capital ship gravity draft removes combat challenge

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7777
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 12:55

adeine wrote:While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design.
Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?

DavidGW
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat, 18. May 13, 06:40
x4

Post by DavidGW » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 15:25

adeine wrote:Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.
Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.

Although I guess they are also faster than small ships when jumping, if that counts.
This sounds like a poor decision in so many ways, gameplay-wise. Not only does it make piracy irrelevant (want to catch my heavy freighter with your fighters? well, let me just run away), but it also makes scout ships completely useless. Whereas previously in an X fleet it made sense to have fast scout vessels to clear the area or shield for missiles/whatnot, there'd be no point if your capital ships are faster at getting around (and manoeuvrability doesn't matter since you have turrets). It also makes flying small ships yourself pointless because if you make a capship angry, you won't be able to get away.
None of this is true in X Rebirth. You can always catch cap ships, because they only boost between zones. Worst case scenario you have to chase one across a system, but most of the time you can fly faster than them. And if not, you have plenty of time when they are navigating around stations, and can't boost.

Furthermore, you can also easily outrun a cap ship because they are useless at manoeuvring. I don't think I've ever had a cap ship boost after me, but even if they could, all you would need to do is fly away on a vector not straight in front of them, and you'd be gone by the time they turn.
While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design. Not to mention it's kind of weird and unpredictable from a control standpoint.
That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.

User avatar
LittleBird
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon, 19. Dec 11, 02:02

Post by LittleBird » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 16:56

DavidGW wrote:
adeine wrote:Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.
Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.
If you keep up this explanations people who never played X-Rebirth are confused.

So no. They are not faster!
- Small ships use Highways for long range travel between zones.
- Capital ships are way to huge for highways. They use some kind of travel engine to boost trough the empty space between zones.
Ich bin für die Einführung von Ironie- und Sarkasmustags.
Alle Klarheiten beseitigt!

User avatar
MegaJohnny
Posts: 2195
Joined: Wed, 4. Jun 08, 22:30
x4

Post by MegaJohnny » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 17:25

My only gripe with cap boosters is that, while they happily use hem to get away, they don't use them to catch up unless the target boosts into another zone. If you're the pursuer you can do kludges like "withdraw from battle" to make it boost straight ahead, or tell it to travel to a zone on the other side of the target. But it'd be best if the AI would do it by itself.

Tomonor
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed, 12. Sep 07, 19:01
x4

Post by Tomonor » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 21:32

I think you guys are overcomplicating this matter. It's easy to solve imo: put this feature automatically into "easy" gamemode. Let it be an optional upgrade in "medium", and disable it completely in "hard".

Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 30368
Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
x4

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 21:50

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

Tomonor
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed, 12. Sep 07, 19:01
x4

Post by Tomonor » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 22:08

Alan Phipps wrote:@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.

User avatar
LittleBird
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon, 19. Dec 11, 02:02

Post by LittleBird » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 23:18

repatomonor wrote:
Alan Phipps wrote:@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.
With X-Rebirth Egosoft fokused on ship systems on the surface. I am sure this is in X4 as well.
You simply need some kind of flight assist for this mechanic. And people who say they could maneuver without on the surface or - even better - inside the capital ships... are dreaming.
Ich bin für die Einführung von Ironie- und Sarkasmustags.
Alle Klarheiten beseitigt!

DavidGW
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat, 18. May 13, 06:40
x4

Post by DavidGW » Sun, 1. Apr 18, 07:27

I can see that they might decide to switch off cap ship wake when flight assist mode is disabled. I very much doubt they would add it as an overall game toggle. If they did that, they would have to balance the game for both situations, which would be hard.

I do believe that there is an excellent chance it will be easy to mod out, though.

adeine
Posts: 1089
Joined: Thu, 31. Aug 17, 17:34
x4

Post by adeine » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 02:02

GCU Grey Area wrote: Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?
I've briefly tried X:R but did not enjoy it enough to buy or seriously play it (and clearly don't remember a lot of it).

I'd agree with you if this was an X:R forum, but I think ignorant (re: X:R) posts like my own are warranted when we're talking about a sequel to a game I am familiar with and would love to see lived up to.

It's not so much that I'm saying this is how things are in X:R, clearly I don't know, but what I think is a bad idea for the reasons given.

DavidGW wrote: That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.
Thanks for the clarifications regarding boosting. Still seems weird to me, but at least mitigates some of the gameplay problems.

Not convinced magic inertia fields are the best way to solve the auto-pillock though (cf: hacky workaround for bad design).

