Questions about economy.

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zazie
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by zazie » Tue, 19. Mar 19, 13:31

Also would it be a good idea to buy NPC resources for any reason?
Profits! The player can't compete with EC sold at 12 cr. If you do your math about ROI of EC-production only, it is obvious that the player's EC-production can't compete with the crystal-less EC-production from NPC. Same for Food basics. Player-owned factories can't produce Sunflowers for minimal prize, same for soja beans.

But of course, closed loop production has a psychological profit: build and forget. As I have read you are not caring too much about NPC-economy. Of course that is your playing style and your decision.
For myself I am pretty convinced that on a long term timescale buying local is helping making more profits as the number of buyers of the top-notch products (and drugs) is higher than in a universe where some regions are economically devastated. I am not talking about 5-10 IG-days but >30 IG-days here.
I can't prove it, but as evidence I can refer to the many threads asking how to save the Terran economy or how to get the economy back on track in Aldrin.

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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 19. Mar 19, 19:39

zazie wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 13:31
Also would it be a good idea to buy NPC resources for any reason?
Profits!
There is an alternative interpretation:

Let there be a Farm with Beef. You can obviously transfer the Beef to Bakery. That is the case A.

Case B:
Sell the Beef. You probably get a decent price for it. Then your company accounting assigns the credits to the Bakery and the Bakery buys Beef. Cheap Beef.

The Farm lost Beef and the Bakery got Beef, just like in case A, but in addition Beef was bought cheap and sold at higher price. There is the profits.


There will be times when the NPC cannot provide, but your logistics could fall back to case A-like operation. Besides, the combined stock space of Farm and Bakery can serve as storage buffer.


However, there was a concern about the high end competition. That is somewhat true.

Lets have a player, who never builds anything and never trades anything. No effect on the NPC economy.

Lets have a player, who builds only "closed production". The effect on NPC economy is that the Docks fill up more
=> leads to the NPC Dock Traders to fill up
=> Tech Fabs fill up
=> Resource traders fill up
=> cascade to all NPC. Cheap resources everywhere. Loaded NPC traders waiting to deliver.
=> competition against player getting something sold ought to increase, unless GoD reaps NPC Factories and the Red the Free Traders

Yes, there are big credits per unit in the Guns, but there is only rather limited units per hour of them and in state of surplus the count is less. All the Energy, Minerals, Bio, and Food in the X-Universe are a huge amount of units per hour.


I cannot say for certain that selling only your "own" Guns would net less than trading everything. However, like zazie, I have that feeling. (If we are wrong, then it is our loss, but it seems than we can afford it. :roll: )
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Sat, 23. Mar 19, 11:49

Thanks for all the replies. Real life (and the research on Kha'ak Clusters) had me busy over the course of the week, finally I get some time to reply.
Red-Spot wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 09:26
Having a little trial and error with some factories you will quickly learn that for instance a Cahoona Bakery can be placed at 0.6*0.6*2.0km (Cattle Ranch 1,5*1,5*2 iirc, etc etc) distance from one an other and will make a nice tightly packed bunch of factories that you might still get into with a docking computer but becomes rather difficult to get out of alive again afterwards
I remember making an excel file where I wrote down the relative "safe" distances on X, Y and Z axis of many factories back in the day. I wonder where is that file now. . .
Altruist wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 10:53
If you can build complexes like this, I feel like every info I can give is completly superfluous...
This is not true, this thread has definitely had many good points haven't ever crossed my mind. Of course I already know a good part of the information mentioned, but don't get discouraged by that - if you feel something should be mentioned, then by all means... you never know when something most obvious to you might be an eye opening for another person :D
zazie wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 13:31
Profits! The player can't compete with EC sold at 12 cr. If you do your math about ROI of EC-production only, it is obvious that the player's EC-production can't compete with the crystal-less EC-production from NPC.
Hmm... I see where are you coming from. I agree player's production can't compete with NPC production, however, while it surely benefits that particular NPC station economically, I fail to see how this benefits player. If you plop a silicon mine L on a decent asteroid, along with a L-size crystal, food, bio and spp facs, within around 76 hours you would end up recovering your investment, matching the amount of energy cells you could have bought at 12 credits per unit using that sum of money. And from that point onwards, which is just over 3 days in, all the energy cells produced by that loop is free, forever. You can as well drop an L mine on a 0-yield asteroid, even at the production level as low as this, it will pay for itself in 3 days, and for costs of a M-size bio,food,crystal and spp fabs in 37 more days, even though the fabs will be idle 90% of the time. But that's why we merge several mines into one complex, so we don't need to pay for idle factories to this extent. This actually reminds me of something I wanted to discuss, but I'll make a separate reply for that...

