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Using Hyperions as Traders ?
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Bill Huntington



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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 07:51    Post subject: Using Hyperions as Traders ? Reply with quote Print

I've used the Acinonyx to board 22 Hyperions, a few Atmos, a few Ariadnes, and assorted M6s. Soon I'll have enough Marines trained to 100 in both Fighting and Mechanical so I can board the Terran ships I want.

Traders make juicy targets if you're boarding a race's ships. When I start on the Terrans I can also start training my Traders. I've got all these Hyperions that I'm not using for anything. They're fast at 169 speed and have a cargo bay over 3000. My usual Caiman is only a little bigger.

Anyone try Hypes as LTs or UTs?


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 08:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I stopped using LT/UT some years ago, but before I did, I found that I had the best results using haulers variants (6000~8000 cargo capacities) - the smaller the hold, the faster I hit diminishing returns on my UT fleet, due to fuel-to-cargo considerations, as well as cargo-per-trip; going to SFXLs, though, didn't tend to give (in my experience) particularly better results than haulers, likely due to being beaten to too many trades because of their low speed.

Thus, although the Hyper has a freighter-grade cargo-bay and is fast, I don't think it would make an excellent UT (though probably not bad), but would likely make an excellent ST/LT. I don't recall whether UTs reserve a flat amount of fuel (in which case the available cargo capacity would suffer greatly on a hold this size), or is pro rata to the maximum capacity, but even in the latter situation, that then potentially reduces the operating range of the UT, forcing it to forgo lucrative deals on some occasions. Also, the player can't choose what wares a LT or UT trades in, so they include bulk-volume items, for which this size of cargo hold is NOT great.

My usual trade network revolves around the Hub (pardon the pun Razz ), using a fleet of CAGs and some CLS2s. I wouldn't use those Hypers for this in the general sense, though, as I think they would be mediocre at best. However, I WOULD use them (in this system, or pretty much any other) for moving small-volume, high-value goods - they would make ideal fetchers of weapons and shields and ammo for my HQ or other equipping station, for example, or for trading in high-tech goods. Since CAG and CLS can be configured in detail, it is possible to restrict such a ship to handling only wares of appropriate "economic density".

They would probably make decent CLS2 ships for specific, low-volume goods, but again, not for anything moved in bulk quantities (energy, minerals, or agricultural crops.)

Well, that's what I think, at any rate Smile


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Jimmy C





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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 21:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Unfortunately, you're not allowed to use CAG on M6s. I tried to for some narcotics before, but it just wouldn't let me.
I used TMs for high-value cargo instead.

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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 23:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jimmy C wrote:
Unfortunately, you're not allowed to use CAG on M6s. I tried to for some narcotics before, but it just wouldn't let me.
I used TMs for high-value cargo instead.

Interesting... The Bonus Pack documentation lists a broad range of compatible ships. Remember that CAG requires both TCS1 and TCS2 - the first is built into TS ships by default, so only TCS2 need be bought, whereas in other ship types you need to install both. However, this includes TMs (which I also use for some valuable goods, as my "armoured transports" - better shields, weapons, and speed) so I doubt you overlooked that. I guess I have something else to fiddle with in-game, thanks. Smile Personally, I have also used TPs (on account of their better speed, specifically Toucan Haulers) to move weed in a recentish Teladi game.


EDIT: for reference, here's a direct copy-paste of the relevant excerpt, in case it offers any clues:

4.4.1 Ship Equipment
 A fighter, bomber, corvette or transport ship (M3, M4, M5, M8, M6, TM, TS, TP or TL), with homebase set
 Navigation Command Software MK1
 Trade Command Software MK1
 Trade Command Software MK2
 Fight Command Software MK1 (optional: changes CAG behaviour when encountering enemies)
 Fight Command Software MK2 (optional: changes CAG behaviour when encountering enemies, in addition to Fight Command Software MK1)
 Jumpdrive (optional: can be used after special training course)


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delray



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PostPosted: Wed, 3. Jan 18, 00:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

They suck as traders. You'll mostly haul energy, ores and food with UT/CAG. That requires space bigger than pitiful 3k.


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Jimmy C





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PostPosted: Fri, 5. Jan 18, 15:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Interesting... The Bonus Pack documentation lists a broad range of compatible ships.


I went back to check again, and it seems CAG does work on M6s after all. I'm not sure why it didn't work before, can't remember what I missed now.

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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Fri, 5. Jan 18, 19:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jimmy C wrote:
RAVEN.myst wrote:
Interesting... The Bonus Pack documentation lists a broad range of compatible ships.


I went back to check again, and it seems CAG does work on M6s after all. I'm not sure why it didn't work before, can't remember what I missed now.

I've had cases with CLS where I had forgotten/neglected to fit Nav software, and the option wasn't available, and CAG also requires it - it was probably some such minor yet crucial oversight, easy enough to do.


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PostPosted: Fri, 5. Jan 18, 22:01    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I like hyperions as Cag's as i'm just unlikely to lose them to small pirate/xenon raids ect. The cost may put some people off but come on, we're not here to be a scrooge. If a million credit station needs a billion credits worth of hyperion freighters who cares? You know you'll be happy with the finished result and you'll be unlikely to be continually replacing them. I always fully arm them with at least Pac/Hept so they can actually defeat the smaller raiding parties themselves in conjunction with thier drones meaning increased sector security too.


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Sat, 6. Jan 18, 00:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

devilofbelfast wrote:
I like hyperions as Cag's as i'm just unlikely to lose them to small pirate/xenon raids ect. The cost may put some people off but come on, we're not here to be a scrooge.