User avatar
Killjaeden
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 18:19
x3tc

Post by Killjaeden » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 13:30

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:Oh dear the selective quote and call it ranting so that the rest of the post can be dismissed tactic. How sad.
OK let's examine what other parts of your post where dismissed then
The ship gravity system was put in by the developers to help the player when flying around L and XL ships. Now you want to remove it for the exact same reason?
Why do you ask why or what i'm asking about, when the answer is in the OP? Summarized for your convenience: It is less challenging and therefore less interesting with the "gravity draft assist mechanic" - which is why an option for disabling or not using it will be valuable for people who like to be challenged by the game mechanically - people who do not want the help that is forced on them
This "lets make it harder for the player" kind of thinking leads to game play that for a number of people will make some actions nigh on impossible.
Do we want a game that only a "super elite" with superb reflexes and flying / fighting skills can enjoy. I suspect that there are a number of players like myself that are at the older end of the spectrum, we sometimes need all the help we can get.
Baseless complaint, because i'm advocating for an "opt out" for the assistment system, which means players actively choose to make it harder if they use the option, not the other way round.
If the base game does not come with some control over the level of difficulty that effects this kind of thing, then is this not something that a re-balance mod should address?
Rebalance mods can't remove stuff that is hardcoded into the engine. And mechanics like flight controlls and assist systems are generally the sort of thing that is hardcoded. If there is a config flag that can be toggled to enable/disable that assist function then i achieved all i am after with this topic - as has been stated in the last sentence of the OP. But as i said, based of experience from modding games this is not the type of feature that can be influenced by modding, which is exactly the reason why this topic exists in the first place.
So the OP in this thread is pure speculation on your part, it is not based on fact
It is based on observation. I analyze and try to find out why i dont like things, and explain them, instead of living in bias.

Try and prove the opposite of what i say: That combat is not easier when the gravity draft system is "abused" (my biased description) by the player to fight capital ships. Then you would have a case on my argument beeing wrong. So far everything ive read is dodging around the topic of combat challenge while utilizing the gravity draft - which i consider as confirmation of my points made in the OP.
Which to my mind is saddening as modders usually bring new game-play and innovation to the series, it just seems that some of them, don't like Egosoft doing the same.
New features do not make everything better automatically, and/or do not make everything right the first time. Iteration is a keyword in game development for a reason. It's worth looking at a feature objectively after they are implemented.
LittleBird wrote:With X-Rebirth Egosoft fokused on ship systems on the surface. I am sure this is in X4 as well.
You simply need some kind of flight assist for this mechanic. And people who say they could maneuver without on the surface or - even better - inside the capital ships... are dreaming.
What does you or egosoft let come to the conclusion that the player must fly as close to the surface of a cap ship that this feature is considered a necessity? It would rely on the assumption that
a) it is necessary for the player to be extremely close (<10m) to a capital ship to enjoy or benefit from surface details provided by subcomponents
b) that it is mechanically impossible to guide and keep a ship manually close to a capital ships surface.
Both are wrong. Subcomponents can be worked with just fine from a distance where you don't need the assist mechanic (say 50- 100m distance to the surface) most of the time. Exceptions are docks*
Players can manually stay very close to a capital just fine in X3 (it is challenging, but that doesnt matter).

So no, there is no definite reason that the game could not live without this feature. The feature is nice to have, for people who like it or feel like they need it, which is entirely ok. Some people don't want it however. In XR there is no way to "engage" this "gravity draft" mode by choice upon closing in on a cap ship, it is always forced upon you. So giving the option to "opt out" (remove this feature), or to let the player "opt in" by pressing a hotkey or button once in range of a capital ship (gravity assist off/on) would adress this conflict of interest.

*But this is not a unique problem to X, landing on a moving carrier is a staple of many flight simulators and can be made very easy by having a capital stay it's course when landing permission was granted until the ship is docked, or - even easier - to have it stop like in X3 until ships are landed or started.
___
Alan Phipps wrote:@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? Very Happy
Yeah it's always fun to wield such generalisations as a club to swat all arguments with. It's not very nuanced however.
If someone would just use such generalisations and simplifications as development principle for their game there would not be a game to be played, because "its all too much work, or too difficult, or simply not worth the bother" in principle. The irony of this statement is not lost on me.
Last edited by Killjaeden on Tue, 10. Apr 18, 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
[ external image ]
X-Tended TC Mod Team Veteran.
Modeller of X3AP Split Acinonyx, Split Drake, Argon Lotan, Teladi Tern. My current work:
Image

ZaphodBeeblebrox
Posts: 1823
Joined: Mon, 10. Apr 06, 20:35
x4

Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 14:00

Here are some easy questions for you to answer then.

