Russian poisoning

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 20:41

Critic of Putin found dead

So, if this is also linked to the above incident, what will the UK do? Anything? What can it do?

And, if another incident occurs, how will the citizen's of the UK feel about it? Will they think that their government can't "protect them?" That's a dangerous thing and promotes instability.

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Post by Observe » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 20:43

Unfortunate the daughter got caught up in it, but Isn't this sort of thing normal for cloak and dagger operations? The guy was a spy and a double-agent at that. Why wouldn't the Russians try to apply the 'dagger' to him. I understand the public outrage, but I wonder about how sincere is the government rhetoric.

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 20:56

Observe wrote:Unfortunate the daughter got caught up in it, but Isn't this sort of thing normal for cloak and dagger operations? ..
Maybe in "Cold War Spy Movies," but these, if both cases are related, are tactical assassinations deep in the territory of a sovereign nation, not the termination of a spy in enemy territory. (Besides, captured spies are more valuable than dead ones.) "Spies" do retire, after all, and, well, if everyone went around holding grudges and assassinating retired spies and their families, nobody would ever want to become a spy, right?

These are "revenge killings," if related. At the very least, the first one is a revenge killing nat associated with any current activity. It's just "murder", not a "state action."

If true, a country is murdering the citizens of another country within that other country's own borders... That's just plain "wrong."

It's not that it's some huge state scandal or national security issue, it's the perception the citizens of the UK are going to take away from these events. For Putin, it's actually advantageous if this is connected with Russian state activity or even himself, directly. It's a win/win for him, despite whatever sanctions or paper-rustling the UK responds with.

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Post by greypanther » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 21:10

Well, if it is decided without a doubt that Putin is the originator and sanctions are needed, the obvious one is for the England football team to pull out of the football World Cup. Putin is quite keen on them going ahead, without problems, by all accounts; so it seems the obvious way to get to him. For a few seconds anyway... :roll: He simply will not care about other sanctions even for a few seconds, other than to make Russian domestic political gain from them.

Lets face it, it is unlikely England will win anyway! :D
Last edited by greypanther on Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:14, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Antilogic » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 21:10

Observe wrote:Unfortunate the daughter got caught up in it, but Isn't this sort of thing normal for cloak and dagger operations? The guy was a spy and a double-agent at that. Why wouldn't the Russians try to apply the 'dagger' to him. I understand the public outrage, but I wonder about how sincere is the government rhetoric.
Maybe if you wanna kill a former spy, don't do it by unleashing chemical weapons in a populated area?

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Post by Rive » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 21:38

Antilogic wrote:Maybe if you wanna kill a former spy, don't do it by unleashing chemical weapons in a populated area?
Yeah. Dagger or gun: that's neat, clean, according to the rules of the game. It'll make it to the books if done well.

But with a chemical weapon, in a populated area, amongst the civilians - that's not the spy game.

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Post by Observe » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:15

Rive wrote:
Antilogic wrote:Maybe if you wanna kill a former spy, don't do it by unleashing chemical weapons in a populated area?
Yeah. Dagger or gun: that's neat, clean, according to the rules of the game. It'll make it to the books if done well.

But with a chemical weapon, in a populated area, amongst the civilians - that's not the spy game.
True. Although do we know if they were contaminated at the scene where they were found, or could the nerve agent been administered elsewhere, but they didn't fall unconscious until later in the public place?

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Post by red assassin » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:18

Also, remember that Skripal was formally pardoned before being exchanged for Anna Chapman and company. Seems unusual per the traditional cloak and dagger games to kill someone who's been pardoned and swapped - it disincentives agreeing to any future spy swaps for a start.
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Post by Observe » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:20

red assassin wrote:...Seems unusual per the traditional cloak and dagger games to kill someone who's been pardoned and swapped - it disincentives agreeing to any future spy swaps for a start.
That's a good point. The Russians didn't do it?

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Post by euclid » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:35

Observe wrote:
red assassin wrote:...Seems unusual per the traditional cloak and dagger games to kill someone who's been pardoned and swapped - it disincentives agreeing to any future spy swaps for a start.
That's a good point. The Russians didn't do it?
I don't thinks so, not only because it's too obvious but it also makes no sense. The questions is: Who would benefit from such an act?

Several candidates comes to mind.

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Post by felter » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:43

Observe wrote:
Rive wrote:
Antilogic wrote:Maybe if you wanna kill a former spy, don't do it by unleashing chemical weapons in a populated area?
Yeah. Dagger or gun: that's neat, clean, according to the rules of the game. It'll make it to the books if done well.

But with a chemical weapon, in a populated area, amongst the civilians - that's not the spy game.
True. Although do we know if they were contaminated at the scene where they were found, or could the nerve agent been administered elsewhere, but they didn't fall unconscious until later in the public place?
The nerve agent was not administered where they were found as they were in a pub and a restaurant beforehand and traces of the nerve agent were found in both of them. Everyone who was in either of the two have been told to wash the clothing they were wearing in case of contamination. There have also been 35 other reported cases of possible human contamination reported to hospitals, though 34 of them have been given the all clear and the 35th is being monitored as an outpatient. This could easily have been a pretty serious attack.

While Skripal may have been an old school spy, it has been reported that he still worked for MI6, though that cannot be verified. So it is possible he was still active in the spying game.
I'm not saying he is a Russian asset, I'm saying he sat on his asset when he was supposed to be confronting Putin.
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Post by red assassin » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 23:07

Observe wrote:That's a good point. The Russians didn't do it?
Wouldn't be the first international norm they've violated in recent years. Perhaps they decided disincentivising other would-be spies is more valuable - it's not like there have been many spy swaps recently, and I'm not sure they benefited much from getting Chapman and company home.

Any culprit would require a) access to Russian chemical weapons and b) a relaxed attitude to the risk of getting caught and attributed - if this wasn't the Russians and whoever it was gets caught, they're going to have NATO *and* the Russians spectacularly pissed off at them, which isn't a great place to be.
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Post by Chips » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 23:27

euclid wrote:
Observe wrote:
red assassin wrote:...Seems unusual per the traditional cloak and dagger games to kill someone who's been pardoned and swapped - it disincentives agreeing to any future spy swaps for a start.
That's a good point. The Russians didn't do it?
I don't thinks so, not only because it's too obvious but it also makes no sense. The questions is: Who would benefit from such an act?

Several candidates comes to mind.
Curious opinion. "They can't have done it, it's too obvious ... others did it".

Wait to hear what is said tomorrow before jumping to conclusions based upon nothing other than personal uninformed hypothesis?

Also, "makes no sense", upon what basis does this "make no sense"? It makes perfect sense.

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Post by Antilogic » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 01:36

It's overwhelmingly clear Russia did this.

If there is any other possibility someone needs to come up with some evidence other than not really feeling like it was them.

If that evidence is found and presented then cool. Otherwise it is very, very much beyond reasonable doubt that Russia is behind this.

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Post by eladan » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 02:59

red assassin wrote:Any culprit would require a) access to Russian chemical weapons and b) a relaxed attitude to the risk of getting caught and attributed - if this wasn't the Russians and whoever it was gets caught, they're going to have NATO *and* the Russians spectacularly pissed off at them, which isn't a great place to be.
Yup. And the Russians have only given their usual "Who? Us?" innocent routine, no concern about somebody potentially having stolen nerve gas from them, or that somebody might be trying to frame them. So of course it's the Russians.

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