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radcapricorn





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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 13:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

X6 in 2025?.. No way. That's the year when first mentions of possible X5 would only start appearing.

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Fleabum





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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 13:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:
Creative Assembly taught me what happens when you cut content and slowly reintroduce it and expect us to be grateful.


This is exactly what they have done. Seems you're forgetting X4 is the next iteration after X3, not the next iteration of Rebirth. So when you compare X3 to X4, they have removed a lot of fundamental game features of X3 and added features tested in Rebirth, and expect us to be grateful.

I can see the point of view of people who liked Rebirth, they want Rebirth2, Rebirth was too limiting, not enough ships, not enough weapons. They now want Rebirth with new ships, weapons, stations, better economy and many of the (selected) features from X3 (they liked). Well it looks like thats what X4 will be, so they should be happy.

spankahontis wrote:
That's not Status Quo, Status Quo is sticking with the same which X3 Fanboys sadly want this game to remain and it will stagnate the franchise.


Accepting the Status Quo is also what people do when they don't speak out when they don't like something, and that's exactly what this thread is all about. The fact is that you are accepting the Status Quo by not letting players exercise their right to show they are unhappy with certain major game changes that were in X3 but removed from X4.

And you calling people X3 fanboys is a bit of a disservice. They are the avid and loyal customers that are still playing a game long after its expiry date. Not many games have so many hours spent on them after so long, Egosoft should be proud what X3 has accomplished. Will as many people still be playing Rebirth after 13 years of release? No, because at this moment in time, more people still play X3 than Rebirth.

Totally agree with you on franchise though, a franchise should be protected and nurtured and that's why Rebirth was a good way to go, a totally separate game in the same universe, this is what a franchise does.

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radcapricorn





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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 13:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

X3 didn't "accomplish". It refined and perfected. Heck, the simple fact that there were 3 of X3 tells a story. Egosoft are like overly critical artists, repainting the canvas until desired result is achieved. Who knows, perhaps there will be 7 X4?

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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 18:30    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
Graaf the ghost of X-games past.

Do you turn up on other game forums and tell people how rubbish a game is even though you don't own a copy. Just like you did for Rebirth?

I did for the only other game I was interested in in 2013. You may have heard of it. It was called Sim City.

2013 was a sad year for games.

RIP Maxis.


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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 19:58    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Graaf wrote:
spankahontis wrote:
Creative Assembly taught me what happens when you cut content and slowly reintroduce it and expect us to be grateful. ..... I don't want Egosoft to follow their model, I welcome their bold approach.

But isn't this exactly what Egosoft is doing now too? You're about to buy a new game for the ability to pilot more ships and have the Paranids return. And in the future we get the Boron DLC.
Honestly, I don't see the difference.


The difference from Creative Assembly is they were caught repackaging Content that was already in the Game on release date, they sold it back as DLC to make Pre-Order Sales, they still did this with Warhammer with the Chaos Faction Dlc, selling new unique Faction playthroughs as dlc.

And Shogun 2 (Which they were honest about that time) That they were cutting sizeable content from the game to try and streamline it, it worked for Feudal Japan, I enjoyed it then came the DLC Gravy Train which was a taste of things to come with Rome 2.
Previous CA Games were full of features and Rome 2 was stripped bare of features that made it great; the new features they did add, naming Armies, New intelligent Ai (Boy did that go down in flames) They took features out and what they put in was a crap horrible substitute for what TW Fans lost.
Where as Proper Traits and Ancillaries (Like in Rome 1 and Med II: Kingdoms), Building Tech Trees, Unique Units, Unique Factions, Animated Assassination Events etc. were taken out and it caused outrage.
I'm keeping my Eye on Thrones of Britannia, but I fear it's just the same old clone with a ridiculous amount of DLC, plus the unit cards and animations look ugly.

Funny you should mention Maxis and Sim City, I too loved that franchise and I share your loss for such a legendary title.
But that's what happens when you sell your soul to Electronic Arts, they eviscerate a games company, relocate their staff and sell off Assets, they're the Bain Capital Ltd. of Games companies and SEGA are probably going to do the same with CA when something similar comes along and they start issuing stricter targets and forcing market research down their throats to "add this and that feature cause Market Research says this is popular with fans" Just not CA Fans.
Luckily Deep Silver/Koch Media don't seem to crack the whip.

