we dont have the shortcuts for inside of the menu (yet).
The old radial menus were "quickly" navigateable, because we had shortcuts for them. At least thats how i used them.
Though i often had to search in the sub menu for the right entry. I was not fun clicking the "more" button and still not getting the personal listed i wanted.

Adding shortcuts for the map is not trivial, as we have quite a few buttons on screen.
Like the top level bar (where you change between different full screen menus), then we have the left handside vertical aligned tabs for various panels. In these panels we have sometimes a horizontal bar. On the right we do have the filter and legend.
I could ignore the top level tabs for shortcuting, when the map is open, as some have already their own shortcut, and assign keys 1-9 to the left vertical tabs. How should we then map the horizontal tabs? I would not like to reuse the same keys again, as then browsing the vertical tabs would be impossible. Modifier key? Letter shortcuts?
Its a thing i would like to have at some point, but i dont have a clear concept yet for this.

Interesting. We appreciate being involved in the thought process. Is there a way to make hotkeys for features without relying on the menus? For example, can you create a listing in the Controls menu that maps directly to such features (like a "Drop off inventory at HQ" order to a selected ship)?

[XTC0R]

I guess thats more an issue, because we dont have the shortcuts for inside of the menu (yet).
The old radial menus were "quickly" navigateable, because we had shortcuts for them. At least thats how i used them.
Though i often had to search in the sub menu for the right entry. I was not fun clicking the "more" button and still not getting the personal listed i wanted.

Adding shortcuts for the map is not trivial, as we have quite a few buttons on screen.
Like the top level bar (where you change between different full screen menus), then we have the left handside vertical aligned tabs for various panels. In these panels we have sometimes a horizontal bar. On the right we do have the filter and legend.
I could ignore the top level tabs for shortcuting, when the map is open, as some have already their own shortcut, and assign keys 1-9 to the left vertical tabs. How should we then map the horizontal tabs? I would not like to reuse the same keys again, as then browsing the vertical tabs would be impossible. Modifier key? Letter shortcuts?
Its a thing i would like to have at some point, but i dont have a clear concept yet for this.

Would it work to assign keys to rotate between tabs on the map on different locations? E.g. numpad: 1 (prev tab),4 (next tab) for left site, 8 (prev tab),9 (next tab) for top.

[linolafett]

Is there a way to make hotkeys for features without relying on the menus? For example, can you create a listing in the Controls menu that maps directly to such features (like a "Drop off inventory at HQ" order to a selected ship)?

For assigning new shortcuts, there is no easy way for the user to define them per action.
For each action a scripter would need to expose the function and add the entry to the mappings menu.
Therefore i am not aware, that shortcuts could be assigned to actions, which are not tied to specific orders, like your drop off example.

Would it work to assign keys to rotate between tabs on the map on different locations? E.g. numpad: 1 (prev tab),4 (next tab) for left site, 8 (prev tab),9 (next tab) for top.

You can navigate through the tabs via kind of similar navigation already. Its not so precise and quick.
By having for each button a key assigned, you can very quickly go wehre you want to (e.g. m->3->2 for the behaviours tab).
Doing it like your suggestion would be more difficult to remember. It would be m->4->4->4->9.

[tomchk]

Is there a way to make hotkeys for features without relying on the menus? For example, can you create a listing in the Controls menu that maps directly to such features (like a "Drop off inventory at HQ" order to a selected ship)?

For assigning new shortcuts, there is no easy way for the user to define them per action.
For each action a scripter would need to expose the function and add the entry to the mappings menu.
Therefore i am not aware, that shortcuts could be assigned to actions, which are not tied to specific orders, like your drop off example.

I gather that it's not as easy as I hoped, but if you could pick one area to create hotkeys/mappable controls, I urge you to consider squad commands, like attack my target, etc., as discussed in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=146&t=418509). If you can make such commands (at least to a squad) override any other commands rather than go into a queue, that would also help a lot!

[radcapricorn]

I guess thats more an issue, because we dont have the shortcuts for inside of the menu (yet).
The old radial menus were "quickly" navigateable, because we had shortcuts for them. At least thats how i used them.
Though i often had to search in the sub menu for the right entry. I was not fun clicking the "more" button and still not getting the personal listed i wanted.

They were quickly navigable because the UI was fluid and consistent. Have you tried playing a longer session of X4 with a controller? Open menu, down down down down down down, press A. Open missions, down down down, press X for context menu, down, press A (set to active). But then... Open crew list down down down X for context menu, oops, context menu doesn't open, use mouse emulation first! Used mouse emulation? Press X now. Uh, no, can't activate first option, down up first! Open property list, down down down down select ship, press A - center on ship. Up up up up up select station, press A - oops, doesn't center, expands the station tree instead... Want to order a ship to do something with another object (i.e. dock at station)? Have to use mouse emulation. Opened context menu for current target? Can still strafe with one stick, but don't touch the steering, menu will close (apparently, it's different for joystick players).
Things like that make the UI repulsive. So even if you add more options in menus, it wouldn't be fun using them. That is, until there are menus that are fluid and consistent. Which is what radial menus are. Hold button, swipe mouse (or stick) in the correct direction, release button. One button, ton of actions. Shortcut savings are just huge. And you can save the short tap of the same button for a quick action.

