No Mini Games please

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lyubarskiy
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Post by lyubarskiy » Fri, 9. Feb 18, 19:27

Killjaeden wrote:
BlackDemon wrote:I think if they went a bit more in depth with a minigame like for conversations or hacking it could be much more interesting and stimulating, but there is always a problem of making it too "difficult" or frustrating for some players, whilst being taxing and challenging for other players.
[...]
If it was thought about carefully, and avoiding those pitfalls above, I'd definitely be up for more minigames for certain tasks like hacks etc. :)
I agree with that, BUT, considering there are already so many interesting gameplay systems i don't think it's worth to spend considerable time on designing minigames, when the core gameplay (trading, fighting, management,...) has so many things that could be improved and added and also requires design work to make it good. Minigames are not worth it in comparison imo. I rather have some RPG player or NPC stats and RNG elements in things like conversations (ala Morrowind) and hacking than repetitive minigames. While not player skill driven, it at least allows to have notable progression and no matter what - still offer uncertainty (-> cross reference to "more ways to lose").
Agreed. Looking at other X titles, I never felt like something was missing, in terms of mini games. Looking at XR, i felt like mini games were unnecessary and bloaty without adding anything to core of the game or it's enjoyment/.

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Post by lyubarskiy » Fri, 9. Feb 18, 19:30

Greenhorn wrote:Hmmm,i don't know players,.. Minigames are a good distraction ,,too get away from it all,from basic stuff like, repetive stuff like, trading/ building/ manging fleets/fighting..i wonder what do you do this time, walking in stations, ((benard said )) on twitter.something along the line of, being on an station will have purpose, not likely to be rebirths way with nothing to do ..I would like the ,((bbs lottery )) back,((black jack)).Getting mission to find a floating crate in space.,i would kinda see this on ,pirate stations.cartell stations.A player, thinking to himself that he can be in a station to feel safe, from trouble near by, while playing games, and during that time, watch the money role in from your auto trading npcs/stations factories projects,and training marines too. doing a couple of things while your not there? maybe. just some thoughts, what do you think?, do I have a point?.players and devs.bye all. :)
No, not side quest or other things to do. I mean, to unlock a terminal, please guess a password, make this line follow through gates to hack a computer. Stuff like that.

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Post by lyubarskiy » Fri, 9. Feb 18, 19:31

Lord Dakier wrote:No mini-games. Little short of gambling, space racing, eliminating the most enemies in a patrol, an arena and on purpose police chases from sector to sector I wouldn't have much interest in any forced games. Ones similar to those just listed could be a nice little way of making money if you're bored or want to try something different while you pass time.
Agreed but those are not mini games. Those are otehr things of core gameplay to do.

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Post by gbjbaanb » Sat, 10. Feb 18, 15:44

So basically NO Minigame at all but side-quests are fine.

Isn't that how X3 was - little missions to do X or Y, if you wanted to do and had the capability.

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Post by lyubarskiy » Mon, 12. Feb 18, 20:22

gbjbaanb wrote:So basically NO Minigame at all but side-quests are fine.

Isn't that how X3 was - little missions to do X or Y, if you wanted to do and had the capability.
Precisely. Game with features and missions and shit to do, but don't make me speed up or slowdown in the highway depending on who I am following for no apparent reason other than to make a "mini game of sorts".

Mini games are like those "press buttons" at specific times during a a fight for something to happen type deal that always suck.

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Post by Slashman » Tue, 13. Feb 18, 13:38

lyubarskiy wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:So basically NO Minigame at all but side-quests are fine.

Isn't that how X3 was - little missions to do X or Y, if you wanted to do and had the capability.
Precisely. Game with features and missions and shit to do, but don't make me speed up or slowdown in the highway depending on who I am following for no apparent reason other than to make a "mini game of sorts".

Mini games are like those "press buttons" at specific times during a a fight for something to happen type deal that always suck.
Those are called quick time events.
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Post by Skeeter » Tue, 13. Feb 18, 16:15

Ew for quick time events. I tryed a game called farrenheit it was suppose to a Adv game but was full of quick action events I couldn't enjoy the game. Never again.
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lyubarskiy
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Post by lyubarskiy » Tue, 13. Feb 18, 19:25

Slashman wrote:
lyubarskiy wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:So basically NO Minigame at all but side-quests are fine.

Isn't that how X3 was - little missions to do X or Y, if you wanted to do and had the capability.
Precisely. Game with features and missions and shit to do, but don't make me speed up or slowdown in the highway depending on who I am following for no apparent reason other than to make a "mini game of sorts".

Mini games are like those "press buttons" at specific times during a a fight for something to happen type deal that always suck.
Those are called quick time events.
Thank you! I knew there was a name for it.

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Post by spankahontis » Tue, 13. Feb 18, 23:17

Requiemfang wrote:
xapoc wrote:Add mini games to stations such as slot machines, poker, etc, that you can earn some extra cash from.
:o why though? I mean really it's easy to make credits in X-series games. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out either.

Because, not everyone wants to be a Miner, or a Pirate, or do the Stock Exchange.
Everyone has a preference, not everyone hates mini-games.
If done right? They can entertain, Rebirth was an example on how NOT to do it.
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Post by Requiemfang » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 05:27

spankahontis wrote:
Requiemfang wrote:
xapoc wrote:Add mini games to stations such as slot machines, poker, etc, that you can earn some extra cash from.
:o why though? I mean really it's easy to make credits in X-series games. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out either.

