[WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

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Kane Hart
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Kane Hart » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 05:07

Spawned Ships keep Spawning. I hope someone is able to tell me what "spawns" then ships. I actually been just running the Mod Pack in the background now waiting on what causes it or what it means. I just worry that something might be broken as from what I understand ships don't or should not spawn after the first creation of the game. But it seems to spawn another 1000 ships every 24 hours or so.

https://i.imgur.com/z0xnkWe.png

conquestor
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by conquestor » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 05:50

I think spawning doesn't mean created out of thin air, I think it just means ships that are added to faction pools on being created in docks etc.

A way to test this is to go to Epssilon lowlands (https://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/universe/ ... /sector-4/) It should be owned by Sovereign Syndicate, and they'll likely only have a shipyard (and maybe a few stations) and 2-3 capitals. Kill/capture them all, and sit in there with SETA overnight. Odds are you'll never see more being spawned.

That being said, Sovereign syndicate seems critically weak every game I've played so far, and it always serves as my place to get a free trade ship + CV :lol:

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by bitvoid » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 07:39

Thufar wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 15:25
I am afraid it's much worse than that.

In an effort to help, as I have zero programming skills, in my game, the HOA Albion Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) in Gemstone Manufacture has two weapons part production facilities, each consuming 24,840 energy cells and 900 plasma flow regulators to produce 180 ship parts (I presume these are supposed to be weaponsparts) all per hour. The four production runs that produce 12 ship parts (presumably correct) requires a host of different resources of which 12 plasma flow regulators are required per hour (this consumption seems more correct). That's 1,848 per hour for this one station. No wonder there's hardly any plasma flow regulators in my X-verse.

Stranger is the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) I built has 3 - 180 production runs and 3 - 12 production runs.

And stranger yet is... while looking at a HOA Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Part) in Gemstone Manufacture at the production run of the 12 unit runs, I paused the game to go do something in real life. When I came back to play again and escaped to Station Menu, now it says 4-180 Ship Part runs, 1-12 and 1-16. To summarize, this station went from 2-180 and 4-12 production runs to 4-180, 1-12 and 1-16 production runs ( presumably as a result of a production run completion).

It seems the variable production runs of the template Civ Ship Parts Lot has transferred to the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Part) station. It seems to me the fixed production facilities of most stations need to be implemented.

And while I was editing this post (in preview), this HOA Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Part) in Gemstone Manufacture received a delivery of plasma flow regulators. With the resumption of production, the Station Menu reverted to 2-200 Ship Part (Weapons), 3-12 Ship Part and 1-16 Ship Part, with the two weapons parts production runs requiring varying resources depending on which production run you viewed, each changing each time I viewed them. When I looked at the Ship Part (Weapons) production runs, they changed to display "Ship parts".

Hope this helps,
Thufar
I believe you're missing an important piece of the puzzle here. All production modules on the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) alternate between 2 production methods. First, they do a rather slow (and comparatively cheap) production of ship/weapon parts (production method "Albion"). After that, they do the quick and expensive "Assemble" cycle for ship parts.

In your case, it appears some production modules were stuck on the "Assemble" method which makes it look like they are using absolutely excessive amounts of resources. Once they finish that cycle though you'll see that they start a much less expensive production of the "Albion" method for ship/weapon parts.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the plasma flow regulator consumption needs adjustment but it's not by any means as bad as you made it out to be.

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 09:05

Maybe someone notice that the Shippart -thing is only an addon -> you don't need to use it if is so terrible imbalancend in your opinion

maybe it will possible to lower ship-construction-times under sippart method once later

if someone like to help:
one thing may to bring a new station type into game that make required wares (and/)or improve code of station-section (just for clearence existing code, not dozen of files

actually station-selection of Corps is very basic/static, best would be if encyklopedia data may accessible, atm the (best) code part only watch for similar stations and check types of wares and if they are required in the buildarea

alternitive a GOD Module that references what station is required most at sector/cluster - because in case factions build right stations it should not necessary to discuss requirements of wares

to build hightech stuff you may use the smallship-complex and remove shipproduction

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Vectorial1024 » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 13:51

OK. No more fooling around. Let me get to my point straight and clear.

So, Marvin Martian, you said:
Marvin Martian wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 09:05
Maybe someone notice that the Shippart -thing is only an addon -> you don't need to use it if is so terrible imbalancend in your opinion
However, BlackRain said this at the very very top at page 1:
BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 18. Feb 17, 22:07
2) This will have to undergo extensive testing because we are introducing a new and very important ware, "Ship parts" which will be used in ship construction. These "Ship parts" will be made in a variety of different ways depending on certain things.
So, are Ship Parts optional or what? Please tell me I did not waste an entire week in August attempting to fix something not important.

