Save Game System

[Nanook]

I like the "save & exit" function some games have. It temp-saves the current state, exits the game and after reload deletes the savegame again.

That's ok for a straight forward shooter, not for something like te X games.

Please tell me, how so?...

Because it doesn't allow the player to experiment. X games are so complex that being forced to follow a linear path, which is what your savegame option would be, is just way to restrictive. There's a simple answer - allow the player to decide if they wish to save or not, you know, player choice. If you don't have the self control to not save/reload, that's your problem, not everyone else's.

Oh, and your premise that using save/reload is cheating is nonsense. There's no such thing as "cheating" in this kind of single player game.

[Silla]

I want to option to play an 'ironman' mode or something. I want to be forced to accept defeat or loss of assets (I said option, I am not asking to remove save load for those that want it).
Do not tell me the old 'if you dont like it dont use it' arguement, because that is a terrible arguement. If that was the case no developer would have ever made an ironman mode, becuase people can just choose to not reload? All games would have 'press X for godmode' because... just dont use it?

Options please.

EDIT: Oh, there it is...

In this case, however, being able to save and reload at any time, it satisfies both types of players...

No, it does not. I am one of those players and im saying that it doesnt.

Totally agree an ironman mode should be part of the game. I mean ...honestly how hard can it be to have auto save timely and an auto save when leaving the game while deactivating buttons for save and load?

As said.... options!

Same goes for the option to be only able to save when on stations or all the time or as in ironman no manual save options at all.

[Nanook]

That's not really 'ironman' though. A player can simply copy the autosave to a different folder when they quit the game and save it for potential future use. So it would still come down to self control, wouldn't it?

[Seanchaidh]

An ironman option where, instead of game over, you get teleported out of destroyed assets and continue after suffering that asset loss could be cool. The way saves currently work definitely encourages saving and reloading after any hardship. There is a huge amount of distance between that level of forgiving and "dead is dead".

[LittleBird]

That's not really 'ironman' though. A player can simply copy the autosave to a different folder when they quit the game and save it for potential future use. So it would still come down to self control, wouldn't it?

Just hide the save file.
And if the player uses hex edit or other stuff to relocate it or writes a mod that makes a save file - just in case of course - ... then there was no self control in the first place

@Seanchaidh
You mean instead of "dead is dead" it should be "lost is lost"? Basically autosave after losing ship or station? Interesting. I see some problems if you fight in a big battle but nothing unsolvable I think.

[Tamina]

I like the "save & exit" function some games have. It temp-saves the current state, exits the game and after reload deletes the savegame again.

That's ok for a straight forward shooter, not for something like te X games.

Please tell me, how so?...

Because it doesn't allow the player to experiment. X games are so complex that being forced to follow a linear path, which is what your savegame option would be, is just way to restrictive. There's a simple answer - allow the player to decide if they wish to save or not, you know, player choice. If you don't have the self control to not save/reload, that's your problem, not everyone else's.

Oh, and your premise that using save/reload is cheating is nonsense. There's no such thing as "cheating" in this kind of single player game.

I meant additionally to insurance and auto-save options on stations.
Thrill and danger is what it is called, and it can be quite a satisfying rollercoaster Tell me you wouldn't press X-for-God-mode at one point when you find yourself in an increasingly dangerous situation.
Instead of gratification you only receive the inevitable wisdom that all you do is useless and your life is meaningless. Why still work for anything if you had what you wanted all along?
When we have the choice we go the easy route.

[Axeface]

When we have the choice we go the easy route.

Yep. And if you actually think about it save and reload IS god mode, there is no situation the player cant overcome in a save-load game, ever.

[Fleabum]

This is down to the playstyle of the player, and if you want to play one life, then they don't reload any possible saved games. I don't see you need an option for disabling saved games, if you want to play like that, just don't use saved games... simples.

Now having some sort of middle ground, whereas you lose resources (ship, credits, etc) in the event of dying, that might be an interesting combination. One way to implement it could be that you have to have a clone stored on a starbase that gets activated in the event of your main 'shell' dying. These clones would have to be purchased and have a ongoing maintenance cost associated with them.

