[WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

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Thufar
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 15:38

Marvin Martian wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 09:05
Maybe someone notice that the Shippart -thing is only an addon -> you don't need to use it if is so terrible imbalancend in your opinion
Marvin,
Is this simply done by not loading the mm_uspprod part of this mod package? If so, does that basically revert ship production back to a more vanilla way?
Thanks,
Thufar

Thufar
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 16:04

BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 27. Oct 18, 01:29
Thufar wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 17:21
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Dag nagget, I typed all this up, hit submit, and got sent to login screen. So, here goes again.

Hi BlackRain, it appears I've struck an unintended bad chord. I've been asking questions about the introduction of two ship part wares, and why in an attempt to understand why and help with the problem.

First, I am not a programmer, therefore not a modder. Just a player, and my observations are from in-game.

Second, the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) consumes and inordinate amount of plasma flow regulators, iirc, and causes a situation similar to the old RMP shortage problem. It appears a player must now build 5 or more stations to produce enough PFRs to support one Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), and that seems inordinately high. Of course, no ship parts = no CVs = no new stations to build PFRs....

Third, it appears to me, there's a flood of underlying products in this mod, making ship part production "the" best way to make money in the trading aspect of this mod and that is broken.

Fourth, of the two production runs in the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), the Ship Part production seems to be stable. The Ship Part (Weapons) is another story. Depending on when you look at that production run, it can display production as "(quantity here) Ship Part (Weapons)" or "(same quantity here) Ship Part". Also, it appears the needed resources display change, as well as the quantity thereof. I now understand part of that problem is the assembly run, but that is only part of the problem I am describing here.

Fifth, my ignorant/unknowledgeable thinking was that the problem lay with the use of the variable production in the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for ship parts production and why wasn't a more stable production facility used, or why one couldn't be used.

Apologies to any and all if I've given the appearance of "questioning" anyone. This is just me, the ignorant, trying to ask questions and offer possible solutions.

Regards,
Thufar
For your second point, isn't this something which could easily be changed by editing the amount of plasma flow regulators it takes to build a ship part? Seems like a simple fix to me.

Third point, I think the point is that ship part production SHOULD be the best way to make money. Think about it, wouldn't the parts needed for ships (and ships themselves) be extremely profitable in space? Why is that broken? Isn't it a choice to choose whether to trade in those things or not? This is something which could easily be changed though just by playing around with buy/sell prices.

Fourth point, I guess a separate production line that focuses on ship part weapons alone would be sufficient. I haven't really looked at these aspects of the mod in a long time.

Fifth, not sure what you mean here. Are you asking why we didn't just make a specific station to only focus on 'ship parts'?
BlackRain,

Second Point: If it was as simple as editing the amount of plasma flow regulators used, I'm sure it would have been done already.

Third Point: Perhaps ship part production should be the best. Given the amounts of wares being shipped around the universe, it seems it is the only way, which I would suggest shouldn't be. I think I read somewhere in this thread that the mod initially fills the warehouses with products to get the economy going. Perhaps other trade opportunities evidence themselves as the economy works through the initial flood. Perhaps I simply haven't played the mod long enough to see this.

Fourth and Fifth Point: Just a suggestion to think about.

Lastly, BlackRain, it appears this aspect of the mod needs more attention / love than it's gotten. This ship parts production facility is broken. Please take a little time to observe these stations in game, you'll see. If ships are produced by ship parts and ship parts weapons, and the production of ship parts weapons is broken, then ship production is broken - hence, defeating the purpose of introducing them in the first place.

Thanks,
Thufar

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 18:30

Modding is always change the regular way, if you not activate the Shipparts extension it won‘t missed much

Yes you cant change amount, but that will make the production simply cheaper for you
One way may to lower production time of the ware you have a lack of, that may break balance less

Thufar
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 21:15

Marvin and/or BlackRain,

Have you guys considered adding AutoCrew to your mod, or something else that might do the same? Maybe making it an option to be turned on/off in the police chief command structure? This mod, or something like it, sure would help eliminate the somewhat distasteful hiring of so many npcs.