If you build a huge complex within a sector without any unused silicon asteroids, buying cheap from NPC will certainly make sense if you wish to expand your complex beyond the maximum sector energy production, but as long as there are unused silicon asteroids in the safe sectors of the universe, there is a little point in doing this, in my opinion.
jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 19:39
Case B:
Sell the Beef. You probably get a decent price for it. Then your company accounting assigns the credits to the Bakery and the Bakery buys Beef. Cheap Beef.

The Farm lost Beef and the Bakery got Beef, just like in case A, but in addition Beef was bought cheap and sold at higher price. There is the profits.
Hmm, this certainly made me think for a moment. Interesting approach. Looks like it can be arranged without too much complication. Still it looks like if you could track oh how much beef you get to sell/buy every hour, it would end up being a better deal to build a separate complex just to sell beef and avoid having to pay cheap at all. The NPC factories selling to you will probably be impacted to some extent, slowing their production and consuming less energy cells, but someone will end up consuming these energy cells anyway. Probably...
jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 19:39
Yes, there are big credits per unit in the Guns, but there is only rather limited units per hour of them and in state of surplus the count is less. All the Energy, Minerals, Bio, and Food in the X-Universe are a huge amount of units per hour.
Certainly, seems like these should sell nicely. I definitely see how most of people responding here are having fun keeping all kinds of trades open with NPC production. It might be worth having a look for me too. If only LordSuch's Sector Planner worked in TC...

I have more issues regarding economy / complex building I want to discuss, stay tuned for a later reply.

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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 23. Mar 19, 14:47

The Sector Planner was written for X2 that has static (GoDless) map. GoD (and later Station Build missions) make it necessary to fetch current map status, if you want "real status".

Scorp's Map viewtopic.php?f=2&t=166320 seems to support that. There seems to be a version for X3TC.
The idea is to run a script that exports data from the game and then analyze that data outside of game.

If you want to stay "unmodified", then:
  1. Save "A"
  2. Enable Script Editor
  3. Run the script
  4. Reload "A" and continue your unmodified game
Sector Planner was a "limited version" of the idea, for the data had been exported only once, by LordSuch.

I have used the vanilla "Export Player Statistics" to check what I have built. (It is easier to count the Mines that I have built from a list than in-game.)


I presume that if you export data (with Scorp's tools) on multiple timepoints, then you can estimate the NPC consumption of secondaries.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Red-Spot » Sun, 24. Mar 19, 19:06

nponoBegHuk wrote:
Sat, 23. Mar 19, 11:49
jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 19. Mar 19, 19:39
Yes, there are big credits per unit in the Guns, but there is only rather limited units per hour of them and in state of surplus the count is less. All the Energy, Minerals, Bio, and Food in the X-Universe are a huge amount of units per hour.
Certainly, seems like these should sell nicely. I definitely see how most of people responding here are having fun keeping all kinds of trades open with NPC production. It might be worth having a look for me too. If only LordSuch's Sector Planner worked in TC...
If stuff gets used by the AI (food, EC's), does the engine make it go poof anyway? If not than that calculation should be easy and straightforward ... up until you start trying to take into account how many of the traders buying/selling end up wandering into xenon-space :)
The big difficulty in finding saturation levels for different wares are the unknown's:
  • How much does the engine influence things
  • How much gets lost via destroyed traders

The rest can pretty much be calculated and prioritized:
  • How much is needed of any 'consumable' (if any)
  • How much jumpfuel is needed (at a minimum, if used)
  • Saturate the market with or without AI production in mind
  • Take totals or try to balance/saturate locally

Just thinking out loud. You can prioritize this a 101 ways but you will probably always run into the unknowns at some point.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Sun, 24. Mar 19, 23:21

jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 23. Mar 19, 14:47
The Sector Planner was written for X2 that has static (GoDless) map. GoD (and later Station Build missions) make it necessary to fetch current map status, if you want "real status".

