Syria

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pjknibbs
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Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 07:53

RegisterMe wrote: Were any missiles shot down, and, as yet, has any retaliation taken place?
Putin says 70-odd were shot down, Trump says none. Depends who you choose to believe, really...

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 11:47

I'd warned people that Trump was looking for war. It's almost gotten to the point of being formulaic. If the "Administration" has domestic issues it can't deal with, start a war. Trump certainly is playing it to hilt. Been there.... Done that... It's not fun. (George commands and we obey. Ower' the hills and far away...) :cry:
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Post by mrbadger » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 13:38

Well you want a an incompetant leader, and you got one. You're going to let him start wars as a distraction method too. Then pretend that's not really why he's doing it.

Frankly if the citizens of the 'greatest nation in the world' can't deal with a home made despot then you deserve everything you get.
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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 17:46

Well put mrbadger. However after watching the Sunday morning Talkin Head programs I have the opinion from our Ambassador to the UN that it was the UK and France that lit Trump off. I have a picture in mind :idea:

From the result and it not getting that close to the Russians I'd say its back to Trump looking like he's acting tough and Putin doing the same and if they were in the same room all handshakes and drinks.
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mrbadger
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Post by mrbadger » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 20:35

Hank001 wrote:Well put mrbadger. However after watching the Sunday morning Talkin Head programs I have the opinion from our Ambassador to the UN that it was the UK and France that lit Trump off. I have a picture in mind :idea:
I rather doubt that. The US is way more lit up on attacking Syria than the UK has been.

But now it's been done, sharing the blame is a good way to say 'hey, it wasn't our idea'.

But the UK didn't fire the missiles, did we. No-one forced the US to do it.

Look at a map, the UK is a pissy little Island. You want to say we pushed you into it?
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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 20:50

You've got a good point there. "Nickey" our UN Ambassador made quite a point on "Face the Nation" this morning that Trump "listened" to UK and France.... Which since she's one of Trumps apologists should have tipped me off as to the veracity of the statements. (That being, of course, 0 or into the negative numbers.) Besides, when does DJT listen to anyone... Well except for foreign dictators. Which makes me wonder what he REALLY thinks about Assad?
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Post by felter » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 22:44

mrbadger wrote:But the UK didn't fire the missiles, did we. No-one forced the US to do it.
The UK used 8 aircraft, 4 Tornado bombers and 4 Typhoon fighters to protect the bombers. Each Tornado carried 2 Storm Shadow missiles, which are the UK's own cruise missiles (French and Italian also use them). They are kind of a bunker buster, meaning they penetrate their target and then explode, rather than exploding on contact. All missiles were launched and all planes returned to base without instance. So if the Russians shot down all of the missiles, how come they managed to miss the 8 UK planes flying in Syrian air space, surely they would have been prime targets.
I'm not saying he is a Russian asset, I'm saying he sat on his asset when he was supposed to be confronting Putin.
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Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 23:43

Well they weren't in Syrian airspace. The Storm Shadow has a range of ~300 miles iirc. Apart from that I agree with you :).
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felter
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Post by felter » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 00:08

Yeah they have a range of 150 - 300+ nautical miles, I take it they must have different payloads. The way I was thinking on it, they had a fighter escort, if they weren't in Syrian airspace just friendly airspace, they wouldn't have needed the escort. But yeah I suppose they may not have needed to go into Syrian airspace and the fighters were just there as some kind of backup as needed, or maybe they always fly with a fighter backup.
I'm not saying he is a Russian asset, I'm saying he sat on his asset when he was supposed to be confronting Putin.
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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 00:51

felter wrote:Yeah they have a range of 150 - 300+ nautical miles, I take it they must have different payloads. The way I was thinking on it, they had a fighter escort, if they weren't in Syrian airspace just friendly airspace, they wouldn't have needed the escort. But yeah I suppose they may not have needed to go into Syrian airspace and the fighters were just there as some kind of backup as needed, or maybe they always fly with a fighter backup.
When firing into enemy territory, "Friendly Airspace".. isn't. The "airspace" won't protect them from anything, but a fighter-escort will.

So, a research/development facility and some storage bunkers were blow'd the f up...

Putin says "WE SHOOTS TEHM ALL DOWN LOLZ!"

..

So, a research/development facility and some storage bunkers were blow'd the f up... Any missiles that were "shot down" don't fookin matter. A research/development facility and some storage bunkers were blow'd the f up.

"The bullet-proof vest protected the victim from three potentially lethal gunshot wounds, but they were killed by the shots that weren't aimed at the bullet-proof vest."

