Trump

[BugMeister]

Trump..

[fiksal]

Trump..

We all watch the same sources, we all know exactly what Trump is. And if someone forgets, he reminds us this every day. I am not sure what's the argument here really.

Is Trump a monster? Are white nationalists and white supremacists, or are they just rotten? Dont matter to me which word we use.

[Bishop149]

Trump..

We all watch the same sources, we all know exactly what Trump is. And if someone forgets, he reminds us this every day. I am not sure what's the argument here really.

Is Trump a monster? Are white nationalists and white supremacists, or are they just rotten? Dont matter to me which word we use.

This is what staggers me about this line of argument.

Other politicians are subtle, they distract, talk in half truths, double speak, dog whistles, non-commitments etc etc. With such people the "You have just misunderstood them" line is at least plausible, their very way of speaking is designed to give them this armour of plausible deniability.
Not so with Trump, he engages in such things superficially (probably when told to by others) but more often than not he clearly an unambiguously displays EXACTLY what and who he is on a near minute by minute basis. And yet people will STILL grant him the grace of being misunderstood.
I'll give him this much, he was absolutely right when he said he could shoot someone in broad daylight and not lose one iota of support from certain demographics. . . . in fact he'd probably pick up a bit.

[Hank001]

Bishop149:

I'll give him this much, he was absolutely right when he said he could shoot someone in broad daylight and not lose one iota of support from certain demographics. . . . in fact he'd probably pick up a bit.

Truth is that the "Republican" (Quotes because they are now really the Trump Nationalist Party) lawmakers have little or no control over him because he goes off on anybody who attempts to contradict, disagree or even look at him wrong. They are scared he'll finally go off the deep end and force them to evoke the 25th Amendment and all look like idiots for letting a madman loose in 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I'd imagine his "I love me, ain't I great?" press conference debacle yesterday had them chewing their nails because he's starting to show his true colors and loosing some of his fear of confontation. If he's finally growing a pair he's apt to start butting heads with them even if they are tip-toeing around him like a live bomb with a hair trigger.

Now Trump knows as soon as the new congress is installed next year he's toast Mueller or no Mueller. One look at his tax records might be enough, so he's got to make some serious moves before January. If he can quash the Mueller probe before it can get to him and his then that leaves making sure that the Democrat controlled congress either never comes to be or is too scared to touch him. Make no mistake, he's very much an animal backed into a corner and the next two months are going to get nasty. You're going to see some unprecidented dirtiness. But, the more and harder he fights and lashes out the more fuel he's adding to the fire building under him.

[Observe]

Is Trump a monster? Are white nationalists and white supremacists, or are they just rotten? Dont matter to me which word we use.

How about the word "human". That's what they are. That's what we all are. We are all products of nature. If we hate a person, we are hating nature and that means we are suffering from self-loathing and only making things worse. Nothing wrong with recognizing hatred, but let's not lower ourselves by partaking of that poison ourselves.

It's a violent universe, full of destruction and the misery of suffering all around. That's a fact. Now, what do we do about it? Do we roll in the garbage and offal of hatred, or do we see it for what it is and look for a way out of it?

I am sorry if my words offend. They are not directed at anyone in particular. Thanks.

[Morkonan]

...Is Trump a monster? Are white nationalists and white supremacists, or are they just rotten? Dont matter to me which word we use.

If you want to be guilty of falling into the same trap that some very fervent Trump supporters may have fallen into, then this is the line of thinking you should take.

He's not a "monster." He's just incredibly Trumpish... Absolutely, he has flaws that, IMO, make him unworthy of the office. But, it seems the longer that he's in office, the more extreme the opinions against him get. We have to take the same care there as we do when criticizing any opposing opinions - Stick to the facts, what happened, what is in evidence, and don't jump feet-first into the sea of radically polarized opinion. And, of course, don't dehumanize people for their beliefs. No matter how obnoxious or repulsive their beliefs are, they're still "human." Clansmen/women/whatever/ are human, too. They eat, poop, have babies and love their families... but are horribly misguided.

Trump is a man-child who is apparently used to being an Emperor and doesn't understand why that longer works.