Egosoft aren't dumbing down or boneing their Game to a Husk, for what they've cut out, they've added new features to compensate, not 100% effective but you can see that Egosoft care where as CA simply don't listen to Feedback or we would have that Creative Assembly title we were promised back since Shogun 2.
The difference is in terms of what's being reintroduced to X Games and what's being added as new content.. There is full NPC Models now (Which X3 doesn't have), it's going to take a while to make enough to not be bogged with clones, sadly Rebirth failed in this regard, I wont lie; but I can see clear as day what they're doing and it's not reselling as it was never part of previous X Games in the first place.
To add further there is Ships with hundreds of Attachable Objects and all the coding, pathfinding needed to make them work (Which X3 doesn't have) That takes time to implement, again not an old feature being reintroduced.

Then there is the Stations with Hundreds of attachable Objects that you can walk inside of (Which X3 doesn't have) This is time consuming so can understand why we don't see Split, Boron, Paranid Style Modules, the number of Human/Terran Modules in Rebirth ALONE is staggering; when they reintroduce these and can walk around (Or maybe even swin inside) a Boron Facility and walk around a Paranid Facility then we will see how full of content X4 is to Rebirth and far beyond X3 and what it's Engine could accomplish.

Anyway you want to see it, Egosoft are making a ton of new models that will greatly outnumber what's seen in X3 and X4 will be no different.
Sure we can debate that features from X3 were taken out, sure there was, most we're reintroduced , those that didn't, probably not enough time? Or perhaps they didn't go well with the new Engine and were intentionally left out.

Many see a feature that isn't part of X Games anymore and the first reaction is "The Games dumbing down" This was made apparent when people were comparing Oblivion to Skyrim, Oblivion to Morrowind etc.
See the greater picture, the greater Context.

X4 is reinventing itself while keeping a sizeable number of features from previous X Games in. Losing Jumpdrives (For now?) doesn't bother me.
I'm interested to see how tactical chokepoints are going to work in X4, i'll make my views known if I don't like them or not after a few hundred hours of gameplay.


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PostPosted: Fri, 25. May 18, 23:14    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:
Egosoft aren't dumbing down or boneing their Game to a Husk, for what they've cut out, they've added new features to compensate

The only new thing is the walking part, along with a load of mini-games to give you the illusion it has a purpose.
The new features you talk about are not impressive enough to observe from my point of view, so I doubt they will compensate for the features we lost.


spankahontis wrote:
Stuff from Rebirth....Which X3 doesn't have

Although X3 didn't have attachable object, like Rebirth does, I did have ships and stations. But I didn't mention those, did I. I mentioned the ability to pilot more ships and the reintroduction of 1 race now, and possibly another later.


spankahontis wrote:
Then there is the Stations with Hundreds of attachable Objects that you can walk inside of (Which X3 doesn't have) This is time consuming so can understand why we don't see Split, Boron, Paranid Style Modules, the number of Human/Terran Modules in Rebirth ALONE is staggering; when they reintroduce these and can walk around (Or maybe even swin inside) a Boron Facility and walk around a Paranid Facility then we will see how full of content X4 is to Rebirth and far beyond X3 and what it's Engine could accomplish.

And here we have the problem. I always thought it was the single ship limitation, but I was wrong. It actually is the Walking part. It is a time sink that doesn't add anything meaningful to the game now, and it is unlikely to do so in the future. But it takes a massive amount of time and resources to build a game around. Zaphod may have been joking about 2025, but I don't he is far off.


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PostPosted: Sat, 26. May 18, 19:58    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Graaf wrote:
Although X3 didn't have attachable object, like Rebirth does, I did have ships and stations. But I didn't mention those, did I. I mentioned the ability to pilot more ships and the reintroduction of 1 race now, and possibly another later.


And as I pointed out previously, were talking fully fleshed out 3d Models with animations, randomly generated on Stations, while at the same time, adding voice acting, clothes, accessories, classes that sell items, become crewman, activate missions etc..
This isn't some miniscule task, if anything they weren't given enough time to fully flesh this out.
Even the Elder Scrolls got repetitive after a while, you notice similar facial models, hair styles, the NPC Children are all clones of each other with different clothes and hairstyles etc.