Adding shortcuts for the map is not trivial, as we have quite a few buttons on screen.
Like the top level bar (where you change between different full screen menus), then we have the left handside vertical aligned tabs for various panels. In these panels we have sometimes a horizontal bar. On the right we do have the filter and legend.
I could ignore the top level tabs for shortcuting, when the map is open, as some have already their own shortcut, and assign keys 1-9 to the left vertical tabs. How should we then map the horizontal tabs? I would not like to reuse the same keys again, as then browsing the vertical tabs would be impossible. Modifier key? Letter shortcuts?
Its a thing i would like to have at some point, but i dont have a clear concept yet for this.

You have WASDQE (or alternative in dvorak or what have you), which for some strange reason you guys redundantly bound to panning/rotating the map, when analog inputs already let you do that (i.e. mouse and sticks on controllers). You have the Tab key, Shift, R, F, Z, X, C, Space, tilde or whatever's to the left of 1 in a given layout. There's literally a ton of keys that could be useful.
For example:
- switching top level tabs: Q and E (controller, as is now - LB, RB)
- navigating left hand side: W, S up-down, A, D left right (controller - D-Pad)
- toggling left/right hand side (though I'd prefer right hand side ditched altogether, but that's another story): Tab (controller - Select button; no, seriously, external view can be opened via menu, and is not needed on the map, at least when playing with a controller)
- pressing "right" (i.e. D or right on D-Pad) expands item if it's expandable
- pressing "activate" (i.e. F or Enter, or A on controller) activates, not expands

Etc, etc...
Is that really not enough keys?

[linolafett]

Thats the difference between a game designed around a controller and one around mouse input.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. Enough people complained about the controller centric layout of xr, now we are on the other spectrum and this does not please the controller user folks.
Try ordering a fully equiped capital ship in xr, to see the "dark side" of that approach.

See my reply above where i explained, why i think having not explicit keys for each button is not as great as having each button assigned to a key.

[Buzz2005]

I actually would not mind that all stays the same but that you could navigate all UI with a controller even if I have to hit the button 100 times, I mean I played X3 for years and it was a key stroke fest

but wingman commands should be on the main screen and not tied to the map

[radcapricorn]

I'm not talking about designing for a controller vs. keyboard. It's 2019, and X4 is a game, not Maya or Blender or Excel Don't make players move their hands unnecessarily! Available actions should be quick and accessible regardless of what you control the game with. And predictable.
When you're playing, your left hand is on WASD and right hand is on mouse. Or your hands are on controller. Or left hand on throttle, right on stick. Whatever. The UI should be designed around that, and pulling the most value out of it. It's futile trying to assign unique key for every possible action. You'll run out of any controller like that. Make context matter, and do more with less. Like the above map WASDQE example.
Some of the design choices in the game's UI are outright adverse to any control input, they induce attention strain, i.e. disconnect interaction from context. Comms are at the bottom, ship selection top left, crew assignment top right. So to achieve one task (hire a crewmember) you have to literally span the whole screen with your eyes and your hand(s)! Not to mention wholly different "select" action. Where normally for things in game it's just mouse click or highlight with arrow keys/controller, here it's suddenly right click? That's equally undesireable with mouse or controller. Why right hand side? If you already force us to right click a ship, why not put workplace selection right into that same context menu? No right hand side needed at all, no issue with allocating a key to switch to it. Map filters etc. could also live happily on the left.
You can comm your ship and fire its captain. But you can't comm your ship and tell it to "fly to me" or "return home" or whatever. Which orders would be used more often? Sure, it's funny firing a marine right from a flying boarding pod, when you do it the first time. But I'd rather be able to tell that marine to abort the op and return, or to quit flapping around and make contact with target already!
There are two scan modes where one would suffice (another hotkey "eaten", more state to track for the game and the player). Docking requests operate differently via hotkey and menu. Mission briefing screens occupy enormous screen real estate just because some missions might show you the map... while you already have the map open! Make them show you your target on the actual map, and don't shove the "accept/decline" buttons all the way to the bottom right, when they're right there near the mission description (i.e. where your eyes and mouse pointer are already)!

TLDR: There's a lot more problems in how the game's UI organized, than assigning keys to various actions.

(And BTW, I've no issues with ordering fully equipped capitals in XR).

[tomchk]

You can comm your ship and fire its captain. But you can't comm your ship and tell it to "fly to me" or "return home" or whatever. Which orders would be used more often? Sure, it's funny firing a marine right from a flying boarding pod, when you do it the first time. But I'd rather be able to tell that marine to abort the op and return,

I think this is an excellent point. If you could put more frequently-used commands in the comm radial (I doubt firing is one), that would help so much. Thanks!

[tomchk]

PS: I just saw this older thread, and it has great ideas (even mock-ups!) that perhaps you could use. Please take a look if you haven't! I think radial would make the most sense regardless of control scheme, but I bet you could do this without radial. viewtopic.php?f=146&t=417229

[mr.WHO]

Can someone post here a station logical overview screenshots from 2.60 beta?