1) Do you play Rebirth
2) Have you ever used the "gravity draft" system
3) Have you ever captured a Fulmekron using this method or any other XL ship
4) If you have not answered yes to any of the above. How can anything you say be based on "observation"?
It was a woman who drove me to drink... you know I never went back and thanked her.

Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.

User avatar
Killjaeden
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 18:19
x3tc

Post by Killjaeden » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 14:35

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:If you have not answered yes to any of the above
None of those things are required to make observations.
[ external image ]
X-Tended TC Mod Team Veteran.
Modeller of X3AP Split Acinonyx, Split Drake, Argon Lotan, Teladi Tern. My current work:
Image

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7777
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 22:55

Killjaeden wrote:None of those things are required to make observations.
Just curious, what are you basing those observations on if you have no personal experience of the feature?
i'm advocating for an "opt out" for the assistment system, which means players actively choose to make it harder if they use the option
It's already optional - no need to waste dev time putting a toggle in game options. It only works if the player slows down to the same speed as the capital ship. Stay fast & it has no effect.

User avatar
Killjaeden
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 18:19
x3tc

Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 12:59

It's already optional - no need to waste dev time putting a toggle in game options. It only works if the player slows down to the same speed as the capital ship. Stay fast & it has no effect.
That's the on the same line as saying "There is this graphical glitch, but if you don't look at it, it won't affect you.".
No this is not an option. If you slow down to stay in position relative to a ship you have no choice, because it is automatically removing any need for maneuvering and therefore the challenge of it - the point i already explained in the OP.
GCU Grey Area wrote:what are you basing those observations
Observation... as in observing other people play ?
[ external image ]
X-Tended TC Mod Team Veteran.
Modeller of X3AP Split Acinonyx, Split Drake, Argon Lotan, Teladi Tern. My current work:
Image

Spero
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon, 19. May 03, 19:45
x3

Post by Spero » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 13:49

It is a nice system but yeah, it is really overpowered. I think it should just not be 100% effective, whereby the player's ship is pulled along with the capital ship, but not with 100% accuracy, so you still need to maneuver and use thrust.

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 7777
Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
x4

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 15:17

Spero wrote:It is a nice system but yeah, it is really overpowered. I think it should just not be 100% effective, whereby the player's ship is pulled along with the capital ship, but not with 100% accuracy, so you still need to maneuver and use thrust.
Overpowered? I found it to be a frustratingly slow method of eliminating subsystems on a capital ship. Quite dangerous too. Whenever I popped up to take a shot the volume of return fire on the bigger ships was often horrendous, never mind that the most obvious place to hide with the fewest turrets often meant being continually cooked by the capital's engines. Been a very long time since I used that approach. It's just not that good IMO. Find high speed attack runs with swarm missiles to be far more effective in terms of the time it takes to disarm a capital & the danger my ship is exposed to.

Not keen on your suggested tweak. While I don't use the feature with enemy ships I do find it very useful when flying in formation with my own capitals - effectively providing a mobile extra turret (mostly I use a Lepton, good ship but practically unarmed so it needs the help). Would hate to get constantly left behind every time I fire a Novadrone, for example.

User avatar
mr.WHO
Posts: 8549
Joined: Thu, 12. Oct 06, 17:19
x4

Post by mr.WHO » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 18:26

I think that Killjaeden idea to make this on/off option would be best for everyone.

Want it easy to fly next to moving capitals? Turn on.
Want more hardcore/realistic gameplay? Turn off.
Options are good. Everyone is happy.

TonyEvans
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sun, 15. Jan 12, 05:53
x4

Post by TonyEvans » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 23:55

I think people are forgetting that the Gravity effect also helps prevent collisions with smaller ships. Either that or their impact damage was taken off. It created a kind of "well" that would divert incoming small craft, but in a way that didn't make them behave weirdly.

User avatar
Killjaeden
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sun, 3. Sep 06, 18:19
x3tc

Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 18. Apr 18, 18:24

Nope they just switched off damage from collisions because they apparently couldnt manage to make better AI navigation (despite writing about how they improved AI navigation mid XR development at some developer conference if memory serves right)
[ external image ]
X-Tended TC Mod Team Veteran.
Modeller of X3AP Split Acinonyx, Split Drake, Argon Lotan, Teladi Tern. My current work:
Image

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”