Also consider that:
BlackRain wrote:
Sat, 18. Feb 17, 22:07
Currently, Marvin Martian and I are working on a new mod. [...]
Marvin Martian, are you contradicting BlackRain? Aren't you two supposed to have some agreement on what's going on?

EDIT:

Perhaps I went overboard here. But my main point is: could someone explain the Role of Ship Parts? Like, is it needed?
Last edited by Vectorial1024 on Mon, 22. Oct 18, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.
Computer Science student, reporting for duty. College gon be tough, so no need to be rush.

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Kane Hart
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Kane Hart » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 15:28

I'm pretty sure Marvin Martian is the only one working on it and if he was not this project be dead from the looks of all the commits on Github. I'm actually more ticked off with Marvin for not making a new thread or getting some sort of strange merge over to give him the first thread so he can edit it.

The wording your going on pretty much tells you this not even a mod yet but something in the making down the road. So it means you can't complain about it due to how your complaining what is written on post 1 well in post 1 there is no mod yet ;)

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 16:39

shipparts was intendet as connection to SY and faster build ships (one day i will update ware.xml with lower production times, actually the times are vanilla), and to get other factions good gains from ship-constructions (like in case player can't/won't own a SY)
and as a way to produce "Parts" in each corner of the Galaxy it is possible, instead of deliver individual wares to the shipyards

BR has the idea to extend it to CVs and Stationsbuilding too (won't ever happend - plan is from very old days) - BR was builder of CWIR, here i helped out with some changes, one big thing was to destroy replace each station, so an main overhaul of the map was required -i started coding, add old CWIR stuff but finally BR haven't had much time to test or code, so i release for "public testing" now we are here - last update at frontpage was from an Mod to add the link to github, the text is mostly unchanged sind ages, so some points are very hard outdated

Now there was a not easy way up here with Shipparts (i'm happe someone have a better idea for some problems, but it doesn't help to post some strange storys without any idea whats going on - some solutions are simply not helpfull if you know all problems not only the one you like to fix) and not everything working like expected, so i need some workarounds, but from beginning SP was a WIP modification, so NF will run without it, but slightliy different (factions need to buy ships from card, not custom preferation)

In my opionion the Economy is weak, and the low-tech solution for find new station is not what it has to be - to be in debt the point of CPU usage and the point each station produce different wares not each only one
so it may work to add into Shippart Mod another new station who can balance the lack of wares - but it won't help to change wares of SP-Production (it is a part of an regular capitalship)
Yes it is more expensive finally, smaller capitals are much more expensive like without parts, but who cares - at an very early point you get so much money that won't care

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Kane Hart
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Kane Hart » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 17:40

conquestor wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 05:50
I think spawning doesn't mean created out of thin air, I think it just means ships that are added to faction pools on being created in docks etc.

A way to test this is to go to Epssilon lowlands (https://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/universe/ ... /sector-4/) It should be owned by Sovereign Syndicate, and they'll likely only have a shipyard (and maybe a few stations) and 2-3 capitals. Kill/capture them all, and sit in there with SETA overnight. Odds are you'll never see more being spawned.

That being said, Sovereign syndicate seems critically weak every game I've played so far, and it always serves as my place to get a free trade ship + CV :lol:
lol, thanks for the info hmm interesting.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:24

Thufar says, "Oooh, some interesting posts lately."

I have some RL things that call, but I'll be back. I think I have some foundational questions that may need/want to be answered regarding this whole ship parts thing. Again, I will be back.

In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?

Oh, and as I peruse the ware xml I don't easily find the wares for ship part or ship part weapons. Can someone give me the nomenclature for those part names in the programming? Or, if not in wares xml, where then?

Oh, the clock, time to go,
Thufar

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by bitvoid » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:53

Thufar wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:24
Thufar says, "Oooh, some interesting posts lately."

I have some RL things that call, but I'll be back. I think I have some foundational questions that may need/want to be answered regarding this whole ship parts thing. Again, I will be back.

In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?
I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.
Thufar wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:24
Oh, and as I peruse the ware xml I don't easily find the wares for ship part or ship part weapons. Can someone give me the nomenclature for those part names in the programming? Or, if not in wares xml, where then?
You have to look at the wares.xml in mm_uspprod/libraries. Ship parts have the ware id shippart while ship part weapons have the ware id shippartcomp.

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Drewgamer
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Drewgamer » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 20:26

Thufar wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:24
[...]
In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?
[...]
bitvoid wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:53
I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.
Yup, the backslash "\" here is used as an "escape" character so that parts of text are read as plain text. In this case, it's to allow the parentheses to be used in the plain text for "Ship part (Weapons)" :)
A signature will go here eventually?