Anyway, this is all a non-issue. Syria's capabilities weren't seriously degraded by this action. Yes, some "we know where you are" facilities were turned into modern art masterpieces, but the planes will still be flying, the bombs still falling, the artillery still commanding battle and innocent civilians will still end up becoming an endangered species.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the US and Russia are still sitting in UNSEC calling each other poopyheads while others pay the price for international complacency.

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Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 08:35

Morkonan wrote: Anyway, this is all a non-issue. Syria's capabilities weren't seriously degraded by this action. Yes, some "we know where you are" facilities were turned into modern art masterpieces, but the planes will still be flying, the bombs still falling
I heard that Syria, having plenty of warning the US were planning something due to Trump's big mouth, moved a lot of their materiel to a Russian airbase in the north, since they correctly assumed the US wouldn't be so daft as to directly assault the Russians.

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Post by Chips » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 14:20

They moved their planes and fighters etc.

Why have fighter escorts for bombers? That may be RAF operating methods, who knows. I wouldn't read too much into it, but the Typhoon is more advanced than the Tornado, so perhaps it's the avionics and other things too. Really can't read into it tbh.

As for why the bombing - do nothing and chemical weapon use is (through silence) being accepted. Don't do anything when they use small scale, they may be reinvigorated to use much bigger payloads too - after all, gassing civilians would mean you wouldn't necessarily destroy the infrastructure as you would with conventional bombs. So surely a much more attractive measure against pesky rebels.

Message sent, it isn't much of a message admittedly, but no-one has appetite to wage a war and it's fairly obvious waging a war isn't on the cards either. I'd imagine it can step up from here if he continued... but it is sending a signal (and not just to Assad, but others who may have started to believe that using chemical weapons is fine as no-one notices).

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 14:31

In the words of baseball great Yogi Bera it's "Desa Vu All over again. In Desert Storm it wasn't generally known the allies were told by the UNSC they had to inform Russia of some impending attacks "So they could evacuate their advisors." That's why the "bunker busting" failed to get Saddam and the Iraqi's moved civilians into the bunkers before hand and made a media show out of the result. Yes I have NO DOUBT the Russians knew Barsa was on the frag order before hand and no doubt they informed their Iraqi allies.

In the US the news isn't "We bombed Syria" it's that we have 2000 troops there and not are direct military offensive ops without the approval of congress. The downbeat is every president since Nixon has done this. What's new?
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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 16:42

pjknibbs wrote:
Morkonan wrote: Anyway, this is all a non-issue. Syria's capabilities weren't seriously degraded by this action. Yes, some "we know where you are" facilities were turned into modern art masterpieces, but the planes will still be flying, the bombs still falling
I heard that Syria, having plenty of warning the US were planning something due to Trump's big mouth, moved a lot of their materiel to a Russian airbase in the north, since they correctly assumed the US wouldn't be so daft as to directly assault the Russians.
But, Russian mercs are fair game

No, we wouldn't attack a known Russian airbase... probably. In fact, I don't know how deep attacks are being considered. Skirmish-line, contested regions, incoming attacks against possible civilian targets - Sure, blow 'em, twice. But, if an attack came against largely civilian targets or threatened US personnel? And, if it was a known Russian airbase? Even if it was a known Russian aircraft? We might.

That's the problem with Syria. It's a cluster___. There is no "end game" in this conflict. The US wants to deny ISIS a home, or what's left of it, and then there's the humanitarian mission, which just means "support anyoe fighting against Assad and provide DMZs for refugees." (or something like that)

But, what's the end-game? What's the point? One doesn't go bouncing happily off to a nice little war without figuring out how to declare victory.

Ain't nobody got a plan...

PS - I heard some reports today that Assad's fans are even more dedicated after this recent action by the US. Uh... yay? WTG us!

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Post by Hank001 » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 17:07

The "Nobody's got a plan" is certainly what goes for our side in this.
Just as I'm fairly sure that doesn't apply to Assad-Putin side since they appear quite adept at being the proactive force and quite adept at keeping their adversaries the reactive force.

Since any attempts at planning active operations go through channels that are open to Russia then the observation that Syria is a cluster **** is understatement! ISUL aside, it's also Russia's continuing proxy war with Iran, it's smarting over losing it's foothold in Iraq, and it's desire to.... well become the force in oil markets. They are playing a smart long game here.

It's unfortunate that if our side doesn't develop a strategy besides "counter the Russians" this is going to end up an all time debacle.
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