They're building a Universe here. This takes time and patience which they had too little time, for customers with even little patience.


Graaf wrote:
The only new thing is the walking part,


Walking around isn't the only feature and deep down you know that, why you keep focussing on this particular feature, I don't know?
Wasn't perfectly implemented but the possibilities for improvement on this feature are endless, but you refuse to see that.

Then there is proper mining, both X3 and Rebirth have Mining vessels, but in Rebirth, they worked. Mining with an Orca in X3 just lead to the ship getting damaged, spent more money repairing it than making profit, the point that you just automatically plopped a mining station on a rock with unlimited Silicon and Iron Ore.
Sure the asteroids in both games were procedurally generated, but Rebirth's were more realistic. They were mined by ships, collected by drones and delivered to a station for processing.

A better management system for stations, the Economy was semi-self sustaining rather than X3's magically appearing Stations and Stock appearing out of thin air.
There is a better Map interface after 3.0 to the bland one in X3 which is ackward to use with systems like Maelstrom and Elana's Fortune, especially for placing Stations (Never seemed to like micro-asteroids when placing a Station), and yeah, the ability to take out a ships engines, shields, weapons which X3's point anywhere on the ships Hull and do the same damage as everywhere else system wasn't acceptable immersion wise, Rebirth surpasses X3 in many ways.
The ability to actually explore all the Sectors of a System rather than a ****** 200km x 200km area with pretty wallpaper Planet/Moon in the distance.
Seamless gate travel, no loading screens. Hacking ships and stations, as well as booby trapping ships with drone bombs and scanning drones.
Then there is dangerous regions of Space, which to be fair X3 had with flying too close to Planets Atmosphere but Rebirth took this further with dangerous regions of Space that do damage to Ships, there are too many to point out in one sitting.
Then there is late versions of the game that reintroduced features from X3.

Graaf wrote:
And here we have the problem. I always thought it was the single ship limitation, but I was wrong. It actually is the Walking part. It is a time sink that doesn't add anything meaningful to the game now, and it is unlikely to do so in the future. But it takes a massive amount of time and resources to build a game around. Zaphod may have been joking about 2025, but I don't he is far off.


There was too many ships in X3:AP, the game engine was overburdened with ships, ships that require resources from the games Engine, less space for other features.

only 100 ships vs 500 ships, Non-issue for me personally, Quantity in this case doesn't account for Quality here.

XBTF had a single ship, all those multiple ships to pilot didn't come along until later sequels, yet you're not spitting your dummy out over that?
Frontier: Elite 2 + Close Encounters let you pilot numerous Ships, but I don't think you'd be running to that game in protest?
Took Egosoft a decade to get the game from a game with one pilot-able Ship and a handful of Sectors to X3: Albion Prelude levels of size and scale.

You're expecting a new game engine like Rebirth which is the XBTF of it's engine to have all the features of X3 and more in the space of seven to ten years.
For what Egosoft has managed to accomplish with Rebirth with the time they had should be applauded and X4 has had 3 more years breathing room for greater improvement on that.
But again you refuse to see that, Heck you don't even own the game so how can you be an expert on everything Rebirth+2 DLCs contains?
If your opinion is from Version 1.0 that you played and got your money back then I pity your views.
I loved X3, but I can name 101 reasons it failed and needed improvements, the same goes for Rebirth, I could find 101 reasons it failed, but it doesn't make either game bad, no game has ever scored a 10 out of 10 for me, not even the Elder Scrolls, Sim City etc.


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PostPosted: Sun, 27. May 18, 19:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:
They're building a Universe here.

No, they're not. They're building interiors.


spankahontis wrote:
This takes time and patience which they had too little time, for customers with even little patience.

I'm actually offended by that.


spankahontis wrote:
Then there is proper mining, both X3 and Rebirth have Mining vessels, but in Rebirth, they worked. Mining with an Orca in X3 just lead to the ship getting damaged, spent more money repairing it than making profit, the point that you just automatically plopped a mining station on a rock with unlimited Silicon and Iron Ore.
Sure the asteroids in both games were procedurally generated, but Rebirth's were more realistic. They were mined by ships, collected by drones and delivered to a station for processing.

