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RegisterMe
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Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 11:18

If this all goes wrong South Korea and Japan will feel like they've been thrown under a bus. China will think it has the upper hand in the Pacific and there's a good chance that South Korea and Japan will look to get their own nuclear deterrent (just to add to the likely response of Turkey and Saudi Arabia to an Iran going nuclear).
Gavrushka wrote:The problem with 'freedom of speech' is it makes wackos think they have something of value to say.

*WE WANT THE amtct BACK*
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Bishop149
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Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 11:44

clakclak wrote:Honestly I didn't assume I would ever see the day a republican US president says about a communist dictator that: "he loves his people."
Trump's metrics for measuring success are pretty simple, own and control as many things as possible.

He likes dictators because by his standards they are very successful, having gained near total ownership and control over entire countries all the way down to their populace.
He would LOVE to gain that kind of control over America.

If Trump actually had any kind of cohesive vision and personal morality he'd be a hugely dangerous individual, instead whilst he seems to have a dictators mindset he thankfully lacks a dictators drive and clarity of thought.
I also think he's too lazy to put the work in.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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euclid
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Post by euclid » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 13:13

Bishop149 wrote: Trump's metrics for measuring success are pretty simple, own and control as many things as possible. .....
Exactly my thoughts! He aims to "run the world" by means of economic power, money and clouts (favors, not to say extortion). It's not too difficult to get his "drift" by following the paper trails.

Cheers Euclid
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- Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Metaphysical Foundations of the Science of Nature, 4:470, 1786

Bishop149
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Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 13:28

There has been much misinformation peddled regrading the policy of separating children of illegal immigrants from theirs parents, there have also been several emotive pictures widely shared that are inaccurately credited.

I have been thus far been hesitant to form an opinion on it. . . . I mean obviously it's horrific but I'm less convinced how much of the horror is specifically attributable to the Trump administration and how much is just 'Merica!!

The twitter thread below constitutes probably the more reputable and identifiable source that I've seen in regard to the conditions the kids are being held under.

https://twitter.com/jacobsoboroff/statu ... 8293553153

The picture below, a mural on the wall of a detention centre for children is straight out of some fascist dystopian nightmare . . . . I honestly don't have the words. I mean they even translated it into Spanish, the intended audience for that message is clear.

Edit: Oh dear it appears the message is a quote from "The Art of the Deal" that refers to a delayed real estate project. Now redeployed to intimated migrants. . . . . what the hell kind of world are we living in?

Image
Last edited by Bishop149 on Thu, 14. Jun 18, 15:00, edited 1 time in total.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 14:20

Mightysword wrote:...And like I said, all of these "extraneous circumstances" - in the face of her 'principal', they did not mean a damn. And I was raised by such a woman, so you would understand my view on what is a principal seem to be very different from yours.
You are consistently misunderstanding what my principles are and do not understand what I am saying. You obviously can not interpret my words correctly. I will put it as plainly as possible -

If you adopt a principle that will never be challenged, that you will never have to actually use, it's meaningless.

If you adopt a principle blindly, that you have never actually had to establish, for yourself, its true worth, then it is worthless.

If one does not question one's own principles as they actually come into play, as one actually is forced to stand by them, to judge whether or not they are as desirable and good and whatever other reasons one uses to justify holding to them, then those principles have no merit.

If one is not willing to to change one's principles, yes I wrote "change", in the face of reality that demonstrates to one that they are false or not worth holding any longer, then one is morally blind.

You make the mistake of thinking that these statements only apply to "good" principles that people can hold. People make mistakes. People are sometimes wrong and hold to the wrong principles. If they never dare to allow their own beliefs to be challenged, how can they possibly know whether or not that belief or principle or ethic has true value for them? And, if they blindly hold to a wrong principle or a false one, how in the world can they ever change for the better if they never allow such principles to be changed?

How can anyone ever hope to be a good person if they never question themselves about what their principles are, how those principles effect other people, and whether or not the principles they currently hold are truly, actually, "good?"