I presume that if you export data (with Scorp's tools) on multiple timepoints, then you can estimate the NPC consumption of secondaries.
I already thought about using ScorpBY's script to fetch currently built factories, but I'm being lazy about parsing the retrieved data to get consumption per hour and such. I'll get into it sometime, though!

By the way, what exactly does GoD mean? Why is it capital D? I thought it was just God like God in the Heavens...
Red-Spot wrote:
Sun, 24. Mar 19, 19:06
Just thinking out loud. You can prioritize this a 101 ways but you will probably always run into the unknowns at some point.
I guess you're right, there are just too many variables to be aware of. There is no way you can know exactly how much of any given ware you will sell per hour with ever-changing universe. I guess X3AP players have it easier - with all the graphs and such. Overbuild any dedicated complex, look how much it sells over time, disable surplus factories to some extent, replace by something else. You will end up with an ugly "annex", but oh well...

On a side note, I decided not cheating with microchips for the hub this time, but I have a dilemma right here. I plan to finish HUB in 1.3 and there are no Crystal Fabs L until 2.0. And I don't want any Crystal Fabs M in my chip complex... Will either build it with Fabs M anyway and end up with a subpar complex, or having to pay millions for replacing a whole bunch of expensive crystal fabs with updated versions.

Maybe the best idea would be to set up a dummy crystal fab array in a different sector and set logistics operation to and from that array while L fabs are not available. After patching past 2.0, complete the chip complex with Crystal Fabs L it needs, and repurpose Crystal Fab M array for something else... :gruebel:
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by jlehtone » Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:31

GoD: Global Decision engine (It was introduced in X3R 1.2 or 1.3.)

Each sector has a predetermined set of NPC Factories (and Mines). Some are "on" (present and active), some "off" (do not exist).

Occasionally there are "economic events", positive or negative. I'm not sure whether GoD creates the events, or simply handles them.

Negative event turns a station "off". Poof, its gone! One alleged method for player to protect the NPC is to have a ship docked there.

Positive event turns a station "on". That is not instant; a NPC TL sails from Shipyard to the destination sector with Contruction kit in its cargobay before the Factory is (re)built. (Some Pirates boast boarding Transports to get their hands on rare kits.)


As said, the maximum amount of NPC stations in the most positive economy state are preset in the Galaxy map, but I presume that the Station Building Missions are not in that included in that set.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Red-Spot » Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:49

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:31
As said, the maximum amount of NPC stations in the most positive economy state are preset in the Galaxy map, but I presume that the Station Building Missions are not in that included in that set.
Personally I think whether you actively take part in the AI's eco may have more impact than how many stations are removed/build by GoD.
GoD generally does not really alter any sector afaik, it may build/remove 1-2 stations and that seems it. Build missions can not be calculated as they are so varied and very game dependent, I've seen Ringo Moon become a very overbuild sector, Seizewell once was the Teladi weapon-hub (they had nearly every weapon and shield that could be build in Seizewell), in my current game The Wall has become a 'ST-nursery'.

If you actively supply say AI's weapons fabs you may actually be able to make as much profit as when you would not and sell more weapons from self-supporting complexes. That is probably a choice that has to be made up front, support the AI and take their output into account, or ignore it and simply allow them to 'freeze' by never being able to unload their goods (well, AI-traders will always try .. :D).

nponoBegHuk wrote:
Sun, 24. Mar 19, 23:21
Maybe the best idea would be to set up a dummy crystal fab array in a different sector and set logistics operation to and from that array while L fabs are not available. After patching past 2.0, complete the chip complex with Crystal Fabs L it needs, and repurpose Crystal Fab M array for something else... :gruebel:
Not sure how you want to go about it, but would starting the game in earlier patches be able to influence the economy?
Also, why not use the script editor to get certain things going? Earning the vast amount of credits needed to build the required complexes is gonna set you back several 100 hours, unless you cheat/'bend the rules' in some other way.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:53

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:31
GoD: Global Decision engine (It was introduced in X3R 1.2 or 1.3.)
What a funky abbreviation. But I guess we can be glad it is not GloD.
jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:31
(Some Pirates boast boarding Transports to get their hands on rare kits.)
Don't tell the government *cough* https://i.imgur.com/X5p11Xc.png
jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:31
As said, the maximum amount of NPC stations in the most positive economy state are preset in the Galaxy map, but I presume that the Station Building Missions are not in that included in that set.
I like to do a lot of station building missions from pirates but mostly avoid all the other races. Not sure if it matters for GoD engine or not...