Well, I like to advice you that you should stay out off the system your Orca is mining in. But honestly, you should have known that a long time ago.
And I believe there is a mining station in Rebirth, although it isn't used as one.


spankahontis wrote:
The ability to actually explore all the Sectors of a System rather than a ****** 200km x 200km area with pretty wallpaper Planet/Moon in the distance.
Then there is dangerous regions of Space, which to be fair X3 had with flying too close to Planets Atmosphere but Rebirth took this further with dangerous regions of Space that do damage to Ships, there are too many to point out in one sitting.

Useless planets that can kill you. Nice to contradict yourself.
Dangerous regions in space. Are these like Hull/Shield Eating Nebulae from X2.


spankahontis wrote:
Seamless gate travel, no loading screens.

Sure, but you only have 8 systems. It's still a small universe. Maybe when we get back to 200 again the engine will let you notice. You may even want the Jumpdrive back again.
Did you know that a 8Gb graphics card with 32Gb of RAM severely cuts loading time in X3.


spankahontis wrote:
There was too many ships in X3:AP, the game engine was overburdened with ships, ships that require resources from the games Engine, less space for other features.

only 100 ships vs 500 ships, Non-issue for me personally, Quantity in this case doesn't account for Quality here.

With more races come more ships. With more factions come more designs. Rebirth is a small game.


spankahontis wrote:
XBTF had a single ship, all those multiple ships to pilot didn't come along until later sequels, yet you're not spitting your dummy out over that?

I joined with X2. That would make XBtF is a step back. And like you, I compare Rebirth with XBtF: A step back. Sure, maybe an technological step forward as a tech demo, but not as an X-game.


spankahontis wrote:
You're expecting a new game engine like Rebirth which is the XBTF of it's engine to have all the features of X3 and more in the space of seven to ten years.

Yes, and probably doable without the Walking part.


spankahontis wrote:
For what Egosoft has managed to accomplish with Rebirth with the time they had should be applauded and X4 has had 3 more years breathing room for greater improvement on that.
But again you refuse to see that,

That's because I look at it from a different perspective. Like the size comparison of the game universe.


spankahontis wrote:
Heck you don't even own the game so how can you be an expert on everything Rebirth+2 DLCs contains?

I'm flattered you consider me an expert.


spankahontis wrote:
I loved X3, but I can name 101 reasons it failed and needed improvements, the same goes for Rebirth, I could find 101 reasons it failed, but it doesn't make either game bad, no game has ever scored a 10 out of 10 for me, not even the Elder Scrolls, Sim City etc.

I won't deny that X3 has some issues, but nowhere near that of Rebirth's. With stats like these, I would say it's on design level.


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PostPosted: Mon, 28. May 18, 15:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Fleabum wrote:
This is exactly what they have done. Seems you're forgetting X4 is the next iteration after X3, not the next iteration of Rebirth. So when you compare X3 to X4, they have removed a lot of fundamental game features of X3 and added features tested in Rebirth, and expect us to be grateful.


Totally wrong, It's the same game engine as Rebirth, didn't you notice in the alpha footage how the ships fly like they do in Rebirth? The Station walking is still there? No load screens, NO BORON!! etc.
They're simply had 3 years breathing space to code in X3 features, it's not the other way round, mate.
This is a Rebirth that's caught up or catching up to X3 in terms of what it contained.

I've seen Egosoft Mods and Developers mention on here in the past that the X3 engine was becoming in their words.. "Unmanageable". How can they make an X4 from X3's Engine when the X3 Engine is overburdened from the get go.
Which should be applauded in the end as they're listening and they're appealing to both sides here.

Let's be real here, what was stopping them calling Rebirth.. X4:Rebirth? Simple explanation was the Engine wasn't ready and that was evident on release.
This is them using this extra 3 years of breathing space to improve X:Rebirth, enough for them to take the chance and call it X4, which in my opinion they wanted to call Rebirth but they ran out of time and money.

Creative Assembly simply took peoples feedback of reintroducing features that made the genre what it was and continued knocking out Rome 2/Atilla clones with a lick of new paint and a new feature here and there that became poor substitutes for what the old games had; that and going on a DLC binge.