If you got a piece of paper when you were born that contained a list of principle for you to follow and you never bothered to discover, for yourself, whether or not those principles were truly good or beneficial, then you're morally ignorant.

People can be wrong. If they never, ever, think it's possible they're wrong and never question themselves and their beliefs, but simply blindly follow them, they are capable of truly horrible things. And, they're capable of doing these truly horrible things all while they believe they are completely righteous in doing them.
You is you - you is Morkonan - in this particular case I'm addressing you, not a general figure of the US population. Because a lot of the thing you are displaying here, I dear hope they are not common sentiment among the 330mil of American. :)

The reason I'm asking this particular question because in your previous post, I know you kinda go back and deny it...
You "know" I would "kinda go back and deny it?" You're saying that I would lie about a friggin' post that's sitting right here on this thread?
, but two of your post heavily implied throughout that Vietnam was somehow benefit from US policy, that the embargo had a positive effect and creating change in Vietnam.
I didn't say that.

I said that, as you stated as well, once the embargo was lifted by Clinton, Vietnam benefited.

The "positive change" was that the US saw evidence that Vietnam's policy was changing to a policy that the US agreed with.

If that happens to have a benefit for the Vietnamese people, so much the better, but the objective of the embargo was to change Vietnamese policy. That is why such things are enacted and when they are successful, it is because they are successful in helping to fulfill the desires of the nation that imposes them and not for any other reason, even if great good or even great evil comes from it.

Go back and read it for yourself. I know English is not your primary language, but when you call someone a liar, you better darn well understand the language enough to be able to justify your claim.

I have also kept referring to your own apparent amazement concerning how Vietnam's economy suddenly boomed, with many seemingly positive effects.

I have repeatedly stated that it is "known" that embargoes and sanctions have negative effects on the populations of effected countries. That is why they are imposed. The objective, however, is to force a country to change whatever policy the imposing country does not agree with.

The sanctions and embargoes were not imposed because the US desired anything more than Vietnam change its policies. The "good effects" as far as the US is concerned were evident when Clinton visited, as you pointed out, and the embargoes were lifted. The positive effects for Vietnam, after that, were not a primary concern of US policy. They were only desirable in that they could further demonstrate to Vietnam's government the positive effects they could receive by changing their policy.
So I ask you that this 55 years long embargo, what had it done to change the Cuba government, what it has done to improve the Cuban life. The questions are very clear and specific, if you have the answer, give it to me. Why throw back a question at me? If I know I wouldn't have asked. ;)
They haven't had much effect on the Cuban government and have not likely benefited the Cuban people.

The original statement and subject, however, was about how nations demonstrate their values and the original demand evidence for that by the United States was answered to in the form of sanctions and embargoes.
..But here, read back what most of what you wrote mork, all the justifications that you're trying to give to me: is it for the shake of justify we do what we did, or for the shake of the people we "said" we're trying to help?
Please post where I gave you "all the justifications that I<sic> was trying to give to you."

I told you why nations enact sanctions and embargoes. I told you that the US enacted sanctions and embargoes in order to convince a nation to change its policy when other forms of diplomacy fail. I told you that every nation uses this tool. Where did I "justify" these things where I did also not ask you, directly, if you knew of a better way? And, did I also not agree that there are other means, such as closer relationships with more open and free trade that could also be used?

Were did I "justify" any of these specific sanctions and embargoes?

*sigh*, this is why earlier following the summit, after taking a peak around the internet I hear so many righteous voices it's almost deafening. Yet, I wonder deep down, do anyone actually care about the average Korean themselves, or people are just losing themselves in their own twisted sense of self-gratification and righteousness.
I don't give a darn about whoever these other people on the internet you've been peaking around at. Maybe that's why you can't seem to understand my posts? Maybe you're actually trying to have a discussion with them instead of me?

If you have a short rebuttal or statement you wish me to address, then I will do so. Other than that exception, this particular discussion is over. You are free, of course, to have it with someone else.