Regards
Flea

[StoneLegionYT]

I decided to throw out a random idea. What about Ironman mode? The idea is you can't save in normal conditions you have to do it via a more complex or challenging condition that suits the more hardcore crowed.

[Nanook]

When we have the choice we go the easy route.

Yep. And if you actually think about it save and reload IS god mode, there is no situation the player cant overcome in a save-load game, ever.

Oh, this is so not true. I see posts, especially from newer players, all the time bemoaning the fact that either something bad happened and they hadn't saved for a long time, or they saved over their only savegame and realized that something bad had happened previously that they now can't recover from.

Additionally, games have bugs. If one happens and you don't notice it at the time (which happened a lot in some of the TC and AP plots, btw), what happens when you can't restore from a previous save? Starting over is what happens, and that frustrates and turns players off the game. Somehow I don't think that is in Egosoft's best interest.

So no, it's not 'god mode'. It's a feature that allows a player to keep on playing their game after something bad or unfortunate happened, whether it was caused by the game or the player. X games are long term building games. They aren't really meant as an adrenaline rush game. If that's what someone is looking for, then there are many, many other options for that kind of gameplay. It's a 4X game, not a shooter.

You want an 'ironman' style, then be an 'ironman' with your self control and don't use savegames. Egosoft shouldn't have to be your nanny.

[Tamina]

@Nanook
So they should consider lack of quality into their design decisions? May I suggest an X-for-God-Mode button again for the case when the savegame system breaks and I have to redo a lot of stuff?

They should also include a boardgame for when the game does not start up in the first couple of months. Work-around: "Play boardgames until fixed".

[SirNukes]

You want an 'ironman' style, then be an 'ironman' with your self control and don't use savegames.

+1 on that. If someone is playing mediumcore (only reload on death) or hardcore (never reload) style, and something bad happens or they die in game, there are three ways the player can respond:
1) Accept the loss and move on.
2) Realize that the loss ruins too much of the fun and reload the last save, dialing back the ___core commitment.
3) Judge the loss as not legit (maybe because of a bug or crash or similar) and reload the last save, but otherwise continuing with the commitment.

In any case, a game with backed up saves conforms to the player's desire. It's really not all that hard to play mediumcore style as long as the losses feel legit; that is my standard style for X3. Hardcore is somewhat more difficult but doable; the furthest I've ever gone was to delete a 100 hour old psuedo-hardcore Guild Wars character (after misjudging how far away my monks were).

If you really really want the game to be mean and delete your save when you load up, you could just write your own launcher to do that automatically. A few lines of Python code, along with an ingame script to signal when a savegame finishes loading, and you can recreate the dead-is-dead mode of X3, complete with losing all progress on a game crash.

Now having some sort of middle ground, whereas you lose resources (ship, credits, etc) in the event of dying, that might be an interesting combination.

This would be a great thing for Egosoft to add in, since the player can't easily mimic it. Though I would flavor it as an emergency transport, since the X games already have that tech. Give it to NPCs and it can even boost immersion, helping explain why transport pilots are so willing to fly through pirate sectors.

[nightphreak]

Maybe an option to play without quick save as a play style... though i'm not sure how that would work with the coding if it is too difficult they will probably just leave it how they have it.

[Axeface]

This is down to the playstyle of the player, and if you want to play one life, then they don't reload any possible saved games. I don't see you need an option for disabling saved games, if you want to play like that, just don't use saved games... simples.
Flea

Nope, not 'simples'. Christ.

Like I said before, Im one of those players and I want an ironman option. Im so, so tired of people telling me what I think.

[Fleabum]

Like I said before, Im one of those players and I want an ironman option. Im so, so tired of people telling me what I think.

You want to play with no saves, then don't use them. Its not telling you what to think, its telling you how to achieve what you want with the system as it is. It really is that simple.