Fleabum wrote:
I can see the point of view of people who liked Rebirth, they want Rebirth2, Rebirth was too limiting, not enough ships, not enough weapons. They now want Rebirth with new ships, weapons, stations, better economy and many of the (selected) features from X3 (they liked). Well it looks like thats what X4 will be, so they should be happy.


Which again proves my point, there will be less ships in X4, more than Rebirth but allot less than X3.
They mentioned this in their last Alpha Q&A I believe?
That X3:AP had too many ships, they're looking for a balance between too few from Rebirth to too many in X3.

But as I mentioned before, a case of "Quality not Quantity ".


Fleabum wrote:
Accepting the Status Quo is also what people do when they don't speak out when they don't like something, and that's exactly what this thread is all about. The fact is that you are accepting the Status Quo by not letting players exercise their right to show they are unhappy with certain major game changes that were in X3 but removed from X4.


Who's stopping you voicing your concern, you shouldn't jump to conclusions; I welcome what your saying, I just don't agree with you on most of what your saying.

You misunderstand, im saying, which may not of been greatly understood here is that you're using the term 'Status Quo' as a "You're either with us or against us?" Narrative.
I'm simply trying to get a debate going between X3 fans and Rebirth Fans to find that 'middle ground' that'll satisfy us both.
There's no difference between the status Quo and being a hardliner, both want to be the Man.

That's the problem i'm seeing with a sizeable portion of the X3 Camp, they wont let X3 Breath, it's like debating a Republican on the Constitution, they don't accept that the whole point of an Amendment is that it can be 'amended', they see it as blasphemous to even consider updating an 1800's Text.

I liked both Rebirth and X3, difference is i'm prepared to criticise both for their failings and I tell you now, if X4 is just a more bloated version of X3 then i'm not interested. I could play X3 for that with mods.

It's about injecting new life into the game but understanding that many aren't ready for change so drastic.. I'm hoping X4 is a close enough bridge of both as well as an olive branch to those that felt betrayed.


Fleabum wrote:
And you calling people X3 fanboys is a bit of a disservice. They are the avid and loyal customers that are still playing a game long after its expiry date.


I love X3, i've played just under 1000 hours of it, to me that's a success.
But I've clocked almost 3000 hours of Rebirth and still play it with CWIR, Ship Bridges and several other little mod changes so I consider that proof to myself that I enjoyed that game too. I sold X3 years ago, might consider getting the X Bundle someday and going through an X1 to X3:AP Binge for story purposes.

Sadly there are what I call 'Fanboys' I should of changed that to 'Hardliners' as a more accurate description, ones that will force the franchise to 'stagnate' because they fear 'too much' change, Rebirth triggered that defensive nature which many X Fans have and well.. We've both sat and read 3 years of the venom being spewed out on the Rebirth forum; there was so much pitchfolk and barely any creative criticism to find, not until the heat died down anyway.

Being a fan of X3 is perfectly fine as long as you're able to sit back and see where X3 could of gone? It's strengths and weaknesses.
I criticise X3 as much as I criticise X:Rebirth, cause I totally agree with you on that we give it tough love so the next instalment is even better, but there's no such thing as a 10/10 for me, I found Rebirth was a rough 7-8, X3 about the same.

X4 being a hybrid of the 2 games I hope will bring the community back together, or at least repair some of the divide.


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PostPosted: Mon, 28. May 18, 16:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Graaf wrote:

No, they're not. They're building interiors.


No they're building more in-depth Systems, where you can fly from Planet to planet; again with the interiors!
But you don't own the game so how can you have an informed opinion about everything in Rebirth?


Graaf wrote:
I'm actually offended by that.


When are you never offended? No, i'm being serious here!


Graaf wrote:
Well, I like to advice you that you should stay out off the system your Orca is mining in. But honestly, you should have known that a long time ago.
And I believe there is a mining station in Rebirth, although it isn't used as one.


That's a TERRIBLE excuse for a poorly implemented mining mechanic!
At least with Rebirth you HAD BOTH and they worked.
Which again shows you incapable of being reasoned with if you're just going to duck around an issue like that.