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 16:21

@ Bishop149

If you watched that piece of DPRK propaganda I posted you'll note how hard they hit on NK orphanages and how hard they indoctrinate those kids. And now from what you just posted I'd say, it figures. All else but government propaganda is "fake news". The message here? "Love Trump for saving you... until we dump you back you came from..." Hell of a message there eh? Hail to our Supreme Leader, Grand Marshall Trump.
The answer to life, the universe and everything:
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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 16:25

- it is said that a good man feels ashamed at least once a day..
- which makes Trump thoroughly evil and rotten to the core..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 16:56

Breaking News! New York state's Attorney General just sued the Trump Foundation (Trump & Family) for 2.8 mill for "self dealing" (Making and keeping profits from a non-profit organ)

Says he used foundation funds to pay legal bills.
Irony is Rudy Giuliani at one time held the position on NY Attorney General. Wonder whose paying Rudy's bills now eh?

Praise the name of our Great Leader Supreme Marshall Trump. :roll:
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Ketraar
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Post by Ketraar » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 17:04

Hank001 wrote:Breaking News!
Isnt this against the constitution? News are rare and fragile, going about breaking them only helps Trump and the alternative facts faction. Please stop it!

MFG

Ketraar

PS.: btw feel free to inform CNN of the same thing, thanks.

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 17:12

@ Ketraar

:rofl: Oops. Got any superglue? I'll "piece the news together" then.

With paying legal bills Trump foundation funneled money to Trump Campain too.



Happy 72nd Birthday Dear Supreme Leader Grand Marshall Trump! :cry:
The answer to life, the universe and everything:
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Bishop149
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Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 18:28

Hank001 wrote:Breaking News! New York state's Attorney General just sued the Trump Foundation (Trump & Family) for 2.8 mill for "self dealing" (Making and keeping profits from a non-profit organ)

Says he used foundation funds to pay legal bills.
She filed this suit on Mr Trumps birthday.
Just to really twist the knife. :D
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 18:34

@ Bishop149

(The singing emojis)
:mrgreen: :D :rofl: :mrgreen:
Happy Birthday 2U
Happy Birthday 2U
Happy Birthday U Bastard
I'm going 2 sue U!

Love: State of New York
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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 19:24

:lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

Mightysword
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Post by Mightysword » Thu, 14. Jun 18, 21:11

Morkonan wrote: You are consistently misunderstanding what my principles are and do not understand what I am saying. You obviously can not interpret my words correctly.
I believe I do, I don't agree, doesn't mean I don't understand. Although it's not rare these day for people to say the only reason others don't agree simply because they don't understand, because somehow believing others don't understand you is easier to accept that they don't disagree. But choose to believe what you want. Don't think it's matter at this point. Like I said, our definition our what is a principal is very different, and I will never accept yours and I doubt you will ever do mine, and let's leave it at that.
You "know" I would "kinda go back and deny it?" You're saying that I would lie about a friggin' post that's sitting right here on this thread?
No, not lying, not outright anyway. But the kind "someone said this but it's not really what they meant" kind of thing, you know, not very different than the same accusation you were throwing at me a couple page back. ;)

I don't give a darn about whoever these other people on the internet you've been peaking around at. Maybe that's why you can't seem to understand my posts? Maybe you're actually trying to have a discussion with them instead of me?

If you have a short rebuttal or statement you wish me to address, then I will do so. Other than that exception, this particular discussion is over. You are free, of course, to have it with someone else.
No, I DID specifically say I'm addressing you, didn't I? Rarely I do that, but I make the extra note of specify it this time so your question is a bit hypothetical I think. I admit, this is getting dried and we both are too "fargone" to actually 'have' a proper debate, despite what we may put on the text pretending otherwise. In another word, we're losing objectivity, and start to disagree simply for the shake of disagreeing. I hate it when it happens to myself, so let's stop. 8)

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mrbadger
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Post by mrbadger » Fri, 15. Jun 18, 11:21

At this point does it matter if Trump is found to be stealing in any way?

He seems to be, in effect is untouchable, because americans are terrified of critisizing their own president in such a way that they'd have to actually really remove one.

Sure they're ok talking about prosecuting or removing one, but actually doing it?

No freaking way are they willing to go far.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli

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