As to others who suggest disabling autosaving, this was an option in X3.

Regards
Flea

[Axeface]

You want to play with no saves, then don't use them. Its not telling you what to think, its telling you how to achieve what you want with the system as it is. It really is that simple.

As to others who suggest disabling autosaving, this was an option in X3.

Lol, incredible.
Do I need to spell it out for you and the rest like you? I dont think like you, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. I want option 'A'. Option A WILL NOT effect you, people like you, or your save/load game in any way. It is not a design fundamental, it WILL NOT change the game for YOU. It will change the game for ME. It is NOT asking for no Jumpdrives or no Highways.

This is not an arguement, it is you telling me to think like you. What I want will NOT effect you or your playstyle in any way. It would be an option at gamestart for ME and others like ME.

And, excuse me.... But how on earth can you say in another thread...

Some things are black and white.

They are liked by some, disliked by others, you make an object white, well I don't like white I like black. So, let’s keep everyone happy, make it so you can choose it white or black.

...and then say this here?

Just try to understand.

I am not like you, I dont think like you - and I am so tired of arguing this point on dozens of forums with people droaning on with the same reply... "Dont like it dont use it".... ENOUGH.

Also, I played XCOM 2 on Ironman mode. 90% of twitch streamers did too. It is something people want and find interesting. The game is exactly the same with it enabled, yet FUNDAMENTALLY different for people that WANT THAT MODE. Do you understand?

[ajime]

This is turning into the single vs multiple ships again. Anyways we can express our pleasure or displeasure on a decision which ES will evaluate and take based on their cost and benefit for implementation. Im sure they have a team to evaluate such continuity/trend management. i think its unfair to tell others how they should like the game to be played. Even if they made a poor design decision, it should be respected as we have no idea what they have gone through to reach that juncture, and we could always blame them

[Fleabum]

@ajime I agree with you, and I am sure the released game will be far different to the snippets we have seen so far. For all we know the things discussed on the forums might already have been discussed, added or discounted to the game design team. All I hope for is that anything I dislike can be modded, and if not, life is to short to worry about it.

Do I need to spell it out for you and the rest like you? I dont think like you, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. I want option 'A'

You need to wind your neck in matey, ‘like me and the rest like me?’ Then you proceed to use aggressive tone and numerous capitals like some child trying to get a point across thinking capitals emphasize their point. It doesn’t, in fact it does the complete opposite.

I never said the an ‘ironman’ option would change the game for me, I stated a simple fact, if you want to play a game as one life, aka, ironman, and it has auto saves, all you do is have some self-control and don’t use saves. This is not the argument you seem to make of it, passion is good, but not when used incorrectly.

I think you did miss the point of my post in the other thread though. Your (part)quote had nothing to do with what I have said, which is how you can already achieve what you are looking for within the game design as it stands. If your basing it on the full post I made in the other thread, then you need to take a step back and ask yourself this, “If I were a game developer and I get asked for a function in my game that already exists if the player has self-control, would you divert time and resources adding it?” Maybe if enough people requested it, but it would be bottom of the pile in suggestions.

In X3, you could have just set the autosave toggle to no and you would have your lack of autosaves. I would love to see this option in X4 not from the point of one life, but from the point of system stutters in X3 every time you enter a station caused by the autosaves.

If I was going to play one life, then I personally would just ignore any (auto)saves when I died I would restart. If you feel there must be a toggle to help with your lack of self-control, then that’s your opinion and I accept that’s your view. Please accept this is mine.

Regards
Flea

[Alan Phipps]

Enough personal bickering and comments thanks. If this carries on the thread will be locked so stay on topic please.

[LittleBird]

@Fleabum
First you have ironmodes in many other games. So your self-control argument does not work. Obviously many developer noticed this lack of self-control and added the function.
Second adding an ironmode is easy doing. It is not a question about time ressource it is about doing it or not.

Well X-games are not known for stability so an ironmode should have a copy of one save before I think. So if your death was the games fault you are not loosing everything.