Graaf wrote:
Useless planets that can kill you. Nice to contradict yourself.
Dangerous regions in space. Are these like Hull/Shield Eating Nebulae from X2.


PMSL!! Son i've been telling Egosoft that for years, but everytime I ask about Planets with Stations to Land on, it gets shot down by Ketraar and CBJ.
You see Graaf, you can be positive in your criticism.

And did I miss the topic where you criticised X3 for not having Shield/Hull Eating Nebulae?
What's good for the Goose and all that.


Graaf wrote:
Sure, but you only have 8 systems. It's still a small universe. Maybe when we get back to 200 again the engine will let you notice. You may even want the Jumpdrive back again.
Did you know that a 8Gb graphics card with 32Gb of RAM severely cuts loading time in X3.


We can argue that Sector/Zone/System has changed it's meaning when you add every zone in every sector in every system but that wouldn't sink in to you.
Pretty Wallpaper of a System you can't explore with a Jumpdrive that can take you almost instantaneously from one end of the Universe to the other.
Pile the Load Screens on top of that as well as loading pauses when you dock and the tediousness is tripled.

As for your advice of PC's thanks, but I sold my copy of X3 long before I got this bad boy, which would cut loading times in half but they'd still be there.
No excuses, loading screens are tedious.


Graaf wrote:
With more races come more ships. With more factions come more designs. Rebirth is a small game.


Smaller than X3? Yes, a case of a new engine trying play catch up to a trilogy that's had a decade to get where it was; but were going round in circles here.
Small all round? Again, you don't own the game, you've never flown about in those Systems, they're massive, especially areas like Toride and Fields of Opportunity, you can get lost in those Systems with no Highways to guide you.



Graaf wrote:
I joined with X2. That would make XBtF is a step back. And like you, I compare Rebirth with XBtF: A step back. Sure, maybe an technological step forward as a tech demo, but not as an X-game.


I see Rebirth as a buggy X3 Reunion level game on release, but with different features that Reunion couldn't have.
4.0 was a catch up to X3 Terran Conflict, close but no cigar. But then it's had less time.
Devs have said in here that the X3 Engine was becoming "unmanageable".
Again, you can be offended if you like, I don't care as Egosoft are on the clock to build a new Engine as close to X3 as they can while adding new features while juggling an impatient crowd of Pitchfolk wielding Hard-liners.
What they could do with the time and money showed what they could do and X4 is hopefully the 3 years that they were denied with Rebirth's release.
But you have to actually play the game to be able to compare with a degree of honesty and bluntness.
Criticising without playing the game to someone that's played both (And liked both by the way), you come off as being deliberately ignorant.


Graaf wrote:
Yes, and probably doable without the Walking part.


*sigh*



Graaf wrote:
That's because I look at it from a different perspective. Like the size comparison of the game universe.


Buy the Game, play it, you can't have a perspective on something you've never played.
I've played X3 almost 1000 hours, Rebirth under 3000 and am able to develop a perspective of both games.
Guessing whether a games good or bad through word of Mouth is pointless and i'm tired of having this conversation with you.


Graaf wrote:
I'm flattered you consider me an expert.


That's what perspective is all about, analysing someone's character and personality.
You give off the impression that you THINK that you're an expert on all matters X:Rebirth when several members here who know you too well know that you don't own a copy of Rebirth.
So in all fairness, no, you're not an expert, I could listen to you about X2 and X3 as you've played them.
But nobody takes you seriously on matters of Rebirth, I wish you could see that.


Graaf wrote:
I won't deny that X3 has some issues, but nowhere near that of Rebirth's. With stats like these, I would say it's on design level.


That's not down to bad design, if Rebirth released on V3.0, V4.0 that link you just posted would not be the same.

But again this is like Rotten Tomatoes review of the Last Jedi, what the review shows is nothing compared to ticket sales which is a true indicator of success.
Haters will downvote anything they feel offended about, Human Nature.

When Home of Light came out, positive reviews increased. People seldom return to change their reviews or write new ones on the current status of the game.
A bad release is more than most a death sentence.


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PostPosted: Mon, 28. May 18, 17:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Feel free to debate the topic with passion by all means but please don't try to analyse the other posters or their circumstances and motives in public. Keep the debate impersonal and polite please.