PS - Counter to what some on the far-left are trying to say, a white person who is a "nationalist" is not, necessarily, a racist. Left-wing propaganda is trying to redefine "white" "nationalists" as "White Nationalists" in an effort to present a more outrageous case against Trump. Being a "nationalist" is bad enough, IMO, but there's no need to start throwing images of the KKK at it.

[RegisterMe]

Though I do wonder why he describes himself as a nationalist rather than, say, a patriot. The word "nationalist" has much more negative baggage associated with it.....

EDIT: And he, or at least his staff, can't be ignorant of that.

[Hank001]

RegisterMe posed;

And he, or at least his staff, can't be ignorant of that.

Hardly. Trump and his minions found it the perfect dog whistle. That way he "Nationalism" was so far off the dictionary as to be absurd and it really rang all the redneck bells and set every liberal's teeth on edge. So millions heard it, got off their tractors and out of their pickup trucks long enough to load up their guns and stood on their porches waiting for those mythical hoards of liberal mobs and caravan immigrants to show up in their yards so they could have an excuse to shoot em' dead.

All I can say is it worked and Trump's 100 excursions to a fro from his, "Love Me" rallies probably only cost us a billion or so since you KNOW he didn't pay for it and he thinks everybody elses money is his piggy bank to raid at will.

Ten years ago I'd have said jingoism and demagoguery were dead concepts. Seems Trump dug them up from the grave (or simply called them up from Hell) and breathed new life into them. Zeig Hiel... Oops sorry, Lock Her Up...

[fiksal]

How about the word "human". That's what they are. That's what we all are. We are all products of nature.

We have many colorful words in all our languages, what's the benefit of not using them and sticking to generic " human"?

Or is your point same as Morks, not to dehumanize them?

He's not a "monster." He's just incredibly Trumpish...

The first one is a high mark summing up people's perceptions. The second one sounds like a childish name for someone who is just a silly and friendly.

I mean, we can just meet in the middle and call him "evil". No hate or emotions on my part, just looking for a good word.


Speaking of dehumanizing though. I am not 100% sure this is a concern, - am I wrong?

Left-wing propaganda is trying to redefine "white" "nationalists" as "White Nationalists" in an effort to present a more outrageous case against Trump. Being a "nationalist" is bad enough, IMO, but there's no need to start throwing images of the KKK at it.

Fair, that happens. It's incredibly hard to separate them though, and figure out where they disagree and how it's relevant.

EDIT: or in other words, I am not sure I've met any "white" nationalists who were explicitly not exclusive

[BugMeister]

authoritarianism in action - Trump reveals his true nature
this man is full of hatred and fear, and unwilling to listen to anyone who contradicts his idiocy..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Emv7p-DRwQ

- he's completely unstable, and therefore unfit for office..
- SUCH a nasty person..!!

[Masterbagger]

If you make President Trump a monster in your own mind he is going to live there rent free forever. Stop doing that and let that personal investment in attacking him and the people who voted for him go.

He didn't make Trump a monster. Trump has shown himself to be a monster. Repeatedly, and proudly.

There are millions of people who do not feel that way and they are currently directing the course of our government. No amount of hatred toward President Trump is going to change that he is the President. The only way to prevent this man from being reelected is to determine what it is that people who voted for him want from government. Democrats will not achieve this. They are stuck on hating President Trump and they can't move past that bias to a point where they could negotiate effectively with the man who literally wrote the book on making deals.

[Observe]

Words changed in following quote:

There are millions of people who do not feel that way and they are currently directing the course of our government. No amount of hatred toward President Trump/Obama is going to change that he is the President. The only way to prevent this man from being reelected is to determine what it is that people who voted for him want from government. Democrats/Republicans will not achieve this. They are stuck on hating President Trump/Obama and they can't move past that bias

I never ceases to amuse me, how everything you say is exactly the same as what your opposition says; with name/party words changed. I can't help but wonder if you see your enemy when you look in the mirror. Surely the irony of your position does not escape you?

[RegisterMe]

.....the man who literally wrote the book on making deals.

Errr, no, he didn't. His ghost writer, Tony Schwartz, literally did.