By the way, any good estimates on how well drugs and squash mines sell? wonder how many factories to aim for.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Mon, 25. Mar 19, 22:12

Red-Spot wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:49
Not sure how you want to go about it, but would starting the game in earlier patches be able to influence the economy?
Also, why not use the script editor to get certain things going? Earning the vast amount of credits needed to build the required complexes is gonna set you back several 100 hours, unless you cheat/'bend the rules' in some other way.
Credits are not much of a problem. I'm playing without script editor for the added challenge.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Hemmingfish » Tue, 26. Mar 19, 03:32

nponoBegHuk wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 17:53
I like to do a lot of station building missions from pirates but mostly avoid all the other races. Not sure if it matters for GoD engine or not...

By the way, any good estimates on how well drugs and squash mines sell? wonder how many factories to aim for.
From my understanding player-constructed stations are completely immune to GoD. Only stations that exist at the start of the game are affected (apart from tractor beam factories I believe, which are a special case because they kept disappearing in previous patches before anyone could buy tractor beams).
Of those factories that it manages, as long as they're shipping product or buying other products or have a player ship docked they won't be removed. There are also rules about re-adding stations but I don't know what they are. In my current game the Solar Power Plant in Jupiter has about a 50/50 chance of being there or not.

As for drugs, they sell extremely well, especially Space Fuel. I have a complex in the unknown sector in TC that becomes known as Avarice using every asteroid and it sells Space Fuel as quickly as it can make it. You can even abuse it being illegal by making a complex in regulated space and freight scanning every ship that leaves.

I've never tried to make Squash Mines so I can't comment on them.

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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Tue, 26. Mar 19, 14:20

Hemmingfish wrote:
Tue, 26. Mar 19, 03:32
Only stations that exist at the start of the game are affected (apart from tractor beam factories I believe, which are a special case because they kept disappearing in previous patches before anyone could buy tractor beams).
Playing 1.0.1 here, I have to hurry I guess...
nponoBegHuk wrote:
Sat, 23. Mar 19, 11:49
If only LordSuch's Sector Planner worked in TC...
Actually... 8)
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Red-Spot » Wed, 27. Mar 19, 00:13

All I get from that is that you are named 'Bob' and I can forget that long difficult to remember name you use here :D
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Wed, 27. Mar 19, 01:17

Red-Spot wrote:
Wed, 27. Mar 19, 00:13
All I get from that is that you are named 'Bob' and I can forget that long difficult to remember name you use here :D
Sector Planner stores its data in an unencrypted xml file, and since not much changed between X3:Reunion and X3TC/AP, with some effort it would be possible to adapt it to work with TC. Introduction of the new race might be an issue, as well as some trouble with solar power plants and such, but still...

Luckily, the Export Universe script works right off the bat, only had to recompile it to update for TC engine.

And yup, Bob is fine! :wink:
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Timsup2nothin » Wed, 27. Mar 19, 20:11

Hemmingfish wrote:
Tue, 26. Mar 19, 03:32

From my understanding player-constructed stations are completely immune to GoD. Only stations that exist at the start of the game are affected (apart from tractor beam factories I believe, which are a special case because they kept disappearing in previous patches before anyone could buy tractor beams).
Of those factories that it manages, as long as they're shipping product or buying other products or have a player ship docked they won't be removed. There are also rules about re-adding stations but I don't know what they are. In my current game the Solar Power Plant in Jupiter has about a 50/50 chance of being there or not.
Yes, but...