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Fleabum





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PostPosted: Mon, 28. May 18, 21:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks Alan, it does seem to be getting a little ‘personal’ in here. I will try to keep my responses based upon my views and not paraphrasing others.

Spankahontis, as you seem to love the quote-post, I will oblige you.

spankahontis wrote:
Totally wrong, It's the same game engine as Rebirth, didn't you notice in the alpha footage how the ships fly like they do in Rebirth? The Station walking is still there? No load screens, NO BORON!! etc.

Sorry to correct you, but you really have missed my point, not by a few feet, but by a mile. For me, it’s not about the engine, it never has been. It could be written in Unity, Unreal, native C# or whatever Egosoft call their ‘Rebirth’ engine. I am not talking about the engine and I couldn’t care less about the engine…. It’s what is created with the engine. It’s the removal of fundamental X3 game elements and addition of pointless elements between X3 and X4, not between X3-Rebirth-X4 that is my bone of contention.

spankahontis wrote:
there will be less ships in X4, more than Rebirth but allot less than X3. They mentioned this in their last Alpha Q&A I believe? That X3:AP had too many ships, they're looking for a balance between too few from Rebirth to too many in X3. But as I mentioned before, a case of "Quality not Quantity ".

Yet again your comparing Rebirth to X4, it should be X3 to X4. Too many ships? You’re personal opinion, maybe, but not mine. I would not only love to see more ships, but also ones that are based upon standard designs, but modified in such a way that pirates and bounty hunters would in a realistic environment. A standard fighter equipped with heavy weapons that has lesser shielding or speed. Just like motor cars in our world today, people tweak and make theirs quicker but use more fuel, why would this be different to vehicles in space? It wouldn’t. When it comes to ships, more is better. Yet again I am comparing X3 to X4, not Rebirth to X4. X3 had quality and quantity of ships, so X4 should build upon this, so I don’t really see your point here that less is better. (although I would love to see the names changed M7 bigger than a M5 just made no sense).

spankahontis wrote:
That's the problem i'm seeing with a sizeable portion of the X3 Camp, they wont let X3 Breath, it's like debating a Republican on the Constitution, they don't accept that the whole point of an Amendment is that it can be 'amended', they see it as blasphemous to even consider updating an 1800's Text.

I have no idea what a Republican debating the Constitution would look like, I guess that’s an USA political thing, means little to me in the EU. But there’s a reason as you put it ‘X3 Camp’ wont let X3 breath, they play X3 and not Rebirth, make of that what you will, but looking at the hours played by X3 series and the Rebirth series shows where people's loyalties lie, these are cold hard facts, they can be quantified. X3 still has more players than Rebirth, why is this? X3 is a better game (based upon statistics).

Image a new space movie, it's full of pink fluffy space hippos that like to dance off's with sabres of light in multiphasic nebulae instead of war… let’s call it Star Wars X, so we can cash in on the previous movie, ok? People will understand, right? Wrong, when you have series, there are certain expectations; expectations that the new iteration in the series will be majorly based upon the previous iteration. This is what's happening, the new game is Rebirth with more ships a few changes and they are playing on the X3 brand to try and make it more successful. I might be cynical, but this is the feeling I get.

spankahontis wrote:
Sadly there are what I call 'Fanboys' I should of changed that to 'Hardliners' as a more accurate description, ones that will force the franchise to 'stagnate' because they fear 'too much' change, Rebirth triggered that defensive nature which many X Fans have and well.. We've both sat and read 3 years of the venom being spewed out on the Rebirth forum; there was so much pitchfolk and barely any creative criticism to find, not until the heat died down anyway.


Depends on your viewpoint I suppose, I tried Rebirth, I really did. I even pre ordered two copies, one for me and one for the missus. It was utter sh*te, the early reviews were right, if but a little kind. In my opinion it was a sad attempt at making something like X3 for console lovers. It looked like something for a console, it smelled like something for a console, it even tasted like something for a console. But this was my failing, I was expecting X4, and it wasn't so I carried on playing X3... that makes me a hardliner I suppose. I sent one of the games back, and still have a pristine unopened Rebirth on my shelf, just to remind me never to pre-order a game again.