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 01:57

bitvoid wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 19:53
I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.
Hektos wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 20:26
Yup, the backslash "\" here is used as an "escape" character so that parts of text are read as plain text. In this case, it's to allow the parentheses to be used in the plain text for "Ship part (Weapons)" :)
Thanks guys, I now know infinitely more about modding than I did this morning. Therefore, today is a good day (I learned something - retaining it is a whole different story :lol: ).
bitvoid wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 07:39
Thufar wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 15:25
I am afraid it's much worse than that. Thufar blabs on and on about what he observes in game...
I believe you're missing an important piece of the puzzle here.
Hehe, that's probably the understatement of this whole thread :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: .
bitvoid wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 07:39
All production modules on the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) alternate between 2 production methods. First, they do a rather slow (and comparatively cheap) production of ship/weapon parts (production method "Albion"). After that, they do the quick and expensive "Assemble" cycle for ship parts.

In your case, it appears some production modules were stuck on the "Assemble" method which makes it look like they are using absolutely excessive amounts of resources. Once they finish that cycle though you'll see that they start a much less expensive production of the "Albion" method for ship/weapon parts.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the plasma flow regulator consumption needs adjustment but it's not by any means as bad as you made it out to be.
Thank you for the clarification. It appears that is, at least generally, what is going on in my game.

Thank you also for pointing me to the appropriate place to find nomenclature for ship parts.

Got some studying to do.
Thufar

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41

Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 19:25
Before any of you begin to question why I know this much, allow me to disclaim myself: I have done things I should not have.
Apologies Vectorial1024 if I've caused you to step in something that you shouldn't have. I'm not sure what it is you did and, if you don't mind, can you pm me what you did so I can learn not to do it?
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 19:25
Step by step...
… and thank you for patiently catching me up on the history and what happened. It helps.

So, as I began my quest of learning how to play TNF, Thufar asked "Self, why did they choose to make the two ship parts in Civ Ship Parts Lot?'" Answer, if I understand it correctly, it seems it was needed very early on to make the station work, as opposed producing absolutely nothing. That make sense except, vanilla Civ Ship Parts Lots work now. Conclusion, the two ship parts don't "have" to be made at the Civ Ship Parts Lot.

bitvoid wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 07:39
All production modules on the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) alternate between 2 production methods. First, they do a rather slow (and comparatively cheap) production of ship/weapon parts (production method "Albion"). After that, they do the quick and expensive "Assemble" cycle for ship parts.
Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.
Vectorial1024 wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 19:25
Thufar wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 16:10
So, Cat #3) Why base the shippart production out of a Civ Ship Parts Lot. It looks like the major obstacle to using this station is the variability in the production runs. Why not use any of the other stations with six production runs. It would have stable production runs. Give the new station a new name, re-categorize the production runs, re-allocate the resource consumption, and viola! I assume I'm missing something, as this hasn't been done - or is this too easy?
I'm not sure if I understand correctly.
Ok, let me try again.

...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming. It is also assumed that part of the Ship Part production chaos (as I think Marvin Martian pointed out earlier), is because of the use of the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for production of ship parts.

So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.

Would you not then have a stable production facility?

Then...
Marvin Martian wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 09:05
if someone like to help:
one thing may to bring a new station type into game that make required wares (and/)or improve code of station-section (just for clearence existing code, not dozen of files
If I understand Marvin correctly, he's saying something similar as I'm thinking.

Regards,
Thufar

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by bitvoid » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 06:36

Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.
There being a 2 part production chain is not caused by the station being a Civ Ship Parts Lot but instead it was done intentionally by design. The Civ Ship Parts Lot could very well have production modules that only produce a single ware using the same production method over and over.

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 08:44

Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.
OL-Ships need much more weapons then other types, AL do still build them slower, but there already to much of them, so the idea to make them into Shipparts too
but feel free to add a possible suggestion for better use

similar problem actually with turrets, maybe an dedicated recycling center may possible - but thats nothing i can try
Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot.
You can produce where you want, but you may not change productions after gamestart so my options to patch stations is limited (people always cry i change position of a buildspot - so this may a solution in case the new way will solve the problem, not only for show) - i'm also not a fan of patch modules into existing stations - finally this won't solve something anyway - you may calculate in case also bigger storages too if you change the vanilla production-times/amounts

i simply try to find a way (hoefully best) to solve a problem/task and use them, without good solution i won't and can't change everything afterwards because something is not so ... whatever

the other thing is, i can't simply build stations with an GUI or something, so i may arrange each part into a station, thats only very limited - if here some people who have to much free time, feel free to build a nice complex - thats actually exceeds my possibilities of time to do this

but possible is everthing, you can use the ship-production complex (don't ask me name for) and replace ship-productions with an module of shipparts, so you have a hand full of resources still available - or simply don't use the mod i add and make an another nicer shipparts mod, where all is balanced - like i say, it is not integrated into nf

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