Because, not everyone wants to be a Miner, or a Pirate, or do the Stock Exchange.
Everyone has a preference, not everyone hates mini-games.
If done right? They can entertain, Rebirth was an example on how NOT to do it.
Finally someone responded! and yes that is very true, if minigames are done right they entertain and improve the game as a means to taking a break from the fight, trade, think, build part of the game.

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Post by Cabrelbeuk » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 11:06

If done right. As said, mini-games in Rebirth were boring.

It is actually a tough thing to design as :
-it needs to remain simple, but not too much and especially not to repetitive (otherwise it is boring).
-it needs to not be too present. It is a mini-game, not a core feature. Is not a thing that player will look for, but something to make some task more interesting.
-it needs to be correctly inserted into game. Not breaking the immersion. A mini-game during a discussion doesn't make any sense (Only QTE does, but it works only on plotted discussion and have to get a logical impact (stop the conversation, make an action, etc which make the situation evolve)).

A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.


Anyway, now i would like first the mains cores features to work fines than seeing those kind of things added badly.
You can add it in a DLC once the core game is settled (as Ego doesn't have the resources to add it in the vanilla game).
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 12:29

If I recall correctly there will still be some kind of hacking available in X4.

Hacking from my viewpoint will need some kind of mini-game.

Now hacking may require some level of skill (the more you hack the more skillful you become.) There may be different levels of hacking target that require you to acquire better skills, tools, hardware and software to be able to perform the hack.

So if hacking is anything like Rebirth, then station production, station storage,
station defences could all be potential hacking targets.

The hacking of ships might be something similar, disabling engines, weapons, shields, communications or ship storage.

So it might be more interesting if you could pick a target for a hack. So on a ship, disable the communications and then the engines. So that you have a ship unable to communicate or move ready for boarding say.
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Post by Slashman » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 13:46

Some examples of mini-games that I think fit well into the games they were designed for are the Detective Mode crime scene investigations in the Arkham Games as well as the ones involving reviewing camera footage for evidence.

I think the once I liked best though were the mingames involving the tricorder in Star Trek Elite Force 2. They REALLY fit the theme of the game and integrated with it in a natural way. I have yet to see similar min-games since in other games.
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Post by lyubarskiy » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 20:04

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:If I recall correctly there will still be some kind of hacking available in X4.

Hacking from my viewpoint will need some kind of mini-game.

Now hacking may require some level of skill (the more you hack the more skillful you become.) There may be different levels of hacking target that require you to acquire better skills, tools, hardware and software to be able to perform the hack.

So if hacking is anything like Rebirth, then station production, station storage,
station defences could all be potential hacking targets.

The hacking of ships might be something similar, disabling engines, weapons, shields, communications or ship storage.

So it might be more interesting if you could pick a target for a hack. So on a ship, disable the communications and then the engines. So that you have a ship unable to communicate or move ready for boarding say.
Problem with hacking mini games is that if you are forced to do it every time it's get annoying and tedious. No matter how much fun they are at the start. This is especially true in an an open ended sandbox game such as X4 series where you could spend thousands of hours. I would rather spend my time building fleets and controlling retrospect than playing the same mini game over and over.

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Post by Nanook » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 20:41

Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
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Post by Slashman » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 20:52

Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.

While I agree that if you are just inserting them for the sake of it, it is better to have none, if they integrate and fit well with the theme of the game and gameplay, they are just fine. Their purpose and execution should justify their existence.
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Post by Greenhorn » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 20:52

I agree with, nanook 100%.i want other things too do, to make money.Immersions please.bye all.
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Post by Nanook » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 20:56

Slashman wrote:
Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.....
You gave examples of how they fit into an adventure-style game, not a strategic/simulation style of game. What's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. :wink: Let me clarify. IMO, mini-games should never be a part of the core gameplay of any X game. Better? :P

If you don't believe me, just look at the most popular mods for Rebirth. The vast majority were ones that allowed the player to bypass those repetitive and boring minigames. If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
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Post by Jeraal » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 23:09

Nanook wrote:... If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
Who didn't? I couldn't wait to buy a new carrier JUST so I could outfit the fighters!

Seriously though, I hate required mini games. Optional, fine. If I feel like doing them I can. If not, I don't. I believe my hatred of them started with FF9. If memory serves, there was a point where you had to play that d##n card game and win a certain number of hands to progress.
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Post by Slashman » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 14:00

Nanook wrote:
Slashman wrote:
Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.....
You gave examples of how they fit into an adventure-style game, not a strategic/simulation style of game. What's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. :wink: Let me clarify. IMO, mini-games should never be a part of the core gameplay of any X game. Better? :P

If you don't believe me, just look at the most popular mods for Rebirth. The vast majority were ones that allowed the player to bypass those repetitive and boring minigames. If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
Putting words in my mouth does not make your point any more valid (I never claimed to like Rebirth's minigames in any form or fashion). There is no rule book for what should be in an X game.

Egosoft made a bunch of crappy minigames for Rebirth. That has no bearing on minigames as a whole being bad or good for X games.

And what difference does it make what the genre is if the minigame in question fits with the gameplay/lore. Zero difference.

And DUH mods were made to bypass the bad minigames. What a shock!

Now if your argument was "Egosoft can't make minigames worth crap and so they should not include them in X games", I would be more accepting, but blanket statements to the effect that including any minigame in X games is bad makes no sense.
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