[Observe]

.....the man who literally wrote the book on making deals.

Errr, no, he didn't. His ghost writer, Tony Schwartz, literally did.

Good counterpoint RegisterMe.
Although in truth, Tony only wrote half of it and he is on record as regretting his participation. Moreover, on the basis of having spent 18 months virtually camping out with Trump, Mr Schwartz thinks that Trump is in full meltdown. He goes on to say:

“I believe the republic is at enormous risk that goes far beyond what most journalists are comfortable saying and what the general public therefore – it doesn’t really fully understand,” he said. He added: “We are in a true emergency.”

I am afraid your would-be emperor hero has no clothes.

[Bishop149]

The only way to prevent this man from being reelected is to determine what it is that people who voted for him want from government.

Not necessary, because Trump is not going to be able to give those people what they want (and nor, incidentally, will anyone else).
Firstly because what they want is almost impossible*, and secondly because Mr Trump (the arch capitalist) has ZERO interest in changing an single damn thing that would benefit anyone except himself.
The only substantive thing he has done in office is to give his own class and massive wealth boost, funded by taking things away from the American people.
It might take a long time for the blinkers to fall off these "millions of people" but I'd wager they will eventually, and then backlash will be huge.

. . . . the man who literally wrote the book on making deals.

I would suggest you read that book, understand the Trumpian philosophy on "deal making", how he has applied it across his career and what his objectives have been.
Then ask yourself: "Is this a man I'd trust to run my country"

*Or at the very least it is not possible without those same people paying the price of enduring an extended period of hardship and conflict whilst the economy is torn down and restructured, which they won't.

[Hank001]

Bishop149 suggested;

I would suggest you read that book, understand the Trumpian philosophy on "deal making", how he has applied it across his career and what his objectives have been.
Then ask yourself: "Is this a man I'd trust to run my country"

I have. Now apply Trump's philosophy to the present "Department of Justice". Matthew George Whitaker the new "Criminal in Charge" of the DOJ (Uncontitutionally appointed) Was put in place by Trump using a loophole in the law. A lawyer and boardmember of a company that was shut down for illegal practices whose only reason for being given his present position is that he kisses Trump's ...ring and is on record for forwarding ways to strangle the Mueller probe. That's exactly Trump's business philosopy. Lie, cheat, steal and ALWAYS look for loopholes and dirty tricks.

Of course suggesting to someone they read "The Art Of The Deal" is one thing, but thinking they will draw the right conclusions from the reading is another. Millions read "Mein Kampf" and came away saying the author had the right idea.

[BugMeister]

yo, Donny - word on the street..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWX9w2CPXm0

Trump..

- a THOROUGHLY nasty man, in a thoroughly nasty family:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwsqF14wUOM

[Morkonan]

...I mean, we can just meet in the middle and call him "evil". No hate or emotions on my part, just looking for a good word.

I don't know...

I find myself calling him "evil," especially when I'm confronted by one of his lies or hateful remarks. But, is he truly "evil?" Some people would apply the "Duck Hypothesis," here. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck", etc... But, life isn't always that simple. In the philosophical sense, with my own religious convictions, I can not judge "him" as "evil." It''s not my place.

I can, however, judge his actions and like any human I can attribute a plausible motivation to them. So, in that light, he seems to be a narcissist, brash and overly confident in some false image he has created for himself, likely long-served by his lifelong position as a "mogul" with toadies serving his every whim and top-feeding enablers keeping his empire alive despite his personality.

In casual passing, I have made comparisons of him with "evil." It's difficult to get across the spirit of how I may feel, otherwise. So, yes, I have used the word. But, in all seriousness, I can't judge that. I can only qualify what I see in his actions. And, sometimes, those appear to be motivated by the opposite of "good."

Speaking of dehumanizing though. I am not 100% sure this is a concern, - am I wrong?