Just a suggestion,
Thufar

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Kane Hart
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Kane Hart » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 23:43

Hektos wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 18:16
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Kane Hart wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 05:52
Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it ;)
I realize that its a WIP and not a released mod, but perhaps it would be a good idea to turn over control of the thread to someone who can maintain it a bit better :P
Don't think they want to :)

Vectorial1024
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Vectorial1024 » Fri, 2. Nov 18, 19:34

Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:41
Or... *deep chaotic voice intensifies* we could fork this, give credits, and make this mod our own... (Isn't this what New Frontiers did? Ripping off from CWIR?)
Computer Science student, reporting for duty. College gon be tough, so no need to be rush.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:10

Vectorial1024 wrote:
Fri, 2. Nov 18, 19:34
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:41
Or... *deep chaotic voice intensifies* we could fork this, give credits, and make this mod our own... (Isn't this what New Frontiers did? Ripping off from CWIR?)
Is this a joke? You do realize that CWIR is my mod and so is this? The credits are for people who contributed. Most of those contributions were very small ones but credit must still be given even if the contribution was just a small bit of code out of respect. I am the one who did the most work, followed by Rubini and then Marvin. Marvin has been maintaining this mod but on his own time and with whatever effort he wants to put in and he is the only person who has my permission at this time to work on the mod. As I already said, this mod was always meant to be a WIP. Whether it ever becomes a full or finished mod is for us to decide.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:20

Kane Hart wrote:
Thu, 1. Nov 18, 23:43
Hektos wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 18:16
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Kane Hart wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 05:52
Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it ;)
I realize that its a WIP and not a released mod, but perhaps it would be a good idea to turn over control of the thread to someone who can maintain it a bit better :P
Don't think they want to :)
I will reply to this even if I don't see a real need to because if I wanted to do that, I would have done it already. If Marvin needs me to update something or help out with anything, then he will communicate it to me as has always been the case. He hasn't mentioned to me anything even though I have asked a few times which tells me he has things in order for the most part. Of course whenever he needs something from me I will be happy to do it when I have the time but it isn't a priority to me.

conquestor
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by conquestor » Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:49

Are the cartel phoenix in fields of opportunity infinitely respawning? I've capped 20 so far and as soon as I leave the sectors they're swarming all over again.

BlackRain
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:52

Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:41
Thufar wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 02:20
...

I think the original purpose is defeated already. Might it be time to re-think this concept?

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Thufar (soon to be nicknamed Debby Downer)
Rethinking this concept is, IMO, a bit difficult. (Not that I don't want to; there's another factor supporting the uni-parts method)

As a matter of fact, players are able to buy S/M ships at shipyards only after the 2.X update (forgot exactly which update).

Then, there is this problem that the DeVries shipyard would consume too much resources. The reason is that while the L/XL cradles can sit around all day without doing anything/consuming anything, the S/M shipyards can't; they have to consume resources until they run out of resources to make ships or run out of space to store S/M ships.

And then there is this guy who said "well screw this Imma just implement the BTO behavior of L/XL cradles over to the S/M shipyards", then made a mod where you could order individual ships in S/M shipyards instead of buying them. This effectively solved the problem of DeVries shipyards eating too much. To achieve this, that mod introduced a new ware called "Ship Parts". It's just the same as the one we have now!

I think the higher ups are just trying to integrate that mod into the New Frontiers mod in an attempt to overhaul the entire game.

I am not sure if the original uni-prod author is here working for New Frontiers. If that's the case, well, we can't simply convince away the sentimental value of the uni-prod method. So, yeah, a gridlock.

Or... *deep chaotic voice intensifies* we could fork this, give credits, and make this mod our own... (Isn't this what New Frontiers did? Ripping off from CWIR?)

EDIT:
Suspicion confirmed. There is this very obsolete mod, [url=https://www.nexusmods.com/xrebirth/mods/350]Build Shipyards[url], which is one of the very many founding blocks of New Frontiers (damn, that's a lot of history going on here), that introduced the concept of Ship Parts. Build Shipyards integrated Build Small Ships into itself (Build Small Ships does NOT have Ship Parts), and was later adopted by Conquest and War in Rebirth (CWIR), which was then succeeded by CWIR: The New Frontiers (this mod).

So... yeah......... the original author of the uni-prod method is indeed indirectly contributing to this mod, though he very likely did not expect it. Sentimental values, yall.
Why are we coming up with theories about this like it is some grand conspiracy? First of all, Build shipyards is not the founding block of new frontiers nor did it have anything to do with ship parts. Berserk Knight originally created Build shipyards, later he gave me permission to maintain it. I then scrapped it completely and created a whole new shipyard mod called Player shipyards which was no longer just a capital shipyard that could build capital ships. I expanded it, added in the ability to build small ships (spoke with egosoft to change the hard coding in small shipyards so they wouldn't spew out endless small ships from player stations, which is the NPC station behavior) I then expanded the stations, created many new ships, etc. That was it's own mod.