But this time it's different, it is called X4, I am expecting X4, not Rebirth2, if it doesn't step up to the mark and deliver the X3 experience, then its a failing of the game dev this time. X3 didn't need, and X4 doesn't need pointless station walking, pointless open the lootcrate minigames, pointless spaghetti bumper cars, pointless rancid crew interactions with a countdown, hell, I don't even want to interact with a crew, they get paid, they follow my orders and if they dont they get spaced out of the nearest airlock. These kinds of game designs are best left for the arcade-like Rebirth series or console players. Yes they might be awesome the first time you do it, they might look super cool, but it gets old, fast, and having time sink pointless game design ruins its longevity.

spankahontis wrote:
X4 being a hybrid of the 2 games I hope will bring the community back together, or at least repair some of the divide.

This one statement says it all, X4 can’t be a Rebirth/X3 hybrid. Rebirth was an arcade game playing at being a universe simulator, X3 was a universe simulator with added arcade action. In essence just too different gameplay styles. So, it’s either X4 or Rebirth2, you cant have your cake and eat it. It still looks like Rebirth2 more than X4. I am willing to wait and see how the new game compares to X3, I hope I am wrong that its really Rebirth2. I don't think you can repair the divide unless all the Rebirth nonsense is removed from X4. Wink


I was going to post more, but lost the will to live writing such a long post. Just accept that I see X4 as the next iteration of X3, if it contains more Rebirth than X3 then its Rebirth2, not X4 and lets leave it at that.

Oh, one last thing, it's good news from the other thread. Seems there is a /warp command that takes you to any point in space, then there is a good chance we can mod in jump drives and nav beacons.

Regards
Flea

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Jeraal





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PostPosted: Tue, 29. May 18, 03:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Fleabum wrote:
...
Just accept that I see X4 as the next iteration of X3, if it contains more Rebirth than X3 then its Rebirth2, not X4 and lets leave it at that.
...


Regards
Flea


Well said.

I was excited about Rebirth when it was announced. Then as I read more and more, I became less interested. Did not pre-order and am glad I didn't. Bought it much later on sale and was disappointed. As I read more about X4, I am getting that same feeling.


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sd_jasper





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PostPosted: Tue, 29. May 18, 18:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Fleabum wrote:
X3 didn't need, and X4 doesn't need pointless station walking, pointless open the lootcrate minigames, pointless spaghetti bumper cars, pointless rancid crew interactions with a countdown, hell, I don't even want to interact with a crew, they get paid, they follow my orders and if they dont they get spaced out of the nearest airlock.


"pointless station walking" - The point of station walking (in X4) is to create a seamless universe where you can land one ship, exit it and walk over to another, and then take off in that ship.

"pointless open the lootcrate minigames" - Well I'm not going to address how interacting with items in the environment can be considered a "mini-game" or get into if this is pointless or not, before asking what if anything has lead you to believe that this is present in X4?

"pointless spaghetti bumper car" - I'm guessing you are referring to local highways. Which (1) with the addition of Travel Drive seems like they can be totally ignored by the players, and (2) do serve to aid heavily travelled routs between stations (and all the NPC traffic that would go with that). Pretty much the same as real world highways serve. I'll also point out that the highways shown in the videos have been straight or slightly curved (no spaghetti).

"pointless rancid crew interactions with a countdown" - Countdown? I'm not sure what you are referring too. The only thing I can think of from X Rebirth is when a ship (that you have given a direct trade command to) has an issue with a trade and calls the player to allow for an override of the default behavior. If you ignore them for a few seconds (countdown?) then they will continue with the default action. I would not consider this pointless, as situationally you may want them to do something else.

"I don't even want to interact with a crew" - I think some level of interaction is required. Sector and Universal Traders in X3 were technically "crew" and had to be told where to trade, monitored for when they "leveled up", and maybe told what sectors to avoid.

And again, I don't find any of this pointless. I like more detailed control over my NPC employees to add depth to the game.

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Assailer





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PostPosted: Wed, 30. May 18, 06:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I somewhat agree with the much cleaner jump gate solution. The highway has offered nothing but complication, lag, bouncing(!) around and if you think about there is plenty of space to avoid that Smile


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