While the algorithm removes stations based on its own somewhat arcane ideas about utility, there are other ways that the game engine is removing stations. Making sure that there is economic activity at a station will protect it from the GD algorithm, and parking a ship will protect it even better...but if the pirate job algorithm spawns a pirate task force with sufficient firepower that station is going to disappear, and unless you happen to see it getting pummeled you won't really know why it is gone, you'll just know that it is.
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Honved » Thu, 28. Mar 19, 15:59

In my experiences, one can either work WITH the NPC stations by producing whatever inputs they're short on, and make money from the dramatic increases in trade opportunities, or else compete with the NPC stations and try to muscle them out of business. The latter can potentially produce a lot more production income, but a lot less trade income. I generally support the local economy, unless I'm playing a semi-pirate, or targeting one specific race's factories (and ships) for near-annihilation.

Clearly, the amount of materials that can be sold depends to some degree on how active the NPC stations are: if they're running at full production rates, one can sell a LOT of intermediate goods to them at a decent profit, plus make money on selling their output to final consumers (Trade Stations, Equipment Docks, Military Bases, etc.). Building a complex to handle everything only gives you profits at the final stage; granted that you get the ENTIRE price as profit, but it's possible to make MORE, because the NPCs can continue to operate at a loss at more than one stage of the total process, while you sell those goods at a profit at each step.

E-Cells purchased below average prices, sold at a little above average to bio farm. Bulk bio purchased at below average prices, sold to food processor at slightly above average. Food bought cheap and sold to weapons factory at a profit, etc. The self-contained factory will buy/sell each intermediate good to the adjacent stages at the same price, so only the final output provides a source of direct profit. Those intermediate stages also offer a lot more of a total production "sink" than the EQ Docks, Trade Stations, and Mil Bases do for specific goods, unless you're willing to manually transfer the products a few pieces at a time (in which case a few items have unlimited capacity).

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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by Red-Spot » Mon, 22. Apr 19, 00:36

Bob, I've set up a new empire with knowledge of the last. Still working on it, will give you more info when I have more up.
This time I'm going for over the top independent hubs. (Using AM for Ore now, just finished that Hub-plot element, then attaching 10 EBC ammo and 35 EBC forges, WT = Flak hub, SB = PPC hub, HN = light weapon hub (HEPT, PAC, PRG))

Made GC into a single weed-hub, instead of the spread in previous game, it holds only slightly more than the previous hubs combined with 27 Bliss places. Let's see if it saturates the market or not :)

As per previous empire, it will all be logged :)

Edit: 27 Bliss-plexes does not seem enough to saturate the market.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1720008154

Edit: So far ...
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1734417265

Going to let factories fill up, even with resources, by that time I'll have completed the defensive line (Tigers on Hubs, sets of Centaurs on patrol and Borias' on gates ... add a few Panthers on multi-sector patrol perhaps :)).
Would you like me to add something specific?
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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by DrSuperEvil » Tue, 7. May 19, 23:04

From what I have been able to gather for secondary resources the formula is (timestep * percentage / (100 * 2)) / relval . The timestep is in seconds with 600 seconds for most stations and docks have 300 and percentage is either 6 or 12 with 6 for tech/missiles/weapons. Stations that are focused on (player goes IS or station is ordered to open menus) cause an interrupt which reduces the time.

This boils down to 6 or 12% of 1x productivity (which is 2x RelVal) consumed per tick so for docks it is 72% per hour for tech/missiles/weapons and 144% for other stations.

When the value to be consumed is zero the inverse is computed and then a random value is used [relval * 200 / (percentage * timestep)]. If this also returns zero then the use amount is (timestep / 20) + 1.

Solar Power Plant consumption of Crystals are a special case. They only have a 14% chance of consuming, and they will only consume crystals when in a production cycle (other factories consume them even if they aren't producing anything). Also the consumption is actually only 1 minute time steps (the comments all say 10 minutes, but the code says 1 minute).

In practice though I have not been able to verify these formulae due to having too small a data set.

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Re: Questions about economy.

Post by nponoBegHuk » Wed, 8. May 19, 00:23

DrSuperEvil wrote:
Tue, 7. May 19, 23:04
From what I have been able to gather...
Appreciate your input. I'll look into it soon.

Also, I'll send you a private message on a different topic, hope you can help.

Cheers.
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