I think we must always guard against creating "the perfect enemy" in our minds in response to our own outrage or frustration. The perfect enemy is, ideally, not human and not something we can empathize with. Once we find that perfect enemy, we have an immediate outlet to direct our unreserved anger towards without any restraint. Imagine how effective such an enemy is as a potential target for us to finally give expression to all the feelings we've had to hold back. Once we create that in a person, they can be seen as capable of being guilty of anything, no matter how nonsensical or absurd. And, we'll accuse them of that, to be sure, since we can now act without restraint...

Dehumanizing people is always a concern. Trump is a human being, no more and no less. If one holds to that ideology, then one is much less susceptible to running afoul of the outrageous claims made by those who have already jumped over that particular cliff. That doesn't mean, however, that humans aren't capable of more extreme and absurd actions than people would normally expect... Add money, will, power, etc to someone who wishes to pursue an absurd course of action and their results in achieving it will be much more likely.

...Fair, that happens. It's incredibly hard to separate them though, and figure out where they disagree and how it's relevant.

EDIT: or in other words, I am not sure I've met any "white" nationalists who were explicitly not exclusive

Have you met any Black Nationalists? Maybe there are some black Ugandans that are sincerely Nationalists. So, have you met them and are they racists? IIRC, there was a sort of Black Nationalist movement in the US in the 60's and early 70's. They were certainly racists. But, then again, they wanted to create their own nation, so it's difficult to really define the whole "nationalist" part.

Our historical legacy tends to favor nations that have large concentrations of a particular ethnicity or race. That makes it easy for most to identify someone who is likely "one of us." A strongly xenophobic or racist ideology associated with "nationalism" is at one end of the extreme spectrum. It is far from inseparable and there are equally effective and extreme versions of nationalism that aren't "racist." (I am in no way defending extreme nationalists... Just calling for people to separate the idea of extreme racism from the actual definition of "nationalism" as a term.)

There are millions of people who do not feel that way and they are currently directing the course of our government. No amount of hatred toward President Trump is going to change that he is the President. The only way to prevent this man from being reelected is to determine what it is that people who voted for him want from government. Democrats will not achieve this. They are stuck on hating President Trump and they can't move past that bias to a point where they could negotiate effectively with the man who literally wrote the book on making deals.

I agree with your estimations of Democratic "strategy." But, it's the same general strategy that both parties use, so they're not alone in their choosing of a course that is generally empty of any actual "goals" other than "the other guy losing."

But, the Democrats keep showing up to elections and in office with... nothing. They seem to be aimless, wishy-washy, navel gazers that expend a tremendous amount of energy wringing their hands. And, once elected, if they get that lucky, they seem surprised that they actually have an office... I'm speaking more to members of the House than other offices. Those people seem to usually ride a wave of some sort, like flotsam cast upon the beach of the House of Representatives.

"Well, here I am! Now what? I know! I'll join some group or coalition or something and that will give me a sense of direction other than walking around in circles and wringing my hands..."

Uh...no. People acting together to go nowhere and do nothing generally go nowhere and do nothing, no matter if they were elected to a political office or not.

By the way, I think you probably expect this, so here it is - Trump didn't write that book. It has his name on it, just like any number of buildings built by investors who are paying Trump to use his name. But, he didn't build those, either.

[BugMeister]

Uh...no. People acting together to go nowhere and do nothing generally go nowhere and do nothing, no matter if they were elected to a political office or not.

- are you being serious?

[Observe]

I find myself calling him "evil," especially when I'm confronted by one of his lies or hateful remarks. But, is he truly "evil?" Some people would apply the "Duck Hypothesis," here. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck", etc... But, life isn't always that simple. In the philosophical sense, with my own religious convictions, I can not judge "him" as "evil." It''s not my place.

I don't think Trump is "evil" in the Biblical context. However, he is anathema to kindness, honesty and other characteristics favorable to a leader of people. Society needs to be protected from people like Trump. Overt disdain for the law, lack of compassion toward those who suffer and blatant unabashed racism are not emblematic of positive, inspiring leadership.

Every effort needs to be taken to constrain, limit and if necessary, imprison this man. I am confident that there are those who are seeking to do exactly that. Democrats are now in a position to control the House and the onus to pluck-out this miscreant from our midst, will fall on them and their Republican colleague who are willing to break ranks from this unsavory character.