I then created a mod called World War X which is the basic foundation of CWIR, along with Rubini's mod (which I forgot the name). Only Rubini and I built CWIR, with a few people helping here and there throughout but mostly small contributions or help with code. Some more than others obviously (Marvin helped us streamline things and fix bugs, etc.) World War X included my mod player shipyards, but the real core of WWX was the awesome movement code which allowed all ships to travel throughout the universe, fight and trade, etc. Alongside Rubini, we created CWIR which had so many things I can't even list, most of which the both of us created together. CWIR is the basic foundation of NF, but the biggest change in NF was the aspect of ship parts which was sort of the idea that got us started with NF. It has nothing to do with the other ship parts idea which wasn't even any one particular person's idea. Lots of people had the idea to do something like this but no one got it to work. Also, faction functional wallets, etc. was another big idea which was also being thrown around which we tried in NF. I don't think you really appreciate the amount of work that went into these mods and the amount of groundbreaking new ideas/concepts we came up with and were able to get working. Just look at the feature list of CWIR, who do you think made all those things?

Vectorial1024
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Vectorial1024 » Mon, 5. Nov 18, 04:37

BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:10
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Fri, 2. Nov 18, 19:34
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:41
Or... *deep chaotic voice intensifies* we could fork this, give credits, and make this mod our own... (Isn't this what New Frontiers did? Ripping off from CWIR?)
Is this a joke? You do realize that CWIR is my mod and so is this? The credits are for people who contributed. Most of those contributions were very small ones but credit must still be given even if the contribution was just a small bit of code out of respect. I am the one who did the most work, followed by Rubini and then Marvin. Marvin has been maintaining this mod but on his own time and with whatever effort he wants to put in and he is the only person who has my permission at this time to work on the mod. As I already said, this mod was always meant to be a WIP. Whether it ever becomes a full or finished mod is for us to decide.
I must apologize for this ruckus that I have caused. I was joking back then; that's why I italicized the whole line.

I see now. While it seems many people have contributed to this mod (and its predecessors) they have contributed a rather small portion of the features. I had the wrong impression that those people back then contributed to major parts of the mod, so it seemed to me that the mod entered a long state of hiatus.
Computer Science student, reporting for duty. College gon be tough, so no need to be rush.

Vectorial1024
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Vectorial1024 » Mon, 5. Nov 18, 04:55

BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 3. Nov 18, 01:52
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:41
Thufar wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 02:20
...

I think the original purpose is defeated already. Might it be time to re-think this concept?

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Thufar (soon to be nicknamed Debby Downer)
Rethinking this concept is, IMO, a bit difficult. (Not that I don't want to; there's another factor supporting the uni-parts method)

As a matter of fact, players are able to buy S/M ships at shipyards only after the 2.X update (forgot exactly which update).

Then, there is this problem that the DeVries shipyard would consume too much resources. The reason is that while the L/XL cradles can sit around all day without doing anything/consuming anything, the S/M shipyards can't; they have to consume resources until they run out of resources to make ships or run out of space to store S/M ships.

And then there is this guy who said "well screw this Imma just implement the BTO behavior of L/XL cradles over to the S/M shipyards", then made a mod where you could order individual ships in S/M shipyards instead of buying them. This effectively solved the problem of DeVries shipyards eating too much. To achieve this, that mod introduced a new ware called "Ship Parts". It's just the same as the one we have now!

I think the higher ups are just trying to integrate that mod into the New Frontiers mod in an attempt to overhaul the entire game.

I am not sure if the original uni-prod author is here working for New Frontiers. If that's the case, well, we can't simply convince away the sentimental value of the uni-prod method. So, yeah, a gridlock.

Or... *deep chaotic voice intensifies* we could fork this, give credits, and make this mod our own... (Isn't this what New Frontiers did? Ripping off from CWIR?)

EDIT:
Suspicion confirmed. There is this very obsolete mod, [url=https://www.nexusmods.com/xrebirth/mods/350]Build Shipyards[url], which is one of the very many founding blocks of New Frontiers (damn, that's a lot of history going on here), that introduced the concept of Ship Parts. Build Shipyards integrated Build Small Ships into itself (Build Small Ships does NOT have Ship Parts), and was later adopted by Conquest and War in Rebirth (CWIR), which was then succeeded by CWIR: The New Frontiers (this mod).

So... yeah......... the original author of the uni-prod method is indeed indirectly contributing to this mod, though he very likely did not expect it. Sentimental values, yall.
Why are we coming up with theories about this like it is some grand conspiracy? First of all, Build shipyards is not the founding block of new frontiers nor did it have anything to do with ship parts. Berserk Knight originally created Build shipyards, later he gave me permission to maintain it. I then scrapped it completely and created a whole new shipyard mod called Player shipyards which was no longer just a capital shipyard that could build capital ships. I expanded it, added in the ability to build small ships (spoke with egosoft to change the hard coding in small shipyards so they wouldn't spew out endless small ships from player stations, which is the NPC station behavior) I then expanded the stations, created many new ships, etc. That was it's own mod.

I then created a mod called World War X which is the basic foundation of CWIR, along with Rubini's mod (which I forgot the name). Only Rubini and I built CWIR, with a few people helping here and there throughout but mostly small contributions or help with code. Some more than others obviously (Marvin helped us streamline things and fix bugs, etc.) World War X included my mod player shipyards, but the real core of WWX was the awesome movement code which allowed all ships to travel throughout the universe, fight and trade, etc. Alongside Rubini, we created CWIR which had so many things I can't even list, most of which the both of us created together. CWIR is the basic foundation of NF, but the biggest change in NF was the aspect of ship parts which was sort of the idea that got us started with NF. It has nothing to do with the other ship parts idea which wasn't even any one particular person's idea. Lots of people had the idea to do something like this but no one got it to work. Also, faction functional wallets, etc. was another big idea which was also being thrown around which we tried in NF. I don't think you really appreciate the amount of work that went into these mods and the amount of groundbreaking new ideas/concepts we came up with and were able to get working. Just look at the feature list of CWIR, who do you think made all those things?
Again, the long lines of history... When I tried to explain things to Thufar (which I probably should not, since I don't know the official statement), I found the history difficult to be processed, so I had to come up with a way to interpret them. And those had been my short-sighted interpretations.

As a new-comer to this forum, while I know you guys have contributed much to this mod, I had no idea exactly how much effort that you guys have devoted to this mod over the many years. Now that I have read the official explanation of stuff, I am sorry to have offended you with my ignorance, BlackRain.

Allow me to take my leave to cool my head off. I'll see if I could be of any help in the future.

Meanwhile, there remains this question that we have raised: are the Ship Parts in the current version(s) of this mod functioning as intended? Or are the values not finalized, and will be tuned a bit (like tuning down the numbers)?
Computer Science student, reporting for duty. College gon be tough, so no need to be rush.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Tue, 6. Nov 18, 02:16

It's not a big deal. As for whether ship parts are working as intended or not is Marvin's area of expertise since he has worked on that particular aspect the most. Since X4 is coming out soon, I don't feel the need to continue to work on this honestly. I want to see what X4 brings to the table and see if the code is similar to Rebirth, which I suspect it might be. If so, perhaps we can bring some of the features of CWIR to X4 or something similar.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Drewgamer » Tue, 6. Nov 18, 16:59

BlackRain wrote:
Tue, 6. Nov 18, 02:16
[...]Since X4 is coming out soon, I don't feel the need to continue to work on this honestly. [...]
Agreed, and it's less than a month away. Time would probably be better spend squashing bugs at this point, at least until the dust around X4 settles.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by iforgotmysocks » Thu, 8. Nov 18, 19:53

Posted something on discord yesturday, altho i think it might make more sense to post it here. ^^

"I gave new frontier a try aswell yesturday and was a little confused about a few points:

1. The HV Capital Shipyard seems to have disappeared, or maybe i just didn't notice a new location.

2. The modules constructing the new shipparts and weapon parts seem to do funny things. In Devries i watched a weapon part module produce 180 normal shipparts in a cycle and for the next it switched back to weapon parts. However i didn't check if it was a naming issue of the goods only or if the actuall wrong parts were produced.
https://i.imgur.com/i6KzSWm.png

3. Aquireing blueprints with an architect didn't work while being docked on a station. Only tried a single station so maybe it wasn't a station that could be blueprinted.

Other than that it seemed pretty well thought out. Gonna keep playing it for a while."
Last edited by iforgotmysocks on Thu, 8. Nov 18, 21:14, edited 2 times in total.

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