Well, in fact, by that logic, I don't mind losing the occasional CAG freighter (though it happens SOOOO seldom, if properly configured.) I may lose about 3~4 in a 100 haulers - I really don't care about that, and simply renumber 79 to 42 and move on. The haulers, with their usable cargo space (maxcargo minus overheads such as shields, weapons, jump fuel) of around 3X or more that of the Hyper, make me money almost that many times faster. I've actually tried using Springblossoms as merchantmen - even smaller cargobay but much higher speed. On paper, cargospace X speed gives a good "freight coefficient" - until you factor in the overhead space requirements, and it really doesn't work so well.

The high speed of the Hyper does mean it will lose fewer trade races, but for hauling bulk freight, it really isn't effective. For high-value low-volume wares, sure - it can make a great weapon/shield buyer for a PHQ, or a missile fetcher, though I'd rather just use TMs for this job (Military Transports - kinda a perfect fit thematically, too Very Happy ) The supposed "added security" of a corvette as a freighter is a total non-issue (and, frankly, illusory) to me: I simply almost never lose freighters, it's really extremely rare, and on those blue-moon occasions that I do, my added profitability makes it a trivial matter. Furthermore, most of the freighter losses can be attributed to something like a Q getting up to its omnipotent tricks, and no Hyperion is going to survive an OoS round against one of those anyway.

Just for clarity, some context: I understand that some players have been playing the same old game for years on end, and have billions coming out their ears. Not me: I start new gamestarts very often - I usually don't even get to a billion, as by that time I've already exhausted all I'm going to get out of that game (lording it around with a massive fleet that can't find any challenging opposition is not my idea of fun, and neither is raking in billions for its own sake - the credits must come in so I can spend them on something.) A playthrough for me typically lasts 1~2 weeks, then I'm off to play the next concept I've cooked up, complete with strict self-restrictions in order to limit my development and make it more challenging. Therefore, my in-game financial decisions have to be optimal and rational - even if I didn't consider the Hyperion a way overpowered ship that upsets my game balance by making me "win" too fast, that's not even the issue: by the time I have access to Hyperions my Hub+CAG trade-star is up and running, and turning over millions per hour - all with TS ships that suffer insignificant attrition. That being said, even if I did get to a bored point where I wanted to kit out my fleet with excess, Hyperions would not make it into my merchant fleet, as they are not best suited to the task - I would rather then specialise my bulk haulers to be TS+ vessels, maybe (unlikely, but more likely than Hyperions!), while my imaginary uber-fleet of Hyperions would theoretically become "fighters" hosted on Arans, or some such.


PS: Properly trained and equipped CAGs are almost immune to pirate bands - they drop their drones and jump out. Consistent mismanagement of them CAN get them dead, but it takes quite a lot of indifference and MANY notifications in the log to let that happen - and a long time. Usually, they'll just wind up waiting out the presence of the aggressor in the shelter of a station they've docked at, having coffee and sending periodic mails about "the attacker is still near - I need help".


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Bill Huntington



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PostPosted: Sat, 6. Jan 18, 07:46    Post subject: thanks for the replies Reply with quote Print

Thanks for the replies, all! I just had these Hypes sitting around so there was no extra cost but the normal software.

I've noticed that they progress faster through the training ranks. Perhaps twice as fast.


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Sat, 6. Jan 18, 08:56    Post subject: Re: thanks for the replies Reply with quote Print

Bill Huntington wrote:
I've noticed that they progress faster through the training ranks. Perhaps twice as fast.

Presumably that's if training them as STs/UTs - CAG and CLS training is based purely on time spent flying, so the only way to get a marginal speed-up in training time with those is to use slower ships, so they spend more time flying relative to the time they spend standing down at stops between trips - cargo hold size is irrelevant to CAG/CLS training; whereas if I recall correctly, TCS3 training is profit-based - in which case a faster ship could possibly train a bit faster by being beaten less often to profitable trades, but the smaller cargo hold would likely offset much of that; personally, I would attribute the perceived faster training to observer bias, to be perfectly honest.


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lighters





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PostPosted: Tue, 9. Jan 18, 10:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

3300 cargo space x 169 m/s is a decent ratio, but nowhere near Drake's 12800 x 92 m/s. I guess Hyperion's incredible shielding may be of use if you have many enemies in your playthough.

The only use of M6s at STs I've found is setting up some Springblossoms in Terran space. They don't generate that much profit, but do help the economy.

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Nuit





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PostPosted: Tue, 9. Jan 18, 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Most has already been said.

For independent trading (UT/ST) they are not that great because of their limited cargo space. Yes it's 3333 units on paper but to be honest if you run something like a Hyperion as a trader then it's because of it's defense capabilities. Which means: full OOS-combat-worthy loadout. Which reduces the the actual cargo capacity significantly.

But what they are quite good for is to operate as high risk transports (Dockmanager, etc.) or as you already recognised yourself: as training vessels.

Especialy to get your rookie traders past the point where they learn to fully utilize their drones and jumpdrive for getting out of trouble.
This goes quite well, but I doubt you will ever put all of your 22 Hyperions to Use that way.

So still plenty left for other uses: My Favorite: As "Fighter Wing" for the ARAN.


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PostPosted: Tue, 9. Jan 18, 22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

In no-jumpdrive play, standard TS ships tend to get popped by pirates a lot more often, plus the long travel times increase the rate of missed deals. Hyperion traders make more sense under that playstyle, though Spingblossoms fill the role beter. A Spingy can get a good chunk of its hull blasted off when passing a pirate M6 group and still have enough speed to escape. In my games, I would tend to use the Hyperions to